Would a "-shield, +health" mod be too powerful?

[NIkuno]

I got to thinking of this a corrupted type mod, taking away all shields to boost health (or armor for that matter), and of course synergizing with Hunter Adrenaline and Rage. With that in mind, would it be too powerful? Perhaps it could be more like the new Power Donation?

I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[krc473]

Given how useful shields are, this mod might be too powerful. There is no frame I regularly play that benefits from shields. It depends how much extra health or armour you get though. Losing all shields for 2k health is OP, losing them for 50 health is not.

[MatthewGuyson]

Would be neat sure

Edited October 27, 2018 by MatthewGuyson
Misread

[Azlen]

I've mentioned this for a while now and I think it'd be awesome. The balance is the biggest point that would have to be refined. Obviously something like -100% shields, +health = to that amount is waaaay too ridiculous. Maybe something like 10-20% of that amount, or lesser than 100% of shields removed but more health gained.

[Azlen]

5 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

How to make inaros more broken. Ill take it!

He has no shields, thus would gain no benefit.

[Naftal]

1 minute ago, Azlen said:

He has no shields, thus would gain no benefit.

That's not how corrupted mods work.

[Azlen]

Just now, Naftal said:

That's not how corrupted mods work.

Lol, if it reduces shields and then gives you an amount of health based on said shields removed, please explain how that's not how they work?

[Lactamid]

Also depends on stats. I.e. if you have -20% shields for +40% health.

Volt:
Shield: 150/450 @ -30/ 90
Health: 100/300 @ +40/120

Ember:
Shield: 100/300 @ -20/60
Health: 100/300  @ +40/120

Valkyr: 
Shield: 50/150 @ -10/30
Health: 100/300 @ +40/120

[trst]

I'm always in favor of more corrupted type mods.

As far as -shield/+health I think it'd be most interesting (and less excessive on certain frames) if it was a conversion instead of a +%.

Something like: "Converts 100% of Shields into 25/50/75/100/125% Health". This way you can just outright turn high shield frames into high health frames but with no shields.

 

I'd like to think it wouldn't be that overpowered as the frames which would benefit the most also have the lowest armor values. However the ability to be constantly procing rage/adrenaline and to maintain your health through allies, mods, or Arcanes would just make these frames literally have infinite energy.

edit: If shield gating was ever added then I think it would be a fair trade to lose (what was supposed to be) their best survival tool just for more health.

Edited October 27, 2018 by trst

[[DE]Momaw]

Personally I do not think health needs any more help.  Health is protected by armor, it's restored by Lifestrike, Healing Return, Rejuv, operator arcanes, an operator ability, syndicate procs, healing orbs, 10 different warframe powers, the Furis.... 

Shields are underpowered, so going the other way would make a lot more sense: Sacrifice some health to increase your shields.  We need gameplay mechanics to make shields more attractive, not even more mechanics to bolster warframe health which is already the way people choose to go.

(Consider the fact that everybody knows how to use high health/high armor warframes....But did you know that Revenant has the highest shield stat in the game? And literally nobody cares because shields are that bad?)

Edited October 27, 2018 by Momaw

[Azlen]

1 minute ago, trst said:

"Converts 100% of Shields into 25/50/75/100/125% Health".

This is the best terminology to clarify what we'll most likely get should this mod ever come out. There's no way it'd just give you flat x amount of health. That then becomes just a health mod to shieldless frames. DE is much smarter than that. It almost certainly would be get more if you give more. These numbers are faaar too high, but you get the point.

[Naftal]

Just now, Momaw said:

We need gameplay mechanics to make shields more attractive, not even more mechanics to bolster warframe health which is already the way people choose to go.

Most important would be removing shield ignore mechanics from certain damage types. Both enemy and our shields need a buff and this would help.

[[DE]Momaw]

2 minutes ago, Naftal said:

Most important would be removing shield ignore mechanics from certain damage types. Both enemy and our shields need a buff and this would help.

I agree.  In every discussion about "Shields need help" somebody will say "But toxin and slash!".  Plus it makes a total joke of the Corpus that we can literally ignore their primary defensive stat if we want to.

[Rekkou]

Technically it's corrupted mods, but let's admit it, the reason why you want it because it offers more benefits than flaw to warframes like Inaros or Valkyr. So it should not exist

A proper health corrupted mods would be something like +health -energy or +health -power strength 

[(PSN)Pizza_Parker]

well, i do like the idea, but shouldnt corrupted mods give you a bad effect in return for a good one?

- shield isnt a big deal at all since enemies can strip it in 1 shot at high levels.

there are no side effects.

1 minute ago, Rekkou said:

A proper health corrupted mods would be something like +health -energy or +health -power strength 

100% this.

[trst]

11 minutes ago, Azlen said:

This is the best terminology to clarify what we'll most likely get should this mod ever come out. There's no way it'd just give you flat x amount of health. That then becomes just a health mod to shieldless frames. DE is much smarter than that. It almost certainly would be get more if you give more. These numbers are faaar too high, but you get the point.

