Idea for Zephir and Chroma

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Leave this one, @Caelward they're going counter-logical now.

Says that multiple frames do similar things, except differently, then re-iterates that Zephyr should fly like Titania... genius.

Still insists on the idea of only flying on the Plains or open landscapes.

Thinks that energy efficiency won't be affected by a drain.

Believes you don't need Turbulence if you're mobile against Hitscan enemies.

Thinks that they want a Jet, not a helicopter when they clearly stated that they want to 'allow Zephir to stop 30 meters above the enemies, then quickly re-locate 15 meters to their right, now fly through them and stop 20 meters on the other side while shooting at each stop'.

This one's a lot cause.

That's why I didn't even waste my time on this. 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

1. Warframes do not get different abilities just for going onto a different mission. This was raised and turned down by DE over a year ago. You do not get to say that this flying ability would 'only work on the plains', that is not an option.

DE also said that Exilus mods are for movement only but look where we are...

[(XBOX)Damokles1818]

On 2018-10-30 at 1:13 PM, Hawner said:

Hi. I would like to share an idea I had that involves these 2 frames.

When Zephir came out, we all thought we would be flying around corridors or stay several meters above ground in open areas as we made bullets rain down over Greener, Corpus or Infested. Naturally, that couldn't be done at the time (technical issues, not a good idea at the time...). Now, we have Archwings and we can use them in open maps such as Plains of eidolon and the upcoming Fortuna.

Thing is, while every frame can use the archwing for that purpose (flying around the map), there is one that has her own "archwing", so to speak: Titania.

Obviously, it doesn't work the same. She becomes smaller (fairy size) in order to be able to manoeuver inside halls and such, and her speed isn't much greater than that of any other frame bullet-running. Still, it offers a mechanic normally unique for Archwing.

It is a feature obvious for a fairy-like frame to have, but so would it be for one based on a bird. Or a winged dragon.

That is why I thought of something to allow these two frames to become what I think they should. At least, as long as they are in the Eidolon fields or Fortuna's map, that is.

Note: I am going to mention Titania a lot for comparison, so you get the idea of what my ideas are.

 

Zephir:

This frame can use her first skill to impulse herself into the air at high speeds and cross the map with a couple uses of that ability. That is the second use, the first one being to stay for several seconds a couple of meters in the air and shoot from that advanced location.

My idea would be to change how that skill works only in maps such as Eidolon fields and such. In there, charging normally would activate the "flight mode", which would channel energy at a rate similar to Titania's 4th ability (maybe even a little slower) and allow for very fast movement around the map, and pressing Shift while on movement (the same we use to run) would give a speed boost (similar to the Archwing's turbo) for fast traveling.

Edit: suggested by (PS4)ArtPrince17, these change would work in a similar way as Vauban's Minelayer or Ivara's Quiver, where we can change the effect of the skill in a rotating fashion: one option leaves the skill as it is now and the other applies the changes I suggest. That way, those who want to use Tailwind/dive bomb as normal when both styles are available, they would be able to.

During the use of this "flight mode", and contrary to what you can do with Titania or the Archwing, you can't use any weapons at all (Titania has wings on her back, letting her hands free, and the Archwing does similar). However, if you stop in the air and press the ability again, you create air currents that keep you in the air stationary (can't move around while like that) but you can use your weapons to defend yourself, and then press it again to go back to "flight mode". Of course, while of "flight mode" you would be able to use other abilities to attack instead of your weapons.

Basically, Zephir would be a fast flyer, but not as offensive in combat as other frames without putting herself in danger (staying put in the air for long periods of time is not exactly a good idea). You would need to either change between "hovering mode" and "flight mode" during the fight to re-ubicate yourself to a better position or fly fast to a location and then land to fight the enemies.

 

Chroma:

We all know of the "sentry mode" you have by pressing the 4th ability. Chroma's armor grows some amazing wings, detaches itself and attacks to any enemies around it while the player moves around. I think those epic wings are very underused.

My idea for Chroma would be to add another effect to that ability. One press, the sentry detaches like normal; you keep the button pressed, the wings grow but the sentry stays, lifting you in the air for a channeling cost bigger than Titania's (big and heavy body, big energy cost).

Chroma is way heavier than Zephir, so his max speed would be a speed similar to Titania's without turbo, maybe even slower. In exchange, he can use all his weaponry all the time and also his other abilities, becoming quite the offensive dragon and the terror of all creatures bound to the ground (sorry, I had to add some epicness there. XP).

Adding to the energy cost, and this is something I just thought about, so I am not sure if it is a good idea or a terrible one, and to avoid spamming of this ability, after the energy consumed reaches the 50% mark, once the "flight mode" is deactivated, Chroma cannot recover energy from any source at all or use the "flight mode". However, half of the energy used for flying will be reimbursed in the lapse of 10 seconds, after which he will be able to recover energy like normal and fly again.

