Why did DE remove the raids?

[fatpig84]

Issues is no one can be coordinated enough and start screaming how difficult it is.
When done in  Clans with proper experience, it is a smooth breeze.
Add in the bugs which only experienced raiders knew how to *cough* exploit or get around, it is not very entry friendly.
Thus the sky rocketing Arcane prices then.

Warframe was already very hard to get into because there is a lot of things for a new player to do.
And more endgame content locked behind an even unfriendlier wall, well you get the drift.

So by then DE considered it a lost cause and culled raids altogether.
They had hope that coordination puzzle based raids will reduce the "DPS gate" or "Item check" raids of other games.
But it turn out even worse than before, since F2P players somehow have even poorer coordination than most players, since WF attract third person shooter players, not your standard MMORPG kind of dudes.

Hence they turned to Eidolons instead, which is a DPS gate design (seriously using mote amp to break shield is a frustration, a clear item check).

Edited November 1, 2018 by fatpig84

[BETAOPTICS]

On 2018-10-29 at 4:20 PM, feelmepain said:

So,today i watched the videos about raids and....yeah pretty sad i started to play WF when plains was there (never knew raid was in WF) 

IT was "REPLACED" by the eidolon hunting for new player like me  and probally other new players never knew raid was in WF 

it has been 8 months since the 'TEMPORALLY" remove of the raid and the community is dying i guess 

i understand how DE wants more players to play WF but to hurt players like that while trying to improve WF is not FUN brb.

i hope after the fourtuna update we get to feel raids

PS: sorry for any typo, and i watch many vid saying DE is killing WF?

 

 

Well it is clear you don't know the reason, which is not wrong, you are a new-ish player for all intents and purposes contextually after all. Raids were removed because only a handful of players were playing them. Accessibility, difficulty and other factors made participation in raids difficult and the only few who regularly played then could dominate the platinum markets by selling arcanes at high prices. Because it did not attract enough players, it wasn't economically nor logistically beneficial to keep them around until further rework.

You think 8 months is a lot but it actually is not. Some features have been absent for years (dark sectors) and they may or may not come back one day. Warframe is build on intuition a lot of times, what the developers think might work for the game. If one day they have a new vision for a model of raids that would be interesting, accessible and functional -- then we might one day get them back.

Community is " not dying " because of the absence of raids and high demand for them, the community " is dying " because of the development cycle of Warframe and what drives in player interest. Warframe is a game that used to live on frequent content basis, nothing large like Plains of Eidolon or Fortuna, but small updates every now and again, month or few from the last. While many appreciate the quality and elements that open world settings bring to the game, the absence of content in the meantime makes the player experience slow down. The problem with this is that not every player is dedicated enough to at least come back every day to get the daily log-in rewards. If their interest to the game is lost due to absence of content, they might not even come back when big updates come, or they will not be as interested in the game anymore when they come back. What players of the community are discussing is whether or not these yearly development cycles are sustainable. As [DE]Steve said, they wanted to release Fortuna back in July which was 4 months ago originally, and the aftermath of delays show in their radar as well.

[UrielColtan]

5 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

mote amp

What?

 

 

6 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

But it turn out even worse than before, since F2P players somehow have even poorer coordination than most players, since WF attract third person shooter players, not your standard MMORPG kind of dudes.

This superiority complex yet again just makes me even more glad those raids were removed.

[MiMiren]

11 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Issues is no one can be coordinated enough and start screaming how difficult it is.
When done in  Clans with proper experience, it is a smooth breeze.
Add in the bugs which only experienced raiders knew how to *cough* exploit or get around, it is not very entry friendly.
Thus the sky rocketing Arcane prices then.

Warframe was already very hard to get into because there is a lot of things for a new player to do.
And more endgame content locked behind an even unfriendlier wall, well you get the drift.

So by then DE considered it a lost cause and culled raids altogether.
They had hope that coordination puzzle based raids will reduce the "DPS gate" or "Item check" raids of other games.
But it turn out even worse than before, since F2P players somehow have even poorer coordination than most players, since WF attract third person shooter players, not your standard MMORPG kind of dudes.

Hence they turned to Eidolons instead, which is a DPS gate design (seriously using mote amp to break shield is a frustration, a clear item check).

The main problem was the inability to get a team using public matchmaking. While many people might say, that would be bad, I played a team based game with very steep learning curve that allowed public matchmaking. Lots of toxicity and fails but in the end many players learned and cooperated.

Players will cooperate if that's what it takes to get the loot they want. But many will not bother trying to look for teammates, especially since its another bothersome step that doesn't involve playing the game at all. At that point it won't be worth it. Becomes more like a real job, looking for qualified people, recruitment and all that.

