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I know DE can't get too fancy with new stances until melee 3.0


Beas7ie
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You realize making combos like that useful and viable in Warframe would mean massively reducing the damage output of melee weapons, and an even larger nerf/increase in TTK to the damage output of ranged weapons and offensive Warframe powers, right? The same would go for greatly reducing the frequency and danger of enemy ranged attacks while also increasing the damage of enemy melee attacks tremendously.

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7 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

You realize making combos like that useful and viable in Warframe would mean massively reducing the damage output of melee weapons, and an even larger nerf/increase in TTK to the damage output of ranged weapons and offensive Warframe powers, right? The same would go for greatly reducing the frequency and danger of enemy ranged attacks while also increasing the damage of enemy melee attacks tremendously.

It seems you're making this much more complicated than it needs to be.  I was just talking about the weapon designs themselves, not that every weapon needs Arbitration level room clearing combos.  

Check out the video from about 15 to 20 seconds in where they show off Cerberus.   The nunchaku, bo staff, three section staff weapon.  It doesn't need to be quite as complex and have all the insane elemental abilities, but the weapon design itself is pretty cool.  It is completely doable to get weapons like that in game decently balanced without have to screw with the numbers of apparently everything else like you describe.

Also keep in mind that DE themselves say that the combat of the DMC series actually was an inspiration for their own melee combo system.

 

And just for extra, I personally would be totally cool with melee weapons being insanely overpowered, mainly because I'm Excal main who hits things with my sword.  I mean I play mostly melee and would use melee for everything.  I avoid missions with bosses and other enemies that are just "shoot the glowing weak spot" and are extremely difficult if not impossible to use melee on and consider things like Archwing, K drive, and even the upcoming Railjack to just be modes of transportation so I can get closer and hit them with my sword.  I'm totally that dude in the Warhammer 40K Baneblade tank waving his sword around yelling "BRING ME CLOSER!  I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD!"

But yeah, that's just me and again, that stuff I said before.  It wouldn't be impossible to make some unique weapons like a couple of those without having to completely revamp the system.

 

The design of Sparda for instance.  A similar heavy blade or even normal sword can have a design based off that only with infestation.  Boom infested sword or heavy blade.  It doesn't need all the transforming and other special abilities(though a few would be cool).  Just make an infested sword that looks similar to that.  

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Sorry, but no. (I've already seen the video.)

Trying to go too heavy on the DMC influence is what messed up the combos for Melee 2.0. DE themselves admitted this during one of the first livestreams where they discussed Melee 3.0.

I love DMC, but Warframe needs to be different in its implementation. That said, Warframe could learn a lot from the smoothness of animation transitions and the "sharp/snappy" feel of the individual swings. Many of the more exaggerated Warframe combos feel very choppy (e.g., Tranquil Cleave - Breathless Lunge), and many of the swings feel like you're waving a stick rather than swinging a weapon (e.g., Crimson Dervish - Crimson Orbit).

Overall, combos should be very simple and utilitarian but their animations and FX should be further polished to make them feel more "serious." At the moment attack speed actually affects animation speed; Crimson Dervish is a good example of the exaggerated slowness. DE should change it so that individual swings are unaffected (sharp and fast) while attack speed affects the time between attacks. This would ensure slower stances and weapons feel more deliberate and methodical rather than silly.

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[Emphasis Mine]

35 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

...

Warframe could learn a lot from the smoothness of animation transitions and the "sharp/snappy" feel of the individual swings. Many of the more exaggerated Warframe combos feel very choppy (e.g., Tranquil Cleave - Breathless Lunge), and many of the swings feel like you're waving a stick rather than swinging a weapon (e.g., Crimson Dervish - Crimson Orbit).

Overall, combos should be very simple and utilitarian but their animations and FX should be further polished to make them feel more "serious." At the moment attack speed actually affects animation speed; Crimson Dervish is a good example of the exaggerated slowness. DE should change it so that individual swings are unaffected (sharp and fast) while attack speed affects the time between attacks. This would ensure slower stances and weapons feel more deliberate and methodical rather than silly.

So, you mean fight like a ninja? Strongly agreed!

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2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Sorry, but no. (I've already seen the video.)

Trying to go too heavy on the DMC influence is what messed up the combos for Melee 2.0. DE themselves admitted this during one of the first livestreams where they discussed Melee 3.0.

