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Complete conclave rework


-RR-DemiZ
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Hello everyone.

There is one thing I'd like to hear your opinion about. I think that conclave is a neglected and forgotten mode. Especially by developers and players. Imo this mode has really big potential for being something exciting. Warframe has the most universal game mechanic, making PvE really dynamic. If we could realise its full potential into conclave, I'm pretty sure it would be a successful step. Players could fight against each other or against team. There would be some divisions describing skills of each player. Honestly, i don't have many ideas for this mode, but I'm sure it need a rework. What do you think about it ?

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I think the biggest thing that it would take to make conclave enjoyable is to rework how movement works in there. Movement is too fast in Warframe to support good pvp FPS. Dont get me wrong, the movement system is amazingly fun in pve, but it does not lend itself at all to pvp.

 

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19 minutes ago, Erytroxylin said:

I think the biggest thing that it would take to make conclave enjoyable is to rework how movement works in there. Movement is too fast in Warframe to support good pvp FPS. Dont get me wrong, the movement system is amazingly fun in pve, but it does not lend itself at all to pvp.

 

I think movement is fine. It's not faster than average space shooter. Main pain points of pvp is the weapon balance as AoE weapons are clearly better than others and P2P hosting system. I know there are dedicated servers, but it's up to people to host them.
Also there is no incentives to do pvp. Skins and mods are fine, but thats it - there is no leaderboards, tournaments, events are very scarce. Plus there is no rewards that could boost "normal" play maybe outside relics.

1. Balance the weapons or even remove unbalanceable ones
2. Give us decent servers and ensure their smooth running (that was one of things that completely ruined your Awesome Eternals game in alpha state)
3. More incentives to do conclave. For example "first win of the day" with resources, mod/relic packs, kuva, endo
4. Events. They could be simple team tournaments or 1vs1 duels.
5. Leaderboards, leagues, ladders, emphasized stats. PvPers like to brag about their ranks and k/d ratios.

Edited by RobWasHere
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I honestly think it should be just taken out completely It was a interesting idea and they gave it a few shots but it just did not work for this game so there no reason it should even be kept in here its basically a dead weight taking up system resources.  and a huge un needed headache from people screaming for balancing when the mode is basically not used anymore to begin with.  pvp just causes toxic comunities in games even more so when things not easily balanced when so much affects the weapons and frames like modsm what rank they are and what combination.  then have people that avoid pvp like plague hating the changes caused by the pvp people crying.   

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The main things Conclave needs is a stamina system to limit movement but not strip it away from the player, an incentive to actually play, aside from materials you pretty much get nothing from Conclave, the Syndicate only offers Conclave related mods and weapon skins (Which are nice but impossible to get because of the lack of players), and a complete re balance, certain weapons are downright broken *Cough* Ignis Wraith *Cough*. Lastly there needs to be some special events to attract players, like alerts or something that happen every now and then to make people actually play it.

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What we need for PVP is a more of a traditional feel of Ninja culture and competition. We don't need Tenno fighting Tenno in modern day Free-For-All or Team VS Team kill counters.

We need competitions for strength and dexterity, something that would promote players to queue into matches and enjoy the existing mechanics of the game. We could see this in a couple of settings:

Strength Challenge

Players are presented a modern Wing Chun Dummy, that requires sections to be damaged by certain weapon types to receive damage. So the lowest joint would be for Melee and would rotate back and forth in a C rotation opposite your last hit. The mid section would be for Secondary as they tend to have shorter range and would react the same, but at a slightly faster movement. The top would be for primary and react the same as secondary. This would keep our aim agile and reactive to the movement, just as an enemy would move and it's more about your ability to maintain the damage for a period of time than just laying a trigger down. Every player would get 30 seconds to total their damage and the player with the highest amount each round would win. Would be cool too as you'd see a variation of players using high single shot weapons versus lower damage with continued bursts/beams.

Challenges for this could include doing so much damage with one weapon type, or across all types in one match.

Dexterity Challenge

Players are placed in adapting courses to navigate and react to changes quickly, ultimately the goal being to reach the end of the course first. It could be a narrow hallway that looks fine at first and then suddenly the tiles are replaced with elemental hazards, falling floors and raising/lowering walls that force you to dive/jump through the openings before they close or suffer time delays until the rise/lower again. Traps that stall you either through ice or electrical lock. More could be imagined.

Challenges for this could be not receiving a status affect or completing a course under a certain time.

Intelligence Challenge

Players are presented with interactive maps or puzzles they must solve, like on the Tau maps. These would be timed and could have elements implemented to stall/delay/distract you like Magnetic Procs/Blinding lights. This would also be a time focused event.

