Why did DE remove the raids?

[Shadow-Spawn]

In the SWTOR MMO – you had to know how to play your class in the 8 or 16 player raids.
The 3 classes: 
DPS; deals the most damage to the boss – Healers; heal the team members – Tanks; takes the biggest hits and keeps the boss focus on them during the fights. 

You also had to know how to maximize your output – meaning that you had to know what buttons to push in the correct order to maximize your healing or damage output etc.

Furthermore, you had to gear up your individual characters, so that their gear level was putting out a high enough level of damage/healing etc. 

If your team cannot kill a boss, before a certain time – it will enrage and kill/wipe the team. 

There are 3 levels of difficulty – Story mode – Hard mode – Nightmare mode.
Each mode requires the players to know the tactics for each boss fight – the tactics change somewhat depending on what difficult mode your are doing. The same does the enrage timers of the boss fights – the health of the boss and how much damage the boss deals to the team. 
The fights also spawn different mobs of enemies that have to be killed in a certain way – their spawn rate and how you kill them also change depending on the difficulty mode. 

A raid would only payout, if you completed it – meaning that you had to kill every boss in that raid – usually 4-5 bosses. Your team could wipe on bosses endlessly, before finally completing the raid or quit to try again another day – but then there would be no payout. 

The raids are part of a larger epic story arch – meaning that they are not just a bunch of bosses thrown at you. The raids are worth doing – and very satisfying to complete. 👍👍

[LupisV0lk]

Trails as they were called were:

A buggy mess that become even more borked as DE patch things outside of it.

Had a small self selecting, rather toxic and elitist community. For why we'll never know, the theory i take stock in is they wanted to keep the arcane supply limited to protect their monopoly.

Due to said small community it was unfeasible for DE to continue supporting it.

[Shadow-Spawn]

3 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Trails as they were called were:

A buggy mess that become even more borked as DE patch things outside of it.

Had a small self selecting, rather toxic and elitist community. For why we'll never know, the theory i take stock in is they wanted to keep the arcane supply limited to protect their monopoly.

Due to said small community it was unfeasible for DE to continue supporting it.

One way to fix this would be to have 3 levels of difficulty like in SWTOR.

I guess that you could call some of the nightmare raids community elitist, but you have to know that there are not that many nightmare raid teams/guilds with free slots anymore, due to the fact of the many wrong decisions made by the SWTOR team in recent times.

There are however a much bigger chance to finding veteran/hard mode raids guilds or you can simply PuG a story mode raid group - those are constantly being formed and completed a lot more easily.👍

[RX-3DR]

27 minutes ago, Shadow-Spawn said:

One way to fix this would be to have 3 levels of difficulty like in SWTOR.

I guess that you could call some of the nightmare raids community elitist, but you have to know that there are not that many nightmare raid teams/guilds with free slots anymore, due to the fact of the many wrong decisions made by the SWTOR team in recent times.

There are however a much bigger chance to finding veteran/hard mode raids guilds or you can simply PuG a story mode raid group - those are constantly being formed and completed a lot more easily.👍

They had regular difficulty and Nightmare mode back then. It didn't really make a difference. 

My personal reason as to why I couldn't be bothered to deal with Trials were simply because they were too much hassle to get going as a person who prefers to play at my own pace. It was a lot of effort to basically partake in a mission that was just not very enticing. 

I'd place my bets that a good portion of people are on the same position, else Eidolons wouldn't be as popular. With the Eidolons, if you see you have a good 30 minutes of free time, you can drop into a public game with a reliable setup and at least secure yourself 3 Arcanes. No need to line up for a 8 person team on some Discord channel, doesn't matter if half of your structured team is away.

Simply put it, accessibility is more likely to be a bigger factor than difficulty tiers.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Flandyrll

[Shadow-Spawn]

26 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

They had regular difficulty and Nightmare mode back then. It didn't really make a difference. 

My personal reason as to why I couldn't be bothered to deal with Trials were simply because they were too much hassle to get going as a person who prefers to play at my own pace. It was a lot of effort to basically partake in a mission that was just not very enticing. 

