Looking for a new layer of gameplay customization.

[FrostDragoon]

This is the continuation of the important part of my previous thread that people sidetracked because they got so caught up with the original framing of it that they missed the core spirit of the suggestion. To that effect, I want to focus on that core element, and that is to discuss a new layer of customization in Warframe. My goal for such a system is that it is non-competitive with mods since they are already oversaturated with too limited space, offer bonuses or trade-offs not currently available through mods, and that allow you to tweak your frames in small ways to suit your style/needs. If a system makes enough sense and is compatible, it would be great to see it expanded to weapons later on, especially non-melee since most players agree that melee already dominate the game in many ways (largely thanks to Maiming Strike).

Here is one proposal, albeit tentative and not the only good option out there.

Spoiler

They can create "armor slots" (not to be confused with cosmetic armor) that go into various parts of the frame: head, hands, feet, and core. These would have some item that provides a bonus described earlier (let's call it an "Armor Orb" as a placeholder) that could either fit in any slot, or have specific slots give certain quality of bonuses. I think types of bonuses should be open and not part locked to specific locations.

Example:

Head/Core could give +10

Hands/Feet give +5

Don't have it set up so that feet only give movement bonuses and hands give something else. Let the Orb decide the bonus type, and the slot decide the bonus power.

Again with the Mesa example, if you slot an Orb that gives base armor value into every slot, you'd have 105 base armor. You wouldn't need to run Steel Fiber to break 100 (and you could even slot something else in one of your hands/feet if you only wanted 100), or you could run Steel Fiber alongside this to multiply this new value.

At this point, it's up to DE which stats can go on Orbs. An example could be that one of them could give 0.4% base crit chance. So take that 0.4% * 5 (hands/feet) for a total of 2% each. 4% for Head/Core. These are only tentative values. The point is that you could open up weapon diversity in a similar way Rivens do by letting frames build around these kinds of things. Crit Chance is something I would caution them to be very careful with and be willing to tweak as needed, if they were to explore it at all, but the possibility that it allows certain weapons to clear specific break-points could turn them from "MR fodder" into "fairly viable." Remember that these are base values, so all your mods that give +xx% scale them up. This is why a Crit Orb would be quite potent, and maybe too much for the scope of this idea.

As for acquisition, I'd suggest having them be a small chance to drop off of any node from particular sectors. For example, any time a mission reward is given, you have a 2% chance (just a tentative number) to get a health Orb. This means when you complete a Capture, every rotation of endless missions, each Spy cache, etc. has a chance to award one. I would even give them a significantly greater chance to pop from hidden caches. This way they strike a balance between getting them passively, but infrequently when you play missions on the star chart, but that you have a way to try to target farm specific ones if you're willing to grind.

Lastly, they should be tradable. People are inevitably going to get more of one type than some other, new players will always need to collect their sets, and it's one more "soft" incentive for those that want to buy plat. It follows similar proven methods behind prime parts, special mods (nightmare, spy mods, corrupted, etc), and miscellaneous other things of similar nature.

 

Another idea, thanks to @MasterBurik,

Spoiler

Just spitballing here, but...

A Helminth-based tuning system for frames:

• Strain modification to tweak the base stats (and resistances) of frames...maybe have a few generalized/unique passives that would replace the one on said frame.
• Establish a semblance of permanence with a gating system for any changes to the frame. Modifying the strain takes time and effort, and so should any adjustments or reversals after the fact. This would be a player's true feeling of min/max.
• Gating the system itself from "newer" players can be an option. As it provides a min/max feel, attaching it to something "endgame" (ha) could be quite appealing. This would also protect newer players from an oversaturation of mechanics.

It may be clouded behind bits and pieces of a number of mechanical designs, but the functionality remains the same as mods, arcanes, focus schools, weapons, and frames: To encourage build diversity.

 

In this thread, I would like to encourage people to bring up their own ideas for what could be another layer of customization, offer constructive criticism (don't tear something down without a solution to fix it), and to find which idea(s) people really like. 

 

I just want to head off one obvious argument that is likely to hit these pages, and that is of "power creep." In the first place, Warframe has had a continual growth of power creep, and inevitably will continue to. This is off-set by new content and further record setting in endless missions. Most players aren't even at the level where power creep even feels like a problem, and many enjoy feeling "over-powered" (which is really that they aren't doing the content which would challenge them). T

Thanks in advance and let's see some cool concepts!