[fatpig84]

9 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

What?

 

 

This superiority complex yet again just makes me even more glad those raids were removed.

Mote amp is the default amp the Quills give you, trying to break an Eidolon shield with it is an exercise in frustration.
Most Pub Eidolon hunting teams will outright leave you if you tell em you only got Mote Amp.
So yes, this is a gear check

As for the 2nd point, there is no superiority complex about this. WF advertised itself as a instanced 3rd person shooter ninja game.
When people thought of WF, the closest was Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer or even a tinge of Vanquish or Metal Gear Revengence.
All games that were wildly popular in 2013. 

Those types of games, never required the coordination Raids needed since their players are action players. 
So basically a mis-match to the type of audience, at least for Raid content.

Bottom line Warframe was never meant to attract the MMORPG kind of players who expect 8 men or even 25 men boss raids with explicit coordination (voice comm).  
But those who had the experience and coordination to run raids, it was easy as pie, just gotta avoid bugs.

Edited November 1, 2018 by fatpig84

[feelmepain]

TBH i think with fortuna coming out soon they will be busy i can put my hopes and trust to them  it was never easy to put everything together for this five years 

give them time yeah , they would not do what others devs do we trust our DE they do what they did best and we will help them as a community 

ofc sometimes we wish our selfish ideas will be in-game (like the glaive bug) or unlimited corruption time for our weapons 

they do pick out ideas but with too much idea they have to narrow it down maybe its not everyone taste 

PS:SOLARISUNITED code is avalible now 

[UrielColtan]

53 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

There is no superiority complex about this.

Its the definition.

53 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

WF advertised itself as a instanced 3rd person shooter ninja game....

That was not an established market, and the individual games you mentioned afterward are not that, you have to add them with each other to make your flimsy point, on top of having to pretend they are inferior to standing on pressure plates, pfft. As if such a "puzzle" has much novelty after being solved already either. Warframe is also co-op and advertised as such, unlike those games. I also missed the 100+ clan guilds in those games.

 

53 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Bottom line Warframe was never meant to attract the MMORPG kind of players who expect 8 men or even 25 men boss raids with explicit coordination (voice comm).
So basically a mis-match to the type of audience. 

Bottom line is you are throwing whatever you can at the wall and hoping something will stick, from claims of just not being coordinated and it being due to "F2P", despite F2P MMOs being no stranger to raids, then blaming how the game was advertised, which was not actually an established market, and actually has co-op, unlike the games you compared it to. To also saying Warframe was not meant to attract people who coordinate in other games' raids (Which are apparently inferior to pressure plates) and then turning around and contradicting that by saying that DE appealed more to the player base by actually doing that with Eidolons.

 

53 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

But those who had the experience and coordination to run raids, it was easy as pie, just gotta avoid bugs.

Being easy as pie doesn't mean it will be fun to many people, which was the still present problem. Do you think people don't play archwing missions because they just can't coordinate?

Edited November 1, 2018 by UrielColtan
Grammar

[Eirshy]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Lack of Communication, bad set up, problems with Authority and Discipline, these are not problems of Raids as game Node, but players behaviors. Unfortunately they are still here but they are barely visible because none of the rest  Nodes need so much coordination like Raids needed.

Lack of communication, yes definitely. Part of the problem is that LoR required mid-mission communication.

Bad setup, I mean, kinda? At the same time, people cleared LoR using fishing spears for damage. Setup requirements were pretty lax in actuality. About the only thing that had a "req" was JV needed at least one person with Archwing competence to allow for trench runs.

"Problems with authority and discipline" just lol. This community is actually quite good at partial delegation- Eidolons "prove" this. It's command that it's garbo at, and that's because mid-mission communication is completely optional it pretty much the rest of the game.

You missed the biggest problem, though: the reliance on others. All other content in the game, including Eidolons, even, is actually soloable. No matter how much glue someone else is huffing, you can still clear a run by being hyper-competent yourself (spy missions and lua rescue are partial exceptions, as they can have induced failure states that hyper-competence can't get out of). I usually call this form of party structure the "solo together" party, because all players are in effect soloing, they're just all doing it at the same time. Any pigeon-holing is done based on what the group can do as a group, but at the end of the day, if someone needs to throw the whole party on their back, they can. This is the "opposite" of games that lean on party play. Sure, you can "carry" those by picking up slack left by the other players (I'm very fond of builds designed to do this, myself; my favorite single item in RO was the vitata card (grants the lv1 Heal spell)), but you're not gonna easily cover for them not existing.