I'd place my bets that a good portion of people are on the same position, else Eidolons wouldn't be as popular. With the Eidolons, if you see you have a good 30 minutes of free time, you can drop into a public game with a reliable setup and at least secure yourself 3 Arcanes. No need to line up for a 8 person team on some Discord channel, doesn't matter if half of your structured team is away.

Simply put it, accessibility is more likely to be a bigger factor than difficulty tiers.

I see. Well the raids have to be something very special to make the players really want to take part in them. Like tie them in with some epic story quests.

And the rewards have to be really worth it - like some very unique gear and some new awesome looking decorations, mounts or maybe a new type of landing craft or railjack components etc.

And make it easy to team up with a raid group - if not that many players are teaming up at the moment - add cross server/platform teams. 👍

SWTOR also had a bunch of world bosses, but those were very similar and easy to take down and with little to no reward.

[Radagosh]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb UrielColtan:

"We all". No, raids were not a defacto thing that all vets even did, let alone liked, and those "raids" or pressure plate simulators, were not really worth fighting for. An all new revamped kind of raid altogether instead(Which may be in the railjack plans.), sure. The original raids otherwise weren't exactly what people unfamiliar with Warframe picture, nor what vets by the large wanted, when you mention the discarded raids.

I don't know why you even purport that vets now have nothing to do because of the removal of raids when vets were complaining about "no endgame" even when the raids were around. And they will continue to do so, because as time goes on, people find exploits and make things more of a cake walk, especially those who basically live in the game. They also take advantage of the fact that DE adds more stuff to the game, so the demand for endgame will never end.

the "we all" referred to us raiders not veterans, I should have made this more obvious. Sorry for the confusion. Now, I checked your raidtracker where it said that you tried 4 raids in total and failed every single one of them. As such I understand you calling them pressure plate simulator as that stage showed if you're team was able to play together or just didn't have teamwork or experience.

However, this limited experience might be a reason why you shouldn't be talking about raids. It's like me complaining about conclave, which i've never touched since the movement rework. Now, I personally don't like conclave but I wouldn't ever want DE to shut it down and destroy another part of what some of their playerbase enjoy.

Next point:
We (arguably) never really had endgame, we keep asking for endgame, they remove the game modes closest to endgame. You complain about us complaining about that, I too can't wait for corpus poe-reskin, that will lead to another content drought after 1 month. I want something that keeps me entertained and so do many of my clanmates and friends that have been playing this game for years. You have over 3000 hours, you should know about the login, do sorties, logout mentality of most veterans, if they even do sorties.

Raids and Alliance conflicts were just that, things people could enjoy over and over again (once you got over the initial entry barrier - which was pretty easy with raidschoolbus).

Now about that arguably, I am one that believes we once had endgame. Endless void keys that made you want to get everything out of that one key. Something we don't have anymore. Now, the new arbitrations gave me the same feel of joy endless void gave me. At least until I had every mod and no reason to run it again, which was 3 days.

I know raids won't come back, I know it's smart to please the casual playerbase as they are spending the most plat. I just hope DE realises that giving more incentives for arbitrations (Kuva, Rivens, amber stars) a better scaling system in endless missions (ABCC... as in arbis) is the way forward. Ohh and Railjack hopefully won't be S#&$, I have hopes for that one.

 

[Radagosh]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LupisV0lk:

Trails as they were called were:

A buggy mess that become even more borked as DE patch things outside of it.

Had a small self selecting, rather toxic and elitist community. For why we'll never know, the theory i take stock in is they wanted to keep the arcane supply limited to protect their monopoly.

Due to said small community it was unfeasible for DE to continue supporting it.

Aight time for one of these toxic raiders to say something.

You have 1 raid in total I have 975. I sure hope you have examples for bugs. Because Lor and NMLor were bugfree only JV was a mess. So the excuse of removing JV because of upkeep didn't seem too far fetched, the Lors on the other hand, those were absolutely fine.