Challenges for this could be completing under a said amount of time, or completing so many in a day.

 

I think this form of PVP would be more engaging and draw in a different crowd, and give us the chance to finally grind Conclave for all the goodies.

Edited by (XB1)Kuljack
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Biggest problem with the Conclave is that it just doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. Yes, it would be more fair and playable with proper dedicated servers and when they did give that option, the ship had sailed. Impressions were made and repairing it from there was not going to work. The fact that few of the Conclave mods can be used in PvE play is also a contribution to people not wanting to play. There are some very neat mods in there that would water the beak of many players but since they are Conclave only, no dice. A stamina system would help limit the bunnyhopping and slow down the game and movement to be more deliberate and less of a spammy mess. 

But the biggest issue is the fact that by the very nature it is disconnected from the rest of the game. In everywhere else, you are a walking typhoon of genocide. A nigh-unstoppable force of nature. You get into conclave and you're a squishy bouncy ball fighting against other squishy bouncy balls. We are used to fighting hordes and just blatantly overpowering any enemy with sheer brute force that the particular flavor of skills in movement and gunplay do not translate over. It feels "wrong" when in PvE I can slash-dash through an entire room and then go into Conclave for that same attack completely miss my target at 3m or do jack-all but make them stumble a bit. That disconnect is the main issue. 

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14 часов назад, Erytroxylin сказал:

I think the biggest thing that it would take to make conclave enjoyable is to rework how movement works in there. Movement is too fast in Warframe to support good pvp FPS. Dont get me wrong, the movement system is amazingly fun in pve, but it does not lend itself at all to pvp.

 

Totally agree.

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12 hours ago, Lakais said:

Biggest problem with the Conclave is that it just doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. Yes, it would be more fair and playable with proper dedicated servers and when they did give that option, the ship had sailed. Impressions were made and repairing it from there was not going to work. The fact that few of the Conclave mods can be used in PvE play is also a contribution to people not wanting to play. There are some very neat mods in there that would water the beak of many players but since they are Conclave only, no dice. A stamina system would help limit the bunnyhopping and slow down the game and movement to be more deliberate and less of a spammy mess. 

But the biggest issue is the fact that by the very nature it is disconnected from the rest of the game. In everywhere else, you are a walking typhoon of genocide. A nigh-unstoppable force of nature. You get into conclave and you're a squishy bouncy ball fighting against other squishy bouncy balls. We are used to fighting hordes and just blatantly overpowering any enemy with sheer brute force that the particular flavor of skills in movement and gunplay do not translate over. It feels "wrong" when in PvE I can slash-dash through an entire room and then go into Conclave for that same attack completely miss my target at 3m or do jack-all but make them stumble a bit. That disconnect is the main issue. 

This, I'd rather we keep our abilities more or less as strong as they are in PvE and instead up the defenses of every warframe accordingly. Limit those abilities by CD and GCD between casts and it could also be balanced better.

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I suppose instead of holding players back from movements, just use a super large map like PoE.
The whole map is kind of big enough where unless you are attack a particular spot and the defender is able to use ability to kill you,
weapons will come to a lot of play when you are trying to prevent an enemy from escaping by sniping them.

The same modding in PVE will be used in PVP, because of the disconnection currently conclave is a totally different game, when you put hundreds of hours
getting used to how hard your sword hit now it suddenly turned into a toy sword that barely cuts your enemy, or the attack speed totally 
nerfed beyond recognition you might as well try play other game for PVP.

Weapons stats will need to be the same in PVP as they are in PVE.



a CTF mode might be nice to begin with.

This isn't anywhere slow.

 

 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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11 hours ago, TheRealShade said:

This, I'd rather we keep our abilities more or less as strong as they are in PvE and instead up the defenses of every warframe accordingly. Limit those abilities by CD and GCD between casts and it could also be balanced better.

But the disconnect is still there. Not to mention that some (most) abilities will not translate over well. Using said abilities is all fun and dandy on PvE mooks, but getting them used on YOU is an entirely different mater. How would you feel if I, in my Excal, fwooped in from out of nowhere, faster then you can react, nix your shields and maybe a part of your health, leave you knocked over and then proceed to shoot you in the face? And all it would take me to do so is having you SOMEWHERE in the general vicinity of the center of my screen. Just as same I would really no appreciate being suddenly turned into an incredibly slow, glowing claymore by your Nova's ult (going by the avatar) from the other side of the map. Or getting suddenly melted by Corrosive and Viral damage from a Saryn, or getting suspended in air after heavy damage by a Rhino or turned into a health-shield piniata by a Trinity. The list goes on. Some things that look nice and work great in PvE would be stupidly infuriating and damn near impossible to counter in PvP unless heavily modified and nerfed. Like they have done. 