 

Which is why this all was a problem with the Raids, not the playerbase. They were content designed for a different group of players than the one present, as they were command-based rather than delegation-based (let alone only partial-delegation) in design. You can claim the fault is on the players all you want, but really, the fault was in the mission design wanting round pegs when they players were majority square. Sure, a good number of us know how to fold in our corners, but why bother when the loot was largely unnecessary and very reliant on bad RNG for anything actually good?

Part of what I'm excited for with the spooders and especially Railjack. DE seems to have actually learned from the failures of LoR/JV given Eidolons and their statements about plans for Railjack. About the only thing I think they botched on Eidolons was the meta-solidifying ban of most powers interacting with operators. Right now in the meta, Trinity and Volt are locked, Chroma is semi-locked, and Harrow only has real competition from Oberon (with Limbo as a weak third).

Edited November 1, 2018 by Eirshy

[fatpig84]

7 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Its the definition.

That was not an established market, and the individual games you mentioned afterward are not that, you have to add them with each other to make your flimsy point, on top of having to pretend they are inferior to standing on pressure plates, pfft. As if such a "puzzle" has much novelty after being solved already either. Warframe is also co-op and advertised as such, unlike those games. I also missed the 100+ clan guilds in those games.

 

Bottom line is you are throwing whatever you can at the wall and hoping something will stick, from claims of just not being coordinated and it being due to "F2P", despite F2P MMOs being no stranger to raids, then blaming how the game was advertised, which was not actually an established market, and actually has co-op, unlike the games you compared it to. To also saying Warframe was not meant to attract people who coordinate in other games' raids (Which are apparently inferior to pressure plates) and then turning around and contradicting that by saying that DE appealed more to the player base by actually doing that with Eidolons.

 

Being easy as pie doesn't mean it will be fun to many people, which was the still present problem. Do you think people don't play archwing missions because they just can't coordinate?

Ok so when is the last time you need a proper delegated roles like tank / dps / heal / support etc for 90% of the game star chart content ?
Not much I guess ?

Warframe from the get go was supposed to be soloable for most content. So extra teammates are nice to have, but not needed.
Even though WF does encourage co-op play because more people means more spawns or faster clear time. 
But the game is simple enough that you don't need a lot of presets or conditions to accomplish anything, because nearly everything has to be soloable.
Hence the majority of content do not require any advanced coordination as this will alienate solo players.
So public games are essentially everyone "playing solo" but with team mates.

Just do your own thing, stay alive as long as possible and no one cares.
Heck you can bring a Mk 1 Braton to Sorties but as long you don't die every 2 minutes, no one will blame you for anything.
Hell a ton of people don't even talk on squad chat as they play.

This is the style of gameplay is that is similar to Mass Effect 3 MP. People just kinda do their own thing and help each other out. 
Then if you are competent, majority of endgame content, Eidolons, ESO  etc all can be done solo.
 

But Raids are different. They actually require voice communications, which is rarely used throughout the entire game itself.
Players must also do tasks in a certain way to succeed, rather than rush in guns blazing or locking down an entire map tile with CC. 
However said players have being conditioned to play a certain way from the beginning and now you are expecting them to change ? 

And once again, when Warframe was released, it was advertised as a cooperative, free to play, third person shooter.
So guess what sort of demographic it will normally attract ? 

[Wind_Blade]

Le 29/10/2018 à 15:26, SenariousNex a dit :

Don't tell this guy about Dark Sector PvP and clan planet ownership and solar rails.

Raids was better than dark sectors... less toxics and more fun

[fatpig84]

6 minutes ago, Wind_Blade said:

Raids was better than dark sectors... less toxics and more fun

Your mileage will vary. But I consider 5% to 10%  of the population controlling the entire market supply and thus pricing of Arcanes far more damaging than just some e-drama.
My old Alliance had very frequent raiders and do sell arcanes. So yeah I know how powerful and wealthy that made certain clans and alliances.

Edited November 1, 2018 by fatpig84

[FlusteredFerret]

On 2018-10-29 at 2:34 PM, Cephalon_9.52 said:

Here is your problem OP, just as your thread title, these videos are clickbait and  hardly ever bring constructive arguments to support their claims. 

About the time you start thinking for yourself.

Exactly. Far too many people watch YouTubers' opinions and accept them as fact, instead of using their own judgement (not limited to gaming either).

This is why Fake News has become a thing.

 

[Wind_Blade]

il y a une heure, fatpig84 a dit :

Your mileage will vary. But I consider 5% to 10%  of the population controlling the entire market supply and thus pricing of Arcanes far more damaging than just some e-drama.
My old Alliance had very frequent raiders and do sell arcanes. So yeah I know how powerful and wealthy that made certain clans and alliances.

I speak about the fun ... not the sell things.. and honestly .. the rares arcanes are still really expensif.. and it's not it's was really hard to get the raids yourself.. the was plenty of runner everyday that accepted newbie and their was the RBS with veterans of raids that help you to get into...