Next up the community.Yeah man, I especially hated this one toxic discord channel that taught all these mr 3 excaliburs how to run raids. Sure love how people are way more accepting of my mr 6 twink with tonkor, nova and no focus in eidolon fights nowadays. Toxicity will always be a thing with gamemodes that promote fast and minmaxed gameplay. However, I dare to argue raids weren't as toxic as their replacement called Eidolons.

 

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Radagosh said:

Because Lor and NMLor were bugfree

Well, aside from the floor deciding to go AWOL. Little things like that.

[UrielColtan]

7 hours ago, Radagosh said:

the "we all" referred to us raiders not veterans, I should have made this more obvious. Sorry for the confusion. Now, I checked your raidtracker where it said that you tried 4 raids in total and failed every single one of them. As such I understand you calling them pressure plate simulator as that stage showed if you're team was able to play together or just didn't have teamwork or experience.

However, this limited experience might be a reason why you shouldn't be talking about raids. It's like me complaining about conclave, which i've never touched since the movement rework. Now, I personally don't like conclave but I wouldn't ever want DE to shut it down and destroy another part of what some of their playerbase enjoy.

Next point:
We (arguably) never really had endgame, we keep asking for endgame, they remove the game modes closest to endgame. You complain about us complaining about that, I too can't wait for corpus poe-reskin, that will lead to another content drought after 1 month. I want something that keeps me entertained and so do many of my clanmates and friends that have been playing this game for years. You have over 3000 hours, you should know about the login, do sorties, logout mentality of most veterans, if they even do sorties.

Raids and Alliance conflicts were just that, things people could enjoy over and over again (once you got over the initial entry barrier - which was pretty easy with raidschoolbus).

Now about that arguably, I am one that believes we once had endgame. Endless void keys that made you want to get everything out of that one key. Something we don't have anymore. Now, the new arbitrations gave me the same feel of joy endless void gave me. At least until I had every mod and no reason to run it again, which was 3 days.

I know raids won't come back, I know it's smart to please the casual playerbase as they are spending the most plat. I just hope DE realises that giving more incentives for arbitrations (Kuva, Rivens, amber stars) a better scaling system in endless missions (ABCC... as in arbis) is the way forward. Ohh and Railjack hopefully won't be S#&$, I have hopes for that one.

 

You mentioned veterans, it was pretty clear what you meant, now you are just reverting back on that.

Checking my raids does nothing for you, and it would only help my point. This isn't about the raids being too "hard" or not for me, veterans complained about no endgame and didn't use raids as a supplement, regardless of whether you think I played enough of them.

 I didn't fail btw, the teams disbanded every time, because the gameplay was not what they wanted in a raid and or some kept demanding people bring "name self ascribed meta frame here". I knew how to do and complete every stage of both LoR and Jordas, vanilla or nightmare, even gave tutorials for people who did want to try that stuff after it came to PS4 or Xbox. I knew about the raid bus too, but by that point I didn't care about doing raids for my account.

Pressure plate nonsense is not a good form of anything, from game design to guaging teammate dependency,  and one does not need to constantly play Superman 64 to see if it is quality or not.

The Raids were never considered endgame, or anything close to it, that's why there was more begging for endgame back when they were around. There was nothing particularly difficult about them to be considered endgame, they were at best, time wasters. 

Same for those Dark Sector conclaves and the solar rail clan ownerships, in fact, they were more so considered cancerous, particularly the latter aspect. The demand for endgame is both a byproduct of living in the game and DE inevitably adding new things, then those people living in the game or dependant on Warframe as daily content on their youtube, taking advantage of that sensation. Its nigh Munchausen, and thus there will be no end to demand for endgame, no matter the mode and its difficulty.

I am glad that those raids were discarded because instead of wasting time on maintenance of that thing, they can work on other stuff. I too am glad that not much is demanded of conclave, so there is less request for bug fixes there and and conclave has a seperate team anyway, so, more time can be allocated to better things.

Relics too are by far superior to the void keys.  Instead of swimming in a big waiting pool of drop rotations you can pick your drop chances, for each rotation, and you are not confined to one tileset either.