Edited October 31, 2018 by Cleesus

[peterc3]

14 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

In the first place, Warframe has had a continual growth of power creep, and inevitably will continue to.

This proposal is explicitly power creep, though. It's not shifting existing stats, it is adding to all of them.

Mods affect stats. This is just pseudo-mods to go into kinda-slots. No more slots.

14 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

further record setting in endless missions

Not something DE cares about or is designing content around.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Cleesus

[FrostDragoon]

18 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This proposal is explicitly power creep, though. It's not shifting existing stats, it is adding to all of them.

Mods affect stats. This is just pseudo-mods to go into kinda-slots. No more slots.

Most new systems are in some form or another, but it's not as if Warframe is the kind of game where new systems tend to harm it. Quite the opposite. They add more fun stuff for the player to have and do, and DE has their ear to the veteran/end-game crowd on this point anyway. This is why Elite Sanctuary Onslaught and Arbitrations exist. I'm sure we'll see more content aimed at this higher power level come down the pipe as well. That said, this isn't the point of this thread. Surely there is some cool feature you'd like to see added to the game. I find it hard to believe you'd want it to just stay static in perpetuity.

In other words, come on in! The water's fine. 😃

[taiiat]

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Most new systems are in some form or another, but it's not as if Warframe is the kind of game where new systems tend to harm it. Quite the opposite. They add more fun stuff for the player to have and do

all of the numbers related to me getting bigger isn't more stuff for me to do.
the only 'new content' that 'compensates' for Powercreep is stuff that requires getting new stuff to complete. assuming that's even a good thing which it's not clear it is or not.

 

more importantly, is that bigger numbers is not more customization. infact, characteristically over the course of Warframe, bigger numbers has strongly trended towards less customization. more Slots to put things in, but having more of it ultimately reinforcing doing exactly the same one or two things with everything.

Edited October 31, 2018 by taiiat

[FrostDragoon]

This is why I ask that people keep that issue off this thread. It goes nowhere and derails while missing the point. If "bigger numbers" are the issue you see, why not offer a solution that does something different?

[Spectre-8]

The OP is either drunk or he played too much Blizzard games .

[ExcaliburUmbra]

I don’t like the idea of stacking even more hp, armor, crits and ect on top of the current system. Why not instead focus it on stats that aren’t used/avoided like weapon switch speed, enemy visibility (like Rakta Dark Dagger) weapon zoom, lock picking and the like? 

[Voltage]

Arcane Helmets were removed from circulation and the entire Arcane Enhancement system changed specifically to remove all statistical bonuses from cosmetics. While there are some remnants of this time period such as the Manticore Axe Skin, I do not think we should tie statistical bonuses to cosmetic enhancements. The game already has enough power in the form of modding.

Also, please do not spam new threads because you got disagreement in your previous topic. Whether it is the former or latter thread, players will disagree heavily as power creep is something the Forums do not want to see increase (majority), and players want freedom with customization.

[Vox_Preliator]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is why I ask that people keep that issue off this thread. It goes nowhere and derails while missing the point. If "bigger numbers" are the issue you see, why not offer a solution that does something different?

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.  "This house is great, you should totally buy this house, what no ignore the flames billowing out of the second floor those don't matter stay on topic about how this house doesn't have any problems please"  The problem exists, and here it is kind of the most significant part of this whole thing.

Furthermore, in this case, the "solution" to the problem they have issue with is just not implementing this, which is exactly what their post was implying, that this should not be implemented.  They are not in any way required to come up with a replacement suggestion for them to be able to criticize it.

Lastly, just about all off the arguments that weren't specifically about the cosmetic aspect from the last thread still apply, and still haven't been refuted with any significant degree of success.

[Firetempest]

Wouldn't this "extra" layer already be the operators who's tree effects their frame as well. Shouldn't the bonuses of the focus system be the ones that need attention as the system is there, and built. Just neglected. There are new nodes for each tree being designed, but there is really few that are optimal.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

35 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

Wouldn't this "extra" layer already be the operators who's tree effects their frame as well. Shouldn't the bonuses of the focus system be the ones that need attention as the system is there, and built. Just neglected. There are new nodes for each tree being designed, but there is really few that are optimal.