The changes were made for a good reason. Problem is, that Warframe at the very core is not PvP friendly. I honestly believe that those few brave, insane souls in DE tasked with PvP balance are doing the honest best they can to keep the weapons and abilities not just fun or tolerable to use, but fun or tolerable to be used on. That is an incredibly important part of PvP combat design that very many seem to forget, You need to make sure that something at least feels fair if it's used on you. 

Is the current balance good? No. By the sheer insane size of the arsenal available to us, there will forever be those meta and "noobtube" weapons and frames. But it's the best they can do with the limited resources dedicated to it. I think DE has like one or two guys who's job, along with all the other big things they are working on, is to balance PvP. So many hours in the day and so little incentive to spend those on Conclave.

And lastly, the biggest hurtle and disconnect between the two gameplays is that Conclave is far more skill demanding. Both the skill ceiling and the floor are much higher. In PvE we don't make use of the mobility and the accuracy based twitch-shooting skills as much as we need to in Conclave. We are lazy in PvE, but go to a match with Conclave vets and you can see parkour movements that'll spin your top and they can STILL hit you with a Daikyu shot to the face while you're there gawking going "You can do that?". We don't NEED those skills in PvE because of the way it is structured and the insane level of power granted to us. The closest we have to that in PvE is Rathuum and Index, just barely. 

11 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I suppose instead of holding players back from movements, just use a super large map like PoE.
The whole map is kind of big enough where unless you are attack a particular spot and the defender is able to use ability to kill you,
weapons will come to a lot of play when you are trying to prevent an enemy from escaping by sniping them.

The same modding in PVE will be used in PVP, because of the disconnection currently conclave is a totally different game, when you put hundreds of hours
getting used to how hard your sword hit now it suddenly turned into a toy sword that barely cuts your enemy, or the attack speed totally 
nerfed beyond recognition you might as well try play other game for PVP.

Weapons stats will need to be the same in PVP as they are in PVE.



a CTF mode might be nice to begin with

There already is a CTF mode, Capture the Cephalon. But as you said, the problem is that the maps are too small. Not to mention that there are no movement limiters to Cephalon holders (the no bulletjump rule from Lunaro would be a godsend) 

And as I said above, the issue is that you CAN'T have that kind of power and have the game feel fair. You can get just that kind of power PvP with PvE loadouts in your Dojo's duel rooms and it would not work in any capacity in larger scale game modes where actual rewards are involved. 

Also, Conclave is very much a different game. For example, did you know that Slash, Impact and Puncture damage work differently? Slash does equal damage to shields and health, Puncture does more to health and less to shields and Impact is the opposite to Puncture. Suggesting quick weapon swaps and the like. To repeat, Conclave is MUCH more skill demanding. You can't get away with just throwing stuff at the enemy because your gun does 2000 damage of every type, hits through four walls and fills an entire hallway. (well, most don't). You need to constantly move in erratic ways while still engaging targets doing their very best not to get hit by moving very fast and very randomly. 

Also Tribes is a very different game, it does not have the baggage that Warframe's conclave has. And isn't it also dead? 

Edited by Lakais
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I would like De to turn Conclave over to another developer like they did with the Switch and remove Conclave altogether from Warframe and then re-release it as free-to-play Warframe PVP only...that way PVE can be free of PVP and PVP can be free of PVE...then both games can have the extra space to do whatever without having to worry about cosmetics and balancing and all that jazz that makes everyone somewhat crazy...

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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as far as i'm concerned, they can do whatever they like with conclave, since I do not and likely never will possess the desire to play it. it wouldn't do anything for me, but for the game as a whole, a constant supply of players on PvP modes could be a good thing. there's just one problem: regular PvP doesn't seem to cut it anymore. modes like Battle Royale and Gambit have taken over in a market saturated with PvP content, and only the absolute most unique and innovative gameplay will be able to draw players away from titles like BO4 and Fortnite, which it can be argued do PvP in better ways. classic modes like TDM will always be around, but from what i've seen of the PvP crowd, they want something more these days; more layers to their gameplay than just shooting other players, which is the core of the experience of course, but on it's own, it's no longer enough.

i'm not entirely sure DE would be able to pull off something that unique: they already tried and failed with Lunaro, though in part this was because they were following Rocket League: the number one trend at the time. they've tried again with Frame Fighter, but it doesn't have that competitive atmosphere that true PvP modes have, and that's what Conclavers are crying out for. but like I said, I don't care enough about PvP to even bother with Conclave, so it won't affect me, but improvements should still be added for the small but dedicated Conclave community.