Removing something does not equate to removing endgame. That would be as silly as saying the removal of archwing missions or current conclave would be the removal of endgame. Because people found the raids just as if not more uninteresting.

Were you also broken up over Excal losing his super jump ability too?

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by UrielColtan

[Talinthis]

On 2018-10-29 at 8:57 AM, Dhrekr said:

Hahahaha. Goodness me "the community is dying you guess".

Fun fact: the number of players currently playing Warframe is (roughly) higher than it EVER was while raids were a thing.

Yes. You watch many vids made by people who are wrong.

Some whiny moaners have been complaining that DE is killing the game ever since 2013. Fortunately the game hasn't noticed.

If they keep saying it someday they will be correct

[Corvid]

48 minutes ago, Talinthis said:

If they keep saying it someday they will be correct

Would you say the same of flat-earthers?

[Radagosh]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Corvid:

Well, aside from the floor deciding to go AWOL. Little things like that.

which happened like once or twice over 8 updates, and was fixed in the next hotfix.

[Radagosh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

You mentioned veterans, it was pretty clear what you meant, now you are just reverting back on that.

yeah tell me what i was thinking, because you know it better, Please stop arguing over a point which, i defended, Im not a native speaker as such it's harder for me to express things clearly. If you want we can continue this in German, privately, on discord, which would definitely be easier for me. Furthermore, i mentioned veterans mostly in part two about future content not in the raiding part. I further explained that vets are people with too much endo and focus to me, stuff that did not even exist back in raiding days. But sure keep going with your narrative.

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

Checking my raids does nothing for you, and it would only help my point. This isn't about the raids being too "hard" or not for me, veterans complained about no endgame and didn't use raids as a supplement, regardless of whether you think I played enough of them.

 I didn't fail btw, the teams disbanded every time, because the gameplay was not what they wanted in a raid and or some kept demanding people bring "name self ascribed meta frame here". I knew how to do and complete every stage of both LoR and Jordas, vanilla or nightmare, even gave tutorials for people who did want to try that stuff after it came to PS4 or Xbox. I knew about the raid bus too, but by that point I didn't care about doing raids for my account.

yes, it tells me and other people if you knew your mechanics or just fled after one try to never return and didn't even give the raids and its community a chance.

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

Pressure plate nonsense is not a good form of anything, from game design to guaging teammate dependency,  and one does not need to constantly play Superman 64 to see if it is quality or not.

The Raids were never considered endgame, or anything close to it, that's why there was more begging for endgame back when they were around. There was nothing particularly difficult about them to be considered endgame, they were at best, time wasters. 

Same for those Dark Sector conclaves and the solar rail clan ownerships, in fact, they were more so considered cancerous, particularly the latter aspect. The demand for endgame is both a byproduct of living in the game and DE inevitably adding new things, then those people living in the game or dependant on Warframe as daily content on their youtube, taking advantage of that sensation. Its nigh Munchausen, and thus there will be no end to demand for endgame, no matter the mode and its difficulty.

your opinion vs. mine, literally adds nothing to the discussion. Also, i stated raids were close to endgame, not endgame. Again you interfere points you'd like to attack, please stop doing this.

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

I am glad that those raids were discarded because instead of wasting time on maintenance of that thing, they can work on other stuff. I too am glad that not much is demanded of conclave, so there is less request for bug fixes there and and conclave has a seperate team anyway, so, more time can be allocated to better things.

like that weird photobooth thing or minigames? Again, going by your logic because I don't use them noone is and it's not worth the effort.

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

Relics too are by far superior to the void keys.  Instead of swimming in a big waiting pool of drop rotations you can pick your drop chances, for each rotation, and you are not confined to one tileset either.

I did not say that I liked the dropchances, I said I liked getting multiple drops from just one key. I absolutely adore farming the new PA in 1 day after it launched, something that was not possible before. But hey, you don't need to argue my actual points as long as you can point out stuff you would like to argue.

vor einer Stunde schrieb UrielColtan:

Removing something does not equate to removing endgame. That would be as silly as saying the removal of archwing missions or current conclave would be the removal of endgame. Because people found the raids just as if not more uninteresting.