 

The true problems was the lack of introduction of them  by the game (aka only keys foundable hidden in the market)

[Eirshy]

14 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

This is why Fake News has become a thing.

Right problem wrong cause. People are too "trusting" of media personalities in general. Youtube news actually tends to be a lot more "reliable" in terms of real-ness, since it's usually either clear editorial (ie, reading news off of some pub and telling opinions), or low-budget in-the-weeds footage from like a gopro or smartphone.

[UrielColtan]

3 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

Ok so when is the last time you need a proper delegated roles like tank / dps / heal / support etc for 90% of the game star chart content ?
Not much I guess ?....

Not since Overwatch, the game you apparently want, with its epic raids and 'puzzles". You're confusing pigeonholed abilities with whether people are cooperative or not, but that is not what cooperation has to be conducive to. And thankfully most frames are not solely defined by narrow roles like "tank", "dps", and "healer", only being able to use "certain" weapons and such. That stuff is droll, and would breed some Overwatch like cancer over here for even the most straight forward of missions, because it isn't actually about difficulty or anything, its the artificial sensation of being a Yugioh "master strategist", and the Rick and Morty esque feeling of superior intelligence one gets from power tripping over obligating roles.

The funny thing too is that raids could be done with any frame, a whole team of the same frame even.

 

3 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

And once again, when Warframe was released, it was advertised as a cooperative, free to play, third person shooter.
So guess what sort of demographic it will normally attract ? 

Go on, tell me about the demographic. I like how you are further reducing description of Warframe down into some narrower definition to suit some narrative you are trying to push, btw.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by UrielColtan

[Radagosh]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb fatpig84:

But Raids are different. They actually require voice communications, which is rarely used throughout the entire game itself.
Players must also do tasks in a certain way to succeed, rather than rush in guns blazing or locking down an entire map tile with CC. 
However said players have being conditioned to play a certain way from the beginning and now you are expecting them to change ? 

Stop making sense. He'll call you toxic elitist, nonsensical and tell you you are strawmanning for pointing out his straw men. You won't convince him of anything for he is like a helicopter parent that wants to teach the teacher how to teach a child. No experience in the field but a lot of opinions. I mean he called you a rick and morty fan as an insult in his last comment, by now I believe he's just trolling and farming reactions out of passionate people he can disagree with.

Just look at my conversation with him as a reverence. Ignore that dude, saves both this topic from being locked and you from wanting to hit yourself with a shovel in the face.

Also, I've seen a lot of arguments about market prices. True, back in the day we [raiders not vets, there you go I explained the pronoun this time :)] earned a S#&$ton from arcanes, but the raids ran for a bit while eidolons also were a thing, and I doubt we(sill raiders) would have complained about the alternative. Especially, since most of the raiders I knew were also 4x3ing in the first weeks and got even richer (I, for example, burned myself out from Eidolons in the first 3 weeks of their launch, but hey 5k plat is 5k plat)

[UrielColtan]

1 hour ago, Radagosh said:

Stop making sense. He'll call you toxic elitist, nonsensical and tell you you are strawmanning for pointing out his straw men. You won't convince him of anything for he is like a helicopter parent that wants to teach the teacher how to teach a child. No experience in the field but a lot of opinions. I mean he called you a rick and morty fan as an insult in his last comment, by now I believe he's just trolling and farming reactions out of passionate people he can disagree with.

Just look at my conversation with him as a reverence. Ignore that dude, saves both this topic from being locked and you from wanting to hit yourself with a shovel in the face.

Also, I've seen a lot of arguments about market prices. True, back in the day we [raiders not vets, there you go I explained the pronoun this time :)] earned a S#&$ton from arcanes, but the raids ran for a bit while eidolons also were a thing, and I doubt we(sill raiders) would have complained about the alternative. Especially, since most of the raiders I knew were also 4x3ing in the first weeks and got even richer (I, for example, burned myself out from Eidolons in the first 3 weeks of their launch, but hey 5k plat is 5k plat)

I don't see how calling the playerbase dumb and undisciplined, I.E.displaying of blatant superiority rhetoric, nor how projecting your laments as a raider, onto the veterans, adds to the discussion, beyond maybe showcasing a superiority complex of raiders that was part of what truly disinterested players. 

But keep pushing the derailing narrative after this merely being noticed.

Sorry i won't leave here and join you in your German discord btw while you are here in the actual place of discussion pushing the narrative that i said you would.

Edited November 1, 2018 by UrielColtan

[zetheros1]

wrong thread, oops

Edited November 1, 2018 by zetheros1
wrong thread