My logic behind that last part is that, even if he is a dragon, lifting his body and using his powers to attack is very tiring. So, once back on the ground, he needs to let his body rest for a couple of seconds. So to speak, it is more his body overexerting too much and needing to let it recover rather than how much energy it has. This will essentially limit the use of the "flight mode" of Chroma to battle situations or for showing off a little (I would like to be able to use him for flying around just like Zephir or Titania, but I don't know how without overpowering him).

 

I would like to reiterate again that these changes would only be for the Open-world maps, not normal tilesets. Titania can because she becomes tiny and it suits her, but flying around corridors and storage rooms with Zephir banging her head around or Chroma barely being able to move around due to his size, is not a good idea.

 

So, in essence, Zephir would be the fast and maneuverable one, Titania the middle-ground offensive-agile one, and Chroma the heavy offensive. Three frames capable to soar the skies, three different ways to do it.

 

Your thoughts?

ZephYr

[Birdframe_Prime]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

DE also said that Exilus mods are for movement only but look where we are...

Context, my young padawan, context ^^

Exilus mods, and the Exilus slot, were implemented for Utility. As a way to get people to use more mods to do with Parkour or Recovery.

The rule about movement came in for Augments. Augments that provide Movement only are the ones allowed in the Exilus. And they had to state that because everyone kept asking why Hysterical Assault and Escape Velocity were in the Exilus, followed by Mesa's Waltz and then more recently by Conductor, and none of the others were.

A key difference is that when literally hundreds of threads opened up after the Plains claiming that Warframes weren't meant for open landscapes because of the now comparatively low range of them when in the context of a field with not cover... DE basically said 'that's the point? you have to learn how to use them in the new setting, and find new meta frames.'

Of course, that little laugh has its own discussions, but you see what I mean.

[Caelward]

9 hours ago, Hawner said:

 ZephYr

Capitalizing the Y is just doubling down on your ignorance of language and convention and DE's naming choice. I mean, if you want to act like a twelve year old...

 

Tailwind already allows her a 'different form of flight' via attack dashing which was already in the game. Our other options are archwing flight or no clip mode like Wukong. I don't consider that a choice. Zephyr is a small enough frame in terms of popularity that DE is unlikely to spend the time to make something wholly new. They have more than enough data to determine just how large her demographic is.

And with Tailwind before the rework, I could literally fly in any tileset. Any tileset. After the rework I reduced her duration to make it manageable, and I had to learn to make do without the launch, but I can still do it. You're saying I shouldn't be able to do that? On what basis? All frames have the same capability wherever they are. I mastered her quick launch and dash. Every new tileset was nothing more than an opportunity to learn the angles and find the corridors. Taking Zephyr top speed through constricted tilesets that I have mastered is FUN. It is one of the central parts of her whole kit!

Did I say we should only use one frame? I did say no frame can be overly similar to another. Different tools for different jobs is how hero systems work. Zephyr exists for her niche and Titania for another. What part of this conversation was about only using the one frame? Your suggestion is what would make this whole idea an actual issue. I'm arguing against it because I can see the problem a mile away.

Turbulence defends you from incredible amounts of damage while stationary and on the move. What it doesn't defend you from is specific explosive weapons and flame throwers. Just... take Zephyr out for a walk in the plains and don't ever use Turbulence. As long as you don't stick around for an engagement you should be fine but... And incidentally, with Turbulence Zephyr is in fact a tank. She lands in an area, disrupts enemies and draws endless amounts of enemy fire. If you want to cover your weak spot, take a splashy melee weapon.

You AND I have proven nothing else than we have different opinions, but I wonder just going by time alone, how long we have spent developing those ideas. I can only believe you've played a fraction of the amount I have and decided to die on this issue that I cant imagine by any stretch will ever happen.

Let me repeat that. You've proven nothing. What you say here is nothing more than your own opinion, it was never a matter of fact.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Caelward

[Hawner]

You know what? I don't care anymore. I was trying to share an idea but you are so blinded by things that are not affected or wouldn't ruin anything at all that you won't even try to just... I don't know, try to participate. You just want to shut it down because... what? No matter what arguments you bring, they are always the same that I explained before that would not get affected in the slightest. I am tired of repeating the same over and over the same thing to the same people that don't want to listen.

I thought DE had made a very cruel move (I can't use the word I wanted here, so that will have to do) not listening to players anymore, but now I see why they HAD to do it. It's just luck we still get good content with how things are.