I love DMC, but Warframe needs to be different in its implementation. That said, Warframe could learn a lot from the smoothness of animation transitions and the "sharp/snappy" feel of the individual swings. Many of the more exaggerated Warframe combos feel very choppy (e.g., Tranquil Cleave - Breathless Lunge), and many of the swings feel like you're waving a stick rather than swinging a weapon (e.g., Crimson Dervish - Crimson Orbit).

Overall, combos should be very simple and utilitarian but their animations and FX should be further polished to make them feel more "serious." At the moment attack speed actually affects animation speed; Crimson Dervish is a good example of the exaggerated slowness. DE should change it so that individual swings are unaffected (sharp and fast) while attack speed affects the time between attacks. This would ensure slower stances and weapons feel more deliberate and methodical rather than silly.

FFS are you people trying to troll.  

 

I am NOT talking about making crazy insane combos with all the status and particle effects.

 

I am trying to talk about the WEAPONS(or more accurately their appearances) themselves.  I'm not demanding a full revamp of the complete system like you and the guy before seem to think I'm going after.  A frekkin three section staff like weapon is NOT going to screw everything up.

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Just now, Beas7ie said:

FFS are you people trying to troll.  

 

I am NOT talking about making crazy insane combos with all the status and particle effects.

 

I am trying to talk about the WEAPONS(or more accurately their appearances) themselves.  I'm not demanding a full revamp of the complete system like you and the guy before seem to think I'm going after.  A frekkin three section staff like weapon is NOT going to screw everything up.

... Then you really ought to add something more substantial to your thread, and if possible revise your title.

You talk about the "fanciness" of stances and then show a video demonstrating various combos; what do you think other people are going to think?

If you're only talking about the weapon designs themselves, you should make that more clear. I didn't deliberately try to misunderstand you; there's just not much to go on.

Your second attempt to clarify wasn't super clear either; it looked like you attempted to justify DMC-style combos when you said this:

15 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

Also keep in mind that DE themselves say that the combat of the DMC series actually was an inspiration for their own melee combo system

I'm not trying to troll you, I promise. But I can only work with what you actually write.

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4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

... Then you really ought to add something more substantial to your thread, and if possible revise your title.

You talk about the "fanciness" of stances and then show a video demonstrating various combos; what do you think other people are going to think?

If you're only talking about the weapon designs themselves, you should make that more clear. I didn't deliberately try to misunderstand you; there's just not much to go on.

Your second attempt to clarify wasn't super clear either; it looked like you attempted to justify DMC-style combos when you said this:

I'm not trying to troll you, I promise. But I can only work with what you actually write.

I thought that was pretty clear in my second post where the first person just made a spiel about how EVERYTHING would have to be changed, or something like that.

 

Whatever 

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15 minutes ago, Beas7ie said:

I thought that was pretty clear in my second post where the first person just made a spiel about how EVERYTHING would have to be changed, or something like that.

 

Whatever 

I literally pointed out the part of the second post that made it unclear. What more do you want from me?

Also anyone who comes into the thread is more likely to read only the first post, and it's not guaranteed that they'll read the following posts. Just FYI.

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15 minutes ago, Beas7ie said:

I thought that was pretty clear in my second post where the first person just made a spiel about how EVERYTHING would have to be changed, or something like that.

 

Whatever 

Don't worry, as you keep practicing your English, you'll get better and better and, eventually, you'll be able to speak to people in a clear and concise manner so they'll be able to understand what you're trying to say.

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1 hour ago, Mach25 said:

Don't worry, as you keep practicing your English, you'll get better and better and, eventually, you'll be able to speak to people in a clear and concise manner so they'll be able to understand what you're trying to say.

 

Wish I could say the same about you developing the skills and intelligence to actually understand what others are trying to say without them having to always be 100% clear and precise all the time.  I guess being able to interpret even the gist of what some people are trying to say is too much for people like you.

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1 minute ago, Beas7ie said:

 

Wish I could say the same about you developing the skills and intelligence to actually understand what others are trying to say without them having to always be 100% clear and precise all the time.  I guess being able to interpret even the gist of what some people are trying to say is too much for people like you.

So all this because you can't even be bothered to edit your first post to say you're talking about the design of the weapons themselves and not the stances that the topic title and lone sentence allude to?

Well, since you've so graciously cleared this all up, I guess the only thing left to say on the matter is this: Download Blender and get to work.

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I literally pointed out the part of the second post that made it unclear. What more do you want from me?