People also found it fun and ran it every day. See this, this is anecdotal evidence nothing useful.

Now last thing i want to mention, you don't seem to read my responses but just argue points I did not even make. This makes me believe you don't even want to have a sound discussion but only repeat the same points you've picked up over the years. This should have been made clear in this response and I doubt either of us is getting anything out of this and I really don't want to derail this thread. So I m now gonna stop responding to you, if you wanna continue this hit me up on discord or something and well make out <333 #nohomotho

[Shadow-Spawn]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Would you say the same of flat-earthers?

It's flat.

[UrielColtan]

3 hours ago, Radagosh said:

*Nonsense*

You literally said vets were being inconvenienced because of the removal raids, when vets barely cared about or played them. Some market chat gougers were the loudest ones crying.

You can't play the "you don't know what I am thinking" canard.  I also said raids were not even close to endgame, and pointed out how the vets didn't really care about them. Nice try though.

And yeah, now the devs have time to focus on photo booths and minigames that don't really get or require much maintenance, because thats what i am talking about, not new and improved raids and the likes of rail jack, like i clearly mentioned. Talk about inferring opinions.

Now this,

"yes, it tells me and other people if you knew yourmechanics....."

 arrogance displayed, is part of why I am glad those raids were removed. This is as tacky as trying to brag about Dark Sector conclave or something. Calling them pressure plate simulatora was also a lowkey shorthand reference to how Steve described them too, btw.

You are too busy trying to build up an easy straw man to knock over instead of focusing on the fact that raids were not really revered and people were screaming about endgame even when they were active.

Anecdotes such as "well some people liked them", is irrelevant to this reality.

As for keys, I don't see why you care about them when you can do a tier without having or crafting(Derelict, for Prime parts anyway.) a key now, mentioning an amount of keys is irrelevant at this point.

Don't pretend to care about derailing either, you simply want to encourage that i let you have last words, less you proceed with the following tactic of saying I am trying to "derail". The tactic isn't clever. What is actually happening is the topic of discussion.

You are free to "flee the topic of discussion never to return again nor giving discussion with the community a chance", in places they congregate. Show off your true arrogance instead of wishing to hide it in a discord.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by UrielColtan
Grammar

[LegacyDM]

On October 29, 2018 at 5:06 AM, iman00700 said:

I wasted 400k cred(i was mr4 and  poor)to craft those keys and before doing them they were removed

I want my money back

Your fine. Few rounds in the index and 20 minutes later you'll make that back and then some. 400k is pennies.

[Dhrekr]

12 hours ago, Talinthis said:

If they keep saying it someday they will be correct

The day will close one day and these people will still be wrong.

The game is not going to die because of the removal of the trials. The game has already survived the removal of the trials and gotten stronger.

[Talinthis]

11 hours ago, Corvid said:

Would you say the same of flat-earthers?

Well i mean that's totally different, I doubt this game will be around in like 30 years so. Just like the mayans will be eventually correct about their end of the world scenario.

[Cubewano]

It required too many resources(upkeep/bug repairs) for the level of value it put out. DE may return raids at a later date in some alternate form, they just deemed their current state not worth further investment, it neither had a good enough appeal nor worked in an efficient enough manner for the continued effort it required to remain functional within the game. 

[iman00700]

11 hours ago, LegacyDM said:

Your fine. Few rounds in the index and 20 minutes later you'll make that back and then some. 400k is pennies.

I didnt have access and strong frame for index

Only thing i could do was ceres

[chinhnguyen]

cause is fun

[Lakais]

Well... isn't the whole Railjack thing basically a distilled format of a Raid? A highly organized operation in difficult content for a great prize. Now, I don't know about the prize but what i saw in the gameplay snippets of it, it got the "difficult content" and "highly organized" down pat. 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