This ^  and if OP wants that extra layer why not suggest something along the lines of maybe "focus schools" for pets/companions/sentinels. Similar to how mod sets work, could have focus schools that can compliment/synergies with operator schools. 

Mediocre stats on armor just sounds icky. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Tsardova]

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

This is why I ask that people keep that issue off this thread. It goes nowhere and derails while missing the point. If "bigger numbers" are the issue you see, why not offer a solution that does something different?

...... Dude... that's feigning ignorance through and through.

 

Your idea inherently poses powercreep issue no matter how much you try to bend logic. Telling people off to "make a solution" for the flaws in the idea that you propose is just plain ignorant, lazy, and worst of all entitled as all  hell. You want the idea to be implemented? YOU think of a solution to the inherent flaw that it brings, not toss it to those who point it out for you.

 

2 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.  "This house is great, you should totally buy this house, what no ignore the flames billowing out of the second floor those don't matter stay on topic about how this house doesn't have any problems please"  The problem exists, and here it is kind of the most significant part of this whole thing.

Furthermore, in this case, the "solution" to the problem they have issue with is just not implementing this, which is exactly what their post was implying, that this should not be implemented.  They are not in any way required to come up with a replacement suggestion for them to be able to criticize it.

Lastly, just about all off the arguments that weren't specifically about the cosmetic aspect from the last thread still apply, and still haven't been refuted with any significant degree of success.

^^^^ this person, listen to him/her.....

 

People have placed valid points in their disagreement with yours in the previous thread and all you did was go on an incessant condescending rambling to the point a mod had to step in. It's not censorship like you seem to think it is... It's simply the fact that your idea holds 0 substance, it has been done before albeit in a lesser degree and DE themselves ditched the concept as a whole and the most of the community has acknowledged its shortcoming being more trouble than its worth of DE reconsidering it.

Spawning new threads where you yourself have not even progressed in making a valid counterargument is just unnecessary spam instead of a discussion. 

 

[trst]

As long as our most "end-game" modes and missions can be casually trivialized to the point that your time in a mission is dictated by boredom and not power limitations we have no need for more system that grant power on top of what we have.

As fun and interesting as it might be to have more systems to work with and customize it'll simply drain any remaining challenge. Or even worse: push players to the boredom point even faster.

 

We have no outlet for our current level of power beyond self-imposed challenges (endurance runs are self-imposed). As long as that outlet is not provided we'll continue in a trend where end-game and "veteran" players will continue to stop playing between content updates.

[WindigoTG]

 

Yeah, at this point I'm totally going to update it with each new version of this topic.

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, trst said:

As long as our most "end-game" modes and missions can be casually trivialized to the point that your time in a mission is dictated by boredom and not power limitations we have no need for more system that grant power on top of what we have.

As fun and interesting as it might be to have more systems to work with and customize it'll simply drain any remaining challenge. Or even worse: push players to the boredom point even faster.

 

We have no outlet for our current level of power beyond self-imposed challenges (endurance runs are self-imposed). As long as that outlet is not provided we'll continue in a trend where end-game and "veteran" players will continue to stop playing between content updates.

I don't really agree, because the power level you're talking about isn't precisely related to stats themselves. It's largely just cheese mechanics and abusing stuff with infinite scaling (or close to it). That said, I was clear in the OP that the proposal is tentative. I want people to explore some options to add more customization and hopefully build diversity to the game. Not because it's not there at all, there's a fair bit, but because it's the kind of thing where more of it makes the game more interesting. If you would rather focus on stuff that changes the mechanics of abilities or how certain weapons behave, for example, I'm happy to explore that with you. The reason I like the numbers stuff is because I don't play with a lot of that cheesing stuff and prefer the gameplay where the numbers still matter (which happens to be 95% of the usable content across frames, weapons, arcanes, etc). I don't see it having a noticeable impact on the infinite cheese gameplay one way or another.

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Wouldn't this "extra" layer already be the operators who's tree effects their frame as well. Shouldn't the bonuses of the focus system be the ones that need attention as the system is there, and built. Just neglected. There are new nodes for each tree being designed, but there is really few that are optimal.