Also anyone who comes into the thread is more likely to read only the first post, and it's not guaranteed that they'll read the following posts. Just FYI.

You made a mention of the DMC stuff but definitely didn't "literally point out" the part of the post that made things unclear and then went off on about how we shouldn't have too much DMC influence and other stuff at the end that I actually agree with. 

I just made a mention that DMC was ONE OF the influencers way back when DE first developed melee 2.0 and which as far as I'm concerned was a hot mess from the get go with the funky implemention of how to actually do the combos.  Using the block key is fine, but then you get stuff with pauses, and even directional movements and it's like "Forget this crap, I'm just spamming E" 

 

But just watch 0:15 to about 0:35 of the video.  Do you really think that having combinations like those shown will be too much for Warframe?

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1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

So all this because you can't even be bothered to edit your first post to say you're talking about the design of the weapons themselves and not the stances that the topic title and lone sentence allude to?

Well, since you've so graciously cleared this all up, I guess the only thing left to say on the matter is this: Download Blender and get to work.

 

I actually was planning on doing just that, but at this point I'm just about ready to give up on this whole thing with people like you being insulting and hostile right out of the gate.  Now I remember why I took a long hiatus from this game and forums.  

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21 minutes ago, Beas7ie said:

Now I remember why I took a long hiatus from this game and forums.  

Maybe you should take a longer break so you can reevaluate how you see the world. 

You appear to be having a hard time separating sincere and respectful discussion from mere trolling...and you're seeing insults where, for the most part, there's only legitimate criticism, observations, questioning, and suggestions aimed at trying to help you.

47 minutes ago, Beas7ie said:

Wish I could say the same about you developing the skills and intelligence to actually understand what others are trying to say without them having to always be 100% clear and precise all the time.  I guess being able to interpret even the gist of what some people are trying to say is too much for people like you.

...and now you're the one being insulting and presumptuous.

*sigh*

2 hours ago, Mach25 said:

Don't worry, as you keep practicing your English, you'll get better and better and, eventually, you'll be able to speak to people in a clear and concise manner so they'll be able to understand what you're trying to say.

Clear, concise, and well-defined meaning is SO important in a written discussion. In communications channels like this, it's hard to get a sense of context (setting, emotional state and cultural rules of the speaker, etc.) and thus it's easy to have one's written content misunderstood if you don't elaborate enough and choose the right words.

Knowing who you are, I know you're not being condescending at all. In fact, I know you're being sincerely helpful and supportive. Unfortunately, your statement could be misconstrued as being patronizing by less open-minded individuals who aren't as skilled in the art of critical thinking 😕

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Also anyone who comes into the thread is more likely to read only the first post, and it's not guaranteed that they'll read the following posts. Just FYI.

Sadly, this is all too true...and people really need to make more of an effort to read beyond the first page, let alone the first post.

2 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

FFS are you people trying to troll.  

:facepalm:

They're doing nothing of the sort...

There's an old saying that springs to mind here. "Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're out to get you."

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39 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 

Clear, concise, and well-defined meaning is SO important in a written discussion. In communications channels like this, it's hard to get a sense of context (setting, emotional state and cultural rules of the speaker, etc.) and thus it's easy to have one's written content misunderstood if you don't elaborate enough and choose the right words.

Knowing who you are, I know you're not being condescending at all. In fact, I know you're being sincerely helpful and supportive. Unfortunately, your statement could be misconstrued as being patronizing by less open-minded individuals who aren't as skilled in the art of critical thinking 😕

 

 

Really?!  I got ripped on for not being clear and concise enough, but he does it and you encourage him and tell him that if people don't realize he's not trying to be insulting than they're less open-minded and aren't as skilled in the art of critical thinking!?    THE SAME CAN GO FOR MY EARLIER POSTS IN WHICH PEOPLE CLAIMED I HAVEN'T CLEARLY STATED MY POINTS!  

42 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Maybe you should take a longer break so you can reevaluate how you see the world. 

You appear to be having a hard time separating sincere and respectful discussion from mere trolling...and you're seeing insults where, for the most part, there's only legitimate criticism, observations, questioning, and suggestions aimed at trying to help you.

...and now you're the one being insulting and presumptuous.

 

I'm not just going to let people insult me and not do anything about it.  I fully admit to dishing it out here as well and if mods need to take action about posts in this thread, I understand if I get warned or infracted as well.  In fact they can probably just close this whole damn thread as it's just gone way off topic by this point.  