 

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В 31.10.2018 в 18:24, -RR-DemiZ сказал:

Hello everyone.

There is one thing I'd like to hear your opinion about. I think that conclave is a neglected and forgotten mode. Especially by developers and players. Imo this mode has really big potential for being something exciting. Warframe has the most universal game mechanic, making PvE really dynamic. If we could realise its full potential into conclave, I'm pretty sure it would be a successful step. Players could fight against each other or against team. There would be some divisions describing skills of each player. Honestly, i don't have many ideas for this mode, but I'm sure it need a rework. What do you think about it ?

Ideas
Firstly, it is a core main idea - remove Peer to Peer connection. I will explain. Host by using soft such as NetLimiter can cut down connection speed to any connected client (in IP table) that is why host can freeze or kick anyone in session (It is a real cheats). DE cannot ban that guys because cheaters can say that they have a bad internet and netlimiter itself didnot work with warframe process it works only with players IP addresses. Also it would possibly prevent guys who gain reputation with friends (illegal way of gaining rep). DE have enough money to keep dedicated servers.


Secondly, parkour (this changes that i will offer is for only PvP not PvE). we need to return the old parkour without coptering. why? because today players can move so fast and it is very very inpossible to aim (especially for console players). Or we need return stamina to conclave (for example one bullet jump will eat full stamina bar) to cut down the movement and make shooting possible and comfort for everyone.


Thirdly, rewards. Weapons skins are good. Warframe conclave skins would be good too. Adding kuva or weapon/warframe/riven slots or riven mods or catalyst/reactor/exilus adapter as a rewards etc in the end of the match would motivate players to play conclave.

4. It is sepetare. Return reworked DARK SECTORS (clans,alliances PvP) it will improve problem that clans is useless. I cant offer something in darksectors rework but for example DE can make this thing: if the alliance keeper hold his sector for a week every alliance member will recieve a catalyst or 14d boosters etc, make not only credit reward for mission (add resources (resource donation to the sector will increase resource farms)). 

5. Make frame fighter giving conclave reputation.

About TTK and balance. Warframe conclave team work hard enough. I checked the weapons. And it is fine. Most weapons are usable, there is not overbalanced equip.

 

Of course there is a players that did not want play PvP content in any case. That is why PvP and the rewards I offer will not harm players that avoid PvP content because it will be unnecessary content. 

 

PvP is a real endgame. Mostly PvP is for veterans because today they do not know what to do in a game because they have everything and there is nothing what can challenge them.  It can make devs to have more time to create giant and exellent content and in a content hunger time players will not leave the game.

Sorry for my English. I tried my best.

Edited by ---UMBRA---
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instead of a complete rework, some changes, fixed arsenal of weapons/frames that is available for everyone, like personally i own all weapons and all frames but that is not 100% fair to who doesn't own everything like i do, what else, does a frame really needs 4 abilities in pvp? i think 1, 2 abilities totally different from the pve ones for every frame should make more sense on pvp, mods are okay i guess

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Made a whole .txt a while ago about what is possible to do with conclave (imo). I guess I can share it randomly here, why not :clem:

 

Révélation

COLLISEUM : New relay like zone with pvp/sports theme. With lunaro courts, race circuits, arcades and pvp fighting maps (graphical hub between all pvp activities, with some unique NPC and shops too+quest)

NEW :

- PVE Lunaro mode (Tournament against all factions, with a team of new brokers for all of them) + A lunaro based boss (located in the colliseum, new PVP lore friendly zone)
- PVE Infested Index-like (a new rule, new team of infested brokers, on Eris floor)
- Loot pvp mods from Index/Rathuum/LunaroPVE/InfestedPVE (equal repartition, the player would have to play all of those to loot everything)
- PVP only players can still buy those mods from Teshin (Teshin have some few exclusive mods too)
- Removing of the PVP/PVE icon, all mods are PVP/PVE (all actual conclave or hybrid ones, not all mods of the game), but for some you can click on the Conclave icon to show the PVP stats if they're different from PVE (removing some PVP mimic mods on the go)
- More cosmetics in Teshin's shop : weapons skins, glyph/emblems, sugatra (lunaro ribbon...), ship decos (noggles, lunaro ball, props, etc)
- New daily PVP variant, with a daily roll for a medal (10k > 50k > 100k standing). When you played the daily variant once, you can roll the Orvius like roulette 1 time each day
- A bunch of new weapon augment mods for the weapons not having any of those and needing some love (since they are now all pvp/pve)
- You can now earn conclave standing with your clan/friends in a private game. Weekly and daily challenges reworked to avoid abuse and frustration (Play X lunaro, X Variants, X Ranked)
- Old challenges can now pop randomly in a PVP game, for all the players at once. The first player (or team) achieving the challenge will earn the points ("Make a slide attack kill" 1k)
- Forge PVP map editor (dojo tileset and parkour room props + dojo decos)
- Add a "lock view to the ball" key to lunaro 