On 2018-10-29 at 7:27 PM, seprent said:

i can probably answer this with a yes for the sake of consistency since LOR JV and such were as you said 24 hour locked you did it once wait till tomorrow to do it again in the raiding community give or a take a few prevent did a raid during that scan of missions types done it would return a very low percent due to the 24 hour lock out the 8 man squads so you had more people doing it reducing the need to farm the mission by alittle and the 24 hour lock out preventing heavy farming to begin with so the statistic in my mind is pretty solid since once the majority did it one you have a clear window of how many players did that mission now for the sake of the chart in particular if raids where only able to be done once the other missions type would only count once because if not the whole chart would be very out of wack as well but due more people playing them would still result in a higher percent of play time over all those missions are more readily available has level ranges allowing both new and old to play them while raids were restricting i wanna say mid game and above since thats when i played them sorties themselves would fall under same as raids a series of missions that are playable every 24 hours and probably has its own slot on the chart while fissures can have there own slot or be included into the the already made mission type chunks but labeled with a perpetrate percentage when factoring the whole thing EX: Mobile defense was played 34% with 15% being fissure missions

TLDR: yes because if they weren't counted to the same conditions the chart would be pointless and out of wack with the result but raids came up to the small % due to the readily availability of of other mission types mostly due to level ranges  while raids were level range locked to i wanna say 80-100? i dont really remember sotries would have their own statistic like raids while fissure could have either their own spot or added to mission type chunks as a separate percentage to the chunk as a whole

But you’re not 100% sure that Nodes like Defense are counted: 1x Defense per Player per 24 hrs into Stats wheel

On 2018-10-29 at 7:30 PM, Eirshy said:

@(PS4)Onder6099

I can give you anecdotal evidence that Raids weren't really played much.
Recruiting chat worked for organizing basically anything but raids. For raids you either had to use a special discord (ie WRSB) or have friends on-release that yelled "GET IN LOSER, WE'RE LAUGHING AT DE" at you on Steam when LoR first came out.

I get wanting to doubt stats, but they were stats that made 100% sense if you were actually around for Raids and ever actually ran them.

Lack of Communication, bad set up, problems with Authority and Discipline, these are not problems of Raids as game Node, but players behaviors. Unfortunately they are still here but they are barely visible because none of the rest  Nodes need so much coordination like Raids needed.

[Arniox]

On 2018-10-30 at 3:20 AM, feelmepain said:

So,today i watched the videos about raids and....yeah pretty sad i started to play WF when plains was there (never knew raid was in WF) 

IT was "REPLACED" by the eidolon hunting for new player like me  and probally other new players never knew raid was in WF 

it has been 8 months since the 'TEMPORALLY" remove of the raid and the community is dying i guess 

i understand how DE wants more players to play WF but to hurt players like that while trying to improve WF is not FUN brb.

i hope after the fourtuna update we get to feel raids

PS: sorry for any typo, and i watch many vid saying DE is killing WF?

 

 

Raids where very repepative and boring. 

The challenge became doing them faster and faster which then became boring as well. 

After a while, I stopped playing them. Too boring and the rewards weren't really that worth it since the rng was so slow (only able to get max of 3 arcane per 24 hours) 

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Lack of Communication, bad set up, problems with Authority and Discipline, these are not problems of Raids as game Node, but players behaviors. Unfortunately they are still here but they are barely visible because none of the rest  Nodes need so much coordination like Raids needed.

Oh, there were problems with the raids beyond players for sure, you could have a whole team of chums who got along, but if they found the content boring or a waste of time, then that was just that and they will rarely bother touching it again.

Many simply had higher and or different expectations in regard to raids, a bit from experience with other games with raiding, as opposed to the hokie pokie and guess what the dev was thinking here, in the Warframe raids. There of course were also problems with players, but not the ones you may be thinking of, one in particular may even require a mirror.

"Authority", "Discipline", lol, those toilet tissue paper raids weren't even deserving of this deluded perception of stature.  Dealt with enough authority and discipline in the military, only communicated cooperation was required here, the raids were otherwise just not good.  This perceived superiority and power tripping radiation is part of why those who even knew about raids, avoided them like the plague. All these little Napoleons, LARPing as R Lee Ermey, swarming around this slipshod turd.

Made me shed a tear when they were removed though, due to laughter.

Edited November 1, 2018 by UrielColtan
Grammar