And take a break and completely reevaluate how I see the world?  Really?  I have SEEN the world, and I know full well just how good and honest and just how S#&$ty and assholish people can be.  Whether or not I play a silly space ninja game isn't going to change my experiences.

48 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

 

They're doing nothing of the sort...

There's an old saying that springs to mind here. "Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're out to get you."

With your insults against me and supporting Mach25, it seems you're the one being the troll now.

 

If a mod is around please just close or delete this thread.  It's gone way off topic and if I make one again I'll try and make sure people can understand because apparently if they can't understand my message, I didn't state it right, but if I misconstrue something someone else says then I'm just close minded and not skilled at critical thinking.  

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55 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Clear, concise, and well-defined meaning is SO important in a written discussion. In communications channels like this, it's hard to get a sense of context (setting, emotional state and cultural rules of the speaker, etc.) and thus it's easy to have one's written content misunderstood if you don't elaborate enough and choose the right words.

Knowing who you are, I know you're not being condescending at all. In fact, I know you're being sincerely helpful and supportive. Unfortunately, your statement could be misconstrued as being patronizing by less open-minded individuals who aren't as skilled in the art of critical thinking 😕

Ah, true - the shortcomings of mere text. I'll clarify.

@Beas7ie

Earlier, I was just being a bit silly. I know you speak the language just fine, I'd like to encourage you to simply elaborate more on what you meant - your post was a bit limited and your intended message unclear. I enjoy good, meaningful discussion and I'd like to hear what you have to say in your own words.

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3 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Ah, true - the shortcomings of mere text. I'll clarify.

@Beas7ie

Earlier, I was just being a bit silly. I know you speak the language just fine, I'd like to encourage you to simply elaborate more on what you meant - your post was a bit limited and your intended message unclear. I enjoy good, meaningful discussion and I'd like to hear what you have to say in your own words.

I see, well thank you for clearing that up, and yes text is quite limiting and it can be challenging to tell if someone is trying to be silly or sarcastic.  Something everyone should keep in mind.

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2 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

You made a mention of the DMC stuff but definitely didn't "literally point out" the part of the post that made things unclear

Yes, I did. Your first post isn't clear at all, and I pointed out the part of your SECOND post that made me think you were still talking about adding combos. Here, I'll quote it for you AGAIN:

20 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

Also keep in mind that DE themselves say that the combat of the DMC series actually was an inspiration for their own melee combo system.

Based on your title talking about stances, linking a DMC vid, and talking about specific weapons you think have combos... PLUS the above quote talking about how the stances were inspired by DMC, it kinda sorta maybe possibly SEEMED like you wanted DMC-style combos.

Quote

and then went off on about how we shouldn't have too much DMC influence and other stuff at the end that I actually agree with. 

Based on what happened with 2.0, it would be a bad idea to try copying DMC again. It just doesn't fit Warframe.

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I just made a mention that DMC was ONE OF the influencers way back when DE first developed melee 2.0 and which as far as I'm concerned was a hot mess from the get go with the funky implemention of how to actually do the combos.  Using the block key is fine, but then you get stuff with pauses, and even directional movements and it's like "Forget this crap, I'm just spamming E" 

This is true, but the actual issues with the stances themselves also apply. The combos are clearly designed to multihit 1 enemy when in WF most enemies die in 1 hit. DMC is about beating up on a small number of enemies, which DON'T die in 1 hit.

Try playing DMC4 or DMC4:SE on Heaven or Hell difficulty and see how well that works out. Spoiler alert: it really sucks and the combos don't work well.

Quote

But just watch 0:15 to about 0:35 of the video.  Do you really think that having combinations like those shown will be too much for Warframe?

Oh, so you DO want them to use those combinations? I've SEEN the video already. I'm following DMC5 really closely and with lots of anticipation.

And YES. Those combos would be HORRIBLE  for Warframe. Notice how many enemies are there. Notice how many times Dante hits it. When do you expect that to happen in Warframe? Whatever you're hitting is going to be dead long before you finish that combo, making the combo itself a waste of time.

Warframe should stick to simple utilitarian combos tuned to how quickly enemies actually go down.

Look, I'm not asking for specificity just to annoy you. Really. But I can't read your mind, so I have to make my best guess based on what you write... And when you write 1 vague sentence with a link to a vid...

Besides, you actually did want the combos, so I even guessed right the first time!

Edited by DiabolusUrsus
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