 

hace 14 minutos, Caelward dijo:

Capitalizing the Y is just doubling down on your ignorance of language and convention and DE's naming choice. I mean, if you want to act like a twelve year old...

1

Actually, it was my way of showing that I understood that I had made a mistake and that I remembered all those times to write it correctly. The fact that you took it the wrong way just adds to the reasons I am not discussing this issue any longer.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hawner

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, Hawner said:

You know what? I don't care anymore. I was trying to share an idea but you are so blinded by things

To be fair... it was a pretty bad idea.

[Hawner]

hace 58 minutos, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

To be fair... it was a pretty bad idea.

So thought several videogame companies about Warframe that didn't want to be part of the project, and you can see where it is now.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

47 minutes ago, Hawner said:

So thought several videogame companies about Warframe that didn't want to be part of the project, and you can see where it is now.

Yup, and you're certainly not Steve lol. 

[Hawner]

hace 3 horas, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

Yup, and you're certainly not Steve lol. 

Certainly not, but the point stands.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Hawner said:

Certainly not, but the point stands.

Heh, no.

The point you're trying to make is that if you keep trying and put in the hard work, things can be a success regardless. The point fails because you're not putting in any of the work, you're re-hashing four year old discussions that we were there for and you (sadly in this case) weren't, and suggesting that somebody else do all the work for you.

What this amounts to is saying 'Other people thought this was a bad idea, but if I keep saying it's a good idea, somebody may believe me and do it for me.'

[Hawner]

hace 3 horas, Thaylien dijo:

Heh, no.

The point you're trying to make is that if you keep trying and put in the hard work, things can be a success regardless. The point fails because you're not putting in any of the work, you're re-hashing four year old discussions that we were there for and you (sadly in this case) weren't, and suggesting that somebody else do all the work for you.

What this amounts to is saying 'Other people thought this was a bad idea, but if I keep saying it's a good idea, somebody may believe me and do it for me.'

Heh, no.

The point that I am trying to make is that people may incorrectly think your idea won't work or is bad, yet it doesn't have to be.

Yet again, wrong, as with all the rest.

[Birdframe_Prime]

25 minutes ago, Hawner said:

The point that I am trying to make is that people may incorrectly think your idea won't work or is bad, yet it doesn't have to be.

Interesting how those other people include the Developers, because they didn't put in this idea even after three years of people campaigning to give her flight and discussing it over and over again.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, Hawner said:

Yet again, wrong, as with all the rest.

It must be tough being you, 😂.

Well, to end this, you don't have my support for this idea. Its terrible and not well thought it. It has coherent flaws that you refuse to admit and its just sad watching you try to defend it rather than open your mind to the possibility that you should reevaluate your ideas. 

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Interesting how those other people include the Developers, because they didn't put in this idea even after three years of people campaigning to give her flight and discussing it over and over again.

Obviously the devs aren't as smart as him. They're just wrong over and over again.

Devs never considered the genius idea of flight.

Edited November 2, 2018 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Hawner]

hace 1 hora, Thaylien dijo:

Interesting how those other people include the Developers, because they didn't put in this idea even after three years of people campaigning to give her flight and discussing it over and over again.

Wrong argument and completely out of context. Yeah, i am the wrong here, right?

 

hace 1 hora, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

It must be tough being you, 😂.

Well, to end this, you don't have my support for this idea. Its terrible and not well thought it. It has coherent flaws that you refuse to admit and its just sad watching you try to defend it rather than open your mind to the possibility that you should reevaluate your ideas. 

 

Actually no, it's pretty easy. Some problems dealing with ***** people, but that is part of life.

Those flaws you speak of are not such, since I already debunked them, and those that I didn't are not even worth the time so illogical they are. So go ahead and say whatever you want.

[Birdframe_Prime]

51 minutes ago, Hawner said:

since I already debunked them

Denial is not debunking.

[Hawner]

Justo ahora, Thaylien dijo:

Denial is not debunking.

Denial implies that I didn't offer arguments against you, which I did. You are the one denying actually.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, Hawner said:

Denial implies that I didn't offer arguments against you, which I did. You are the one denying actually.

Arguments. Yes. Let me go find those quotes:

In relation to 'energy drain abilities will adversely affect her energy efficiency', basis; observation of same effect on other frames, and use of such as functional nerfs on frames that were considered too easy to maintain those drains, such as Revenant, Valkyr and Ember.

Your response; 

On 2018-10-31 at 5:11 PM, Hawner said:

Yes, it is obvious that it has to work that way. All birds have to land at some point to rest and eat, why wouldn't Zephir? It is the perfect method to simulate "resting" and to avoid excessive use as well as the use of too many other skills while you fly. That not only helps regulate its use, it adds at least 2 new gamestyles: either you fly long periods an barely use other skills as you shoot or you move both on land and flying, re-ubicating continually and use the energy for the other skills.