I was assuming that the highest shield frames were also the low armor ones, boy was I wrong.

The three highest base shield frames (at rank 30) are Revenant, Frost Prime, and Hydroid Prime. Who also have 100, 300, and 250 armor respectively (and 300 base health).

It does look like we need shields buffed otherwise such a mod, even at much lower values, would just turn several already tanky frames into Inaros.

[Azlen]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Pizza_Parker said:

well, i do like the idea, but shouldnt corrupted mods give you a bad effect in return for a good one?

- shield isnt a big deal at all since enemies can strip it in 1 shot at high levels.

there are no side effects.

100% this.

Technically -shields is a bad effect. It is removing stats. Just because you want it to happen, doesn't make it not a bad effect.

-duration is a benefit for a Nidus Larvae build. -strength is a benefit for a Speed Nova build. That doesn't make it not a bad effect.
So -shields is a totally fair corrupted mod negative.

[(PSN)Pizza_Parker]

1 minute ago, Azlen said:

Technically -shields is a bad effect. It is removing stats. Just because you want it to happen, doesn't make it not a bad effect.

-duration is a benefit for a Nidus Larvae build. -strength is a benefit for a Speed Nova build. That doesn't make it not a bad effect.
So -shields is a totally fair corrupted mod negative.

ok but unlike duration and strengh shields are not usefull on high levels.

its not really a fair comparison when shields are just useless either way.

after all you dont see builds focusing on shields like you see with duration and strengh.

[stormy505]

tbh I think shields should be buffed so we actually have a reason to not use this mod. Since other corrupted mods take away something useful.

[Methanoid]

Just now, Azlen said:

Lol, if it reduces shields and then gives you an amount of health based on said shields removed, please explain how that's not how they work?

because corrupted mods dont buff 1 thing only when the nerfed stat is adjusted/satisfied, they are all a straight up buff to 1 thing, nerf to another without care to any requirements.

[SenariousNex]

Inaros says hi.

[Azlen]

40 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

because corrupted mods dont buff 1 thing only when the nerfed stat is adjusted/satisfied, they are all a straight up buff to 1 thing, nerf to another without care to any requirements.

Only because such a use-case doesn't exist yet. There's no reason that wouldn't be the case. And i'd argue anything OTHER than a conversion effect wouldn't make sense. The parameters you are putting on corrupted mods, i'd say is false. The only "rule" they have, is add one thing, subtract another. No other specifics of how they have to go about it.

[NIkuno]

I leave for a little bit and this turns into an awesome discussion. 

1 hour ago, trst said:

However the ability to be constantly procing rage/adrenaline and to maintain your health through allies, mods, or Arcanes would just make these frames literally have infinite energy.

I'll be honest, this was pretty much the idea behind it. Particularly for my most used frame, Oberon. I love healing and do indeed use the Operator skill tree associated, but getting the right mod set it sort of annoying with the pesky shields in the way. Granted, on high level missions, enemies will shred through shields any way (and again proving the less than useful nature) and allow direct hits to health. The only other example I can think of off the top of my head is for Chroma Vex Armor. Then there are those would be affected negatively like Harrow, or not at all like Inaros and Nidus.

1 hour ago, Momaw said:

Shields are underpowered, so going the other way would make a lot more sense: Sacrifice some health to increase your shields.  We need gameplay mechanics to make shields more attractive, not even more mechanics to bolster warframe health which is already the way people choose to go.

I don't disagree with this. Perhaps something like a shield equivalent to Rage would make it more appealing? Or maybe have hits on health boost shield regen into overshield territory? The numbers for overshield is a little more forgiving, if you ask me.

1 hour ago, Azlen said:

Technically -shields is a bad effect. It is removing stats. Just because you want it to happen, doesn't make it not a bad effect.

Thank you. Another example of this is using the -RoF, +crit chance mods on high RoF weapons. Nothing but a bonus when you consider ammo economy without Carrier or Ammo Mutation.

And the +health was just an example. Could be anything that strips away the shield stat and I would probably use it to some degree or another. (Fully. As in no dragon key. Have used that strategy before.) They idea was to boost a different survivability stat to compensate for what little buffer shields provide.

40 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

because corrupted mods dont buff 1 thing only when the nerfed stat is adjusted/satisfied, they are all a straight up buff to 1 thing, nerf to another without care to any requirements.

Quoting this one because it is the most recent part of this argument. I used corrupted mods as the closest example since there are no pure stat "conversion" mods, which is how it would work, ideally. Because what people have said is true, it does not really work as a corrupted mod mechanically. 

[Lost_Cartographer]

I mean, I'm always down for more corrupted mods, but I'm thinking -shields=+health is a no brainer with how useless shields are in general.

Which tells us how shielding works needs to change.

Hell, I just humored the idea of shielding stopping/reducing elemental damage, and armor stopping/reducing physical damage.  Apparently, thanks to the adaptation mod, we've learned that our enemies actually hit us with elementals, despite firing a grakata.

[spirit_of_76]

sheilds have a use as they prevent chip damage.  but I would be for a mod that gives -50% base shields for +25% base health