- Stamina jauge is back for PVP, to avoid parkour abuse. You'll need to really think about your parkour instead of spamming fast movements all the time

NEW REGULAR MODES :

- Variant : Create or Join a custom game on a lobby menu. (Some predef variants are available, and the most played of each month become official)
> All Halo/UT/Quake classic modifiers (hp/shield/armor/speed/gravity/ammos/bighead/noabilities/nomods/noparkour/meleeonly/etc) (abilities on kill streak mode)
> Chose the base gametype : Loadout, Gun Game (create the weapon list and earn weapons with kills), Pickup (place weapons on the map, and chose a starter weapon)
> Chose if Team/FFA/Duel/etc

- Ranked : Actual classic loadout+mods PVP with a willymeter (same 30 ranks as mastery, icon showing next to the name in PVP. NOTHING MORE)

- Daily Variant : premade daily variant with roulette reward

OPERATOR PVP MODES :

- Same separation "Variant/Ranked/Lunaro/Races" than warframe based PVP
- Basic gamemode similar to Garry's Mod Murderer gamemode. One operator have the golden eyes and is the murderer with an energy dagger amp, one is awakened and can shot lasers, etc. Survive without knowing who is what/kill other operators if you're the murderer
- Basic deathmatch variant mode, fight with amps and void powers (can balance focus progression in variant options)
- Lunaro Quiditch thing, flying lunaro. First time operator with archwing ? (or miniwings from my other concept) ( 


LANDING CRAFT / ARCHWING / PARKOUR RACES

- Use your gears to race against other tenno. Landing Craft races on wipeout/trackmania/mariokart hybrid circuits with laps. Archwing (with operator ?) in the air going through circle checkpoints
Parkour races with warframe on the floor going through checkpoints

ARCADE :

- Try your best for a high score on those minigames (new "colliseum" zone with arcade games. Happy Zephyr, Wyrmius and more) Some multiplayer minigames too, leaderboards included. (and possible rewards) 

LANDING CRAFT FIGHT

- variant fight for space fight with armed landing crafts
- steve conquest mode

+  / Tournament mode (same mode) / Multiathlon (several modes) / Tennolympic games with several categories each year

 

Edited by Xgomme
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Here is my take on things:

Warframe is most often billed as a PvE game.

It therefore attracts players with a mindset geared toward PvE.

Warframe gear is designed with power progression in mind. The more you play the more powerful the gear that you can obtain.

This means the gear inherently unbalanced, requiring it to be re-balanced for PvP, requiring it to be different for PvP.

 

DE can not encourage the players to play Conclave without some level of overhaul of the system and a "push" to get the players started, since most of the players are playing only for PvE and have no particular interest in the Conclave (PvP).

If DE does attempt this, the players will complain that the game mode they don't like is being "forced" onto them, and that DE has wasted effort that they could have directed at a new frame, a new quest, a new area. It has actually already happened; a few times in fact. The reactions have never been great on the whole. Lunaro, a conclave event or two, even  Rathuum and Index to introduce players to the mechanics...

All these did little to help PvP. Sure, the people who already enjoyed PvP enjoyed the new content, but the people who did not enjoy PvP did not really change their minds.

 

To the PvE player, the best thing that has ever come out of Conclave was Teshin, because Teshin has lore, and Teshin has story. That and the Riv armor.

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I've said it before: Conclave needs someone at DE who's passionate about it and has an idea to restructure the whole thing. It is in desperate need of a single direction—just look at this thread, ranging from "add stamina and it's fine" to "fewer abilities" to "more modes", if you're not interested in looking at the actual Conclave feedback forum that has things like "turn it into a MOBA". And I won't even get into the often negative feedback tied with all of that...

Right now, it isn't popular. It has a bad reputation. Its lack of popularity has created a death spiral because DE isn't going to throw resources at something for minute gain yet the only way it could gain anything from it is if they threw resources at it.

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