I think the focus system could potentially be leveraged for something along these lines, but it has many inherent flaws and grind gating that make it less ideal for it. It isn't merely that focus was neglected. They reworked it and it's still awful (worse in most ways, imo). I don't foresee DE remaking it again with the design principles/ideas they were going for with that particular system and able to accomplish anything meaningful with it. They would either need to start from a brand new system (which seems the cleaner/easier method) in which to try these ideas or change their attitudes toward the focus system and do yet another rework (which I don't see happening).

[LarryYourWaiter]

Have a look at this game through fresh eyes for a moment.  Try and put yourself in the shoes of a new player:  

the game is already monumentally complicated.  There is so much stuff to learn and to know and there is no tutorial for almost all of it.  I have no doubt that a large percentage of new players quit due to be intimidated with the wall of information to learn and soooooo much to do to “catch up.” Adding a whole extra layer is going to up that percentage of people who just leave.  That’s not healthy for the game.

[UrielColtan]

I don't see how necessary any of this is, it seems you just want a big number through more number sliding modifications. How droll and dreary.

Where is the performance my boy, where is the action? I can appreciate more modding options but it has to be for a whole other introduced and integrated gameplay and such, like a mode/state where your operator has the option to transference into fighting alongside and controlling your Warframe like a Jojo Stand or something. Less like

Spoiler

Excal Umbra

and more like the old Jojo Capcom arcade fighter, All Star Battle or Eyes of Heaven, where you have control over what the frame does even outside of it, and the frame can even have modified variances of its main abilities or completely different abilities that follow a similar theme. The real "warrior Tenno".  Have optional customization behind something new like that, then maybe we could talk. Along with new challenges in the game, of course. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by UrielColtan

[dEjAvU5566]

Is armor slot visible?

If not then it's just more mod slots.

If it is visible, then such example exists before, and it sucks ( arcane helmet), most players wants their attribute separate from their looks.

Dont know why OP so insist of spamming for the same idea which is denied by players and DE before.

[Veridian]

The idea itself is not bad, it's basically like gems in diablo, but there's just no place for it in Warframe. It's either power creep pure and simple, or if its a stat exchange like the arcane helmets there wouldn't be that much "customization" since 90% of the frames will have a meta stat change.

At the end of the day, stat customization will either be useless or mandatory and will not truly be "customization".

At the end of the day pumping higher numbers may add some more play time, because it will have to be earned, but it offers nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

One more thing, in a game in which there are mods that 165% crit chance or arcanes that add 120% melee damage, increases of 1-2% would serve next to no purpose. This doesn't add anything exciting, it will be that "meh" thing you have to do so you can feel like you've completed your build.

There's already a great deal of customization in loadouts: frames, weapons, operators, pets. If you are looking for customization in the gameplay, add the option for random modifiers to missions that change every 30 seconds, melee range increase +500%, turn into Kuaka for 30 sec, weapon heals allies, weapon instagibs allies...etc. Add a scale to select the starting level of endless missions, allow sentinels to equip normal weapons, add mods that actively effect the gameplay experience, E.G. receive a buff - heal for 10% of total hp, gain energy - reduce enemy armor. These are just some randomly thought out ideas as an example, not a request for implementation, but this will be gameplay customization, stat change is not.

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ver1dian

[FlusteredFerret]

36 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

The idea itself is not bad, it's basically like gems in diablo, but there's just no place for it in Warframe. It's either power creep pure and simple, or if its a stat exchange like the arcane helmets there wouldn't be that much "customization" since 90% of the frames will have a meta stat change.

At the end of the day, stat customization will either be useless or mandatory and will not truly be "customization".

At the end of the day pumping higher numbers may add some more play time, because it will have to be earned, but it offers nothing in terms of actual gameplay.

One more thing, in a game in which there are mods that 165% crit chance or arcanes that add 120% melee damage, increases of 1-2% would serve next to no purpose. This doesn't add anything exciting, it will be that "meh" thing you have to do so you can feel like you've completed your build.

There's already a great deal of customization in loadouts: frames, weapons, operators, pets. If you are looking for customization in the gameplay, add the option for random modifiers to missions that change every 30 seconds, melee range increase +500%, turn into Kuaka for 30 sec, weapon heals allies, weapon instagibs allies...etc. Add a scale to select the starting level of endless missions, allow sentinels to equip normal weapons, add mods that actively effect the gameplay experience, E.G. receive a buff - heal for 10% of total hp, gain energy - reduce enemy armor. These are just some randomly thought out ideas as an example, not a request for implementation, but this will be gameplay customization, stat change is not.