Which is not a response, it is an explanation of how the style of play would go, how energy drain would limit the use of flying, with no comment on actual energy efficiency in relation to how it's a nerf from her current status.

When it was pointed out again;

21 hours ago, Hawner said:

I didn't say "not being affected", more like "not being affected negatively", and that is after I also clearly said that energy costs and those kinds of details could be tinkered with if and when the concept itself where to be worked on.

Which again, is blue sky dreaming. We know exactly how Drains function in Warframe, we know exactly how they are used by the Devs.

We know exactly how flying works in Warframe, we were told all of its limitations and functions by the Devs during the problems they had implementing it into the main game as Sharkwing and then Sky Archwing instead of being a separate game mode in its own unique tile set.

These two statements you have made do not debunk the argument, they ignore it. They deny it.

Look...

All arguments aside.

The three people that have commented here on your thread, me, Renova and Caelward, are three of the longest standing Zephyr Thread writers on these forums. There are others, like Azamagon and ObviousLee (who is the guy who most viciously fought for Flying on Zephyr) and more that I could summon, who are not very common sights anymore. We're the people responsible for about 90% of the debates and improvement threads that existed from late 2016 to her actual rework in early 2018.

Flying was something that cropped up so often that we genuinely wrote threads where we debated how it could work.

We tried for months to find a solution that did work and wasn't a nerf to her functionality. And eventually we came up with a simple mantra (well, except ObviousLee...) that was 'There is nothing that a Flying Zephyr could do that a non-Flying Zephyr couldn't do.'

And this exists, not because Zephyr couldn't Fly, but because making her Fly has no actual reward. No function in the game that actually improved Zephyr's play style. In general it was actually a hindrance because Zephyr is supposed to be fast on the ground as much as she is off the ground. Her abilities are supposed to be quick and responsive, a slight mis-aim should not send you sliding off into a corner, or pin you above a door, when you need CC to cover you while you re-cast Turbulence it should be there. 

There are so many improvements that could have been made to Zephyr that do not involve Flying, and would really make her a power-house of Area Denial, Potential Damage boosting, Evasion and Mobility.

But the only rework she ever got ignored years of actual feedback and followed only the shoutiest people, who only wanted 'some kind of new 2' and to merge Tailwind and Dive Bomb into one ability.

All of the problems we foresaw with our debates came true. Every. One. We were right and ever since the community asking about these problems has only been proof of it.

We have years of experience on this, and instead of you looking for actual ways to improve Zephyr with your thread, you insist on beating the same dead horse over and over and claiming that we're the ones in the wrong.

We tried. It didn't work. We moved on. And when we moved on, DE ignored us even then.

Zephyr will not fly, and because of the thousands of times this has come up before, we know that she should not fly. There are better things for Zephyr than flying.

[Hawner]

hace 1 minuto, Thaylien dijo:

 

 

Let me save you the time, I already told you I am not going to discuss this any further so I didn't read that. You are twisting everything to your favor instead of admitting that you are wrong, taking things out of context or even adding issues that are non-existent.

So, thanks, but don't care.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Hawner said:

Let me save you the time, I already told you I am not going to discuss this any further so I didn't read that. You are twisting everything to your favor instead of admitting that you are wrong, taking things out of context or even adding issues that are non-existent.

So, thanks, but don't care.

LOL are you kidding me? 

Beyond pathetic and oh so ironic. Just can't handle being wrong. I don't even feel bad for you or pity you in the least.

[Hawner]

hace 5 minutos, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

Just can't handle being wrong.

 

Says the one who couldn't prove me wrong yet.

 

hace 5 minutos, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

I don't even feel bad for you or pity you in the least.

 

Not that I need them from you.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hawner

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Hawner said:

Says the one who couldn't prove me wrong yet.

 

Not that I need them from you.

Oh now you're brave again? 

You've already been proven wrong, by Thaylien. Does his name strike fear into your fingers now mr I dont care anymore lol

[Hawner]

hace 1 minuto, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru dijo:

Oh now you're brave again? 

You've already been proven wrong, by Thaylien. Does his name strike fear into your fingers now mr I dont care anymore lol

If you say so. My post remain here for all to see. Any user that checks them will be able to confirm that I replied and argumented against everything that either of you threw at me. So far, you didn't win even one time.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Hawner said:

If you say so. My post remain here for all to see. Any user that checks them will be able to confirm that I replied and argumented against everything that either of you threw at me. So far, you didn't win even one time.

By my count only a single person agree with your post about Zephyr. Are you dumb? Doesn't looking like winning to me when everyone else met your post with criticism.