 

 

 

Pretty much this.

Veterans already complain that there is no challenge left in the game, because they've managed to create OP builds. Enabling them to create even more powerful ones only exacerbates the situation. 

Plus it just adds more complexity to a game that can be mind-boggling to new(er) players. Warframe already has a ridiculous amount of mod-ability and customisation built into it.

The main thing this game seems to suffer from is lack of challenging endgame content (about which numerous threads have already been made).

 

All that said, I have to say Master Burik's idea about being able to modify the Helminth virus is an intriguing idea, as this is a core part of the game's lore. Perhaps missions where Ballas rewards us with different variations / strains of the virus (or the means to change it) could work? To prevent / limit power creep, there would be trade-off, similar to Riven mods. While some frame stats would be buffed, other would be nerfed. Though how this would be incorporated into the frame modding process, I have no idea.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[Erytroxylin]

So basically power creep.

They'd have to be balanced out by severe negatives. In your example that adds flat armor, I'd add a negative that reduces movement speed, bullet jumping, sliding and rolling. 

[Tsukinoki]

12 hours ago, OmegaZero633 said:

I don’t like the idea of stacking even more hp, armor, crits and ect on top of the current system. Why not instead focus it on stats that aren’t used/avoided like weapon switch speed, enemy visibility (like Rakta Dark Dagger) weapon zoom, lock picking and the like? 

If the OP honestly wanted customization this would have been what he suggested.
Stuff that doesn't just add to numerical stats but instead add more options.

Just slapping on pure numerical stats like OP suggests wouldn't lead to any customization because there would be one set that does unarguably the best in every situation and everyone would just use that one set and nothing else, leading everyone to being the same.

If instead the effects weren't numeric stats but small things such as "Enemy sight range reduced" or "Lowered enemy accuracy while parkouring" (an increase to whats already there) or "Increased accuracy while moving and shooting" vs "Increased accuracy while standing still and shooting" things like that, small gimmicky things that can be useful, or fun, depending on how you play then you could actually argue that such a system would add customization because then there wouldn't be one best set to rule all others.
Do stuff that mods don't already do.  Don't just add more numerical stats to frames.  Encourage different play styles without just being "Oh you get +45 armor or +45 health...." which don't encourage anything really and is just more numbers when more numbers is not needed in any way, shape, or form.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tsukinoki

[FrostDragoon]

Quote

Just slapping on pure numerical stats like OP suggests wouldn't lead to any customization because there would be one set that does unarguably the best in every situation and everyone would just use that one set and nothing else, leading everyone to being the same.

I've seen this argument countless times across many games, and I completely disagree. My guess is that most of the people who make it haven't played the Armored Core games, so they aren't so in tune with the actual gameplay differences those numbers make. The other half of this is simply that people would chase the meta. I don't see that as a problem with the game, but with individual player mentality. There are plenty of people who don't do this, so it is in fact more customization for those players. This isn't even taking into consideration that the meta builds people like to copy are usually just one decently effective way of playing that a content creator posted, so others simply take it as gospel. It's rarely as min/maxed in absolute terms as people like to think.

Quote

One more thing, in a game in which there are mods that 165% crit chance or arcanes that add 120% melee damage, increases of 1-2% would serve next to no purpose. This doesn't add anything exciting, it will be that "meh" thing you have to do so you can feel like you've completed your build.

It's 1-2% base crit, so your 120% scaling mod increases that value further. Some weapons at the moment can get to around 95-97% crit, but can't feasibly break that 100% mark as things are right now. That's something which this could address. It's not a really big deal in most cases, so it's really just having the freedom to make those fine-tune tweaks.

 

As for the "power creep" stuff, please stay on topic. You can talk endlessly about that issue, but it accomplishes nothing and isn't the topic of this thread. Hell, many people don't even consider it a real problem, but a perceptual one (like the meta). There's no way you can make productive discussion out of that topic.

[5H4DE]

The definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

Tenno please, stop with this, no matter how much you deny it, all you want is extra mod slots that won't eat up capacity. It's not happening, move on.

Edited November 1, 2018 by TheRealShade