If you play with a friend who's connected on the same router, is there no lag like in Solo?

[Tronitus]

What the title says.

 

Has anyone done this and does it actually work? I play with a friends who live in the same area as me but due to internet issues, the players other than the host lag when we play together. It's not fun at all.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Tronitus

[UseNet]

41 minutes ago, Tronitus said:

What the title says.

 

Has anyone done this and does it actually work? I play with a friends who live in the same area as me but due to internet issues, the players other than the host lag when we play together. It's not fun at all.

 

There is still an amount of lag because the connection has to bounce from router > DE server > back to router.

[Ragingwasabi]

4 minutes ago, UseNet said:

There is still an amount of lag because the connection has to bounce from router > DE server > back to router.

isnt warframe peer to peer?

[Miser_able]

I've played with a friend at his house before, with just the two of us. We've both got good computers so there wasn't any chance of system lag. And from what I could tell, if there was lag it wasn't noticeable. 

[KotoKuraken]

11 minutes ago, Ragingwasabi said:

isnt warframe peer to peer?

yes, Warframe is peer to peer. However, there are a few variables affecting the network.

First your connection still travels from your computer, to the router, to your ISP, through a bunch of other nets until it arrives at DE's ISP, then their router, then their servers, and then it makes a trip back to your computer. This is because the computers still need to refer to DE to get general information needed to run the game online.

The same is done separately for a friend, even if they are on the same network.

On top of that, because they are on the same network, they are also drawing resources from the same source, which means whatever speed they have going through that router is actually split between both computers.

So essentially, simply because two players are on the same network doesn't mean there is any less chance for there to be lag if the connection between their network and DE's network is not stable.

[krc473]

1 hour ago, Tronitus said:

Has anyone done this and does it actually work?

It works fine. There can be lag as there is still a connection - you are not playing via LAN. I have found it to work well (ping of around 30). It is fairly similar to playing solo, except with a friend.

Just now, KotoKuraken said:

On top of that, because they are on the same network, they are also drawing resources from the same source, which means whatever speed they have going through that router is actually split between both computers.

Most routers are capable of having multiple devices connected and running at the full speed on all of them. It is not split between the devices unless you have a terrible router. Mine will run four PC's at their max speeds without issue. So just two would be no problem.

Edited November 1, 2018 by krc473

[KotoKuraken]

11 minutes ago, krc473 said:

It works fine. There can be lag as there is still a connection - you are not playing via LAN. I have found it to work well (ping of around 30). It is fairly similar to playing solo, except with a friend.

Most routers are capable of having multiple devices connected and running at the full speed on all of them. It is not split between the devices unless you have a terrible router. Mine will run four PC's at their max speeds without issue. So just two would be no problem.

Actually no, that's not how it works. Let's say you have 1Gbps Wifi available for your router, that's the service you pay for. If you have 4 devices, each of them can only reach 250Mbps, because routers split speeds between all actively connected devices, including laptops, cellphones, gaming consoles, printers, etc.

That's not a bad router, that's just how routers physically work.

Signed,

Someone who works in Network Management

Edited November 1, 2018 by KotoKuraken
Kittens and Tentacles

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, KotoKuraken said:

Actually no, that's not how it works. Let's say you have 1Gbps Wifi available for your router, that's the service you pay for. If you have 4 devices, each of them can only reach 250Mbps, because routers split speeds between all actively connected devices, including laptops, cellphones, gaming consoles, printers, etc.

That's not a bad router, that's just how routers physically work.

But this is almost never an issue in a home environment, even if you're having a group of friends over running their own laptops. Unless someone has extremely high traffic like torrenting megabytes of uploads and downloads, this isn't really something you pay much consideration to.

[taiiat]

it'll be basically perfect for the most part, yes. there's still some Latency because it's not the actual same computer, but it should 5ms or lower generally. should be 10ms at the worst, if your home Network is quite convoluted.

37 minutes ago, UseNet said:

There is still an amount of lag because the connection has to bounce from router > DE server > back to router.

 

15 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

First your connection still travels from your computer, to the router, to your ISP, through a bunch of other nets until it arrives at DE's ISP, then their router, then their servers, and then it makes a trip back to your computer. This is because the computers still need to refer to DE to get general information needed to run the game online.

actual Warframe game Sessions are P2P.... the only part of the game that talks to Digital Extremes is logging in, Contacts List, updating Account Information(sending your Mission Stats to your Account), Et Cetera. or when you are on Relays/Dojos, which are centrally Hosted.
when playing in a Session, everything related to that game Session is talking directly to that Host.

i would implore those looking at Networking from far away to not take shots in the dark without knowing how Warframe works.

[KotoKuraken]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it'll be basically perfect for the most part, yes. there's still some Latency because it's not the actual same computer, but it should 5ms or lower generally. should be 10ms at the worst, if your home Network is quite convoluted.

 

actual Warframe game Sessions are P2P.... the only part of the game that talks to Digital Extremes is logging in, Contacts List, updating Account Information(sending your Mission Stats to your Account), Et Cetera. or when you are on Relays/Dojos, which are centrally Hosted.
when playing in a Session, everything related to that game Session is talking directly to that Host.

i would implore those looking at Networking from far away to not take shots in the dark without knowing how Warframe works.

Clients to the host in a game session are still sending their packets/requests to the host, which sends it to DE's servers, and then returns it back to clients. If the host loses connection to DE's servers, connection is lost during the session and you get a host migration, or you get the whole squad losing connection to the multiplayer servers. You can't run a squad that has lost connection to DE's servers, even if you still have connection to the clients in your squad.

9 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

But this is almost never an issue in a home environment, even if you're having a group of friends over running their own laptops. Unless someone has extremely high traffic like torrenting megabytes of uploads and downloads, this isn't really something you pay much consideration to.

Having a lot of devices all using your router at the same time can still be a problem. If it's just a couple friends playing the game, sure it won't have much effect. But if there's a bunch of people all watching Netflix/Youtube and a couple other people playing Warframe, the ping will go up. Probably not considerably, but that wasn't the point. The point was whether or not it would differ much from being solo, and yes it can differ quite a lot from solo due to the rise in ping because of a congested network.

[taiiat]

4 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

Clients to the host in a game session are still sending their packets/requests to the host, which sends it to DE's servers, and then returns it back to clients.

this is only Keep Alive information related to Contacts, Et Cetera.
it doesn't have an impact on the Game Session unless Digital Extremes is just totally down. even if the Keep Alive is very behind it doesn't have an impact, the windows for that data are very flexible.

[RX-3DR]

7 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

Having a lot of devices all using your router at the same time can still be a problem. If it's just a couple friends playing the game, sure it won't have much effect. But if there's a bunch of people all watching Netflix/Youtube and a couple other people playing Warframe, the ping will go up. Probably not considerably, but that wasn't the point. The point was whether or not it would differ much from being solo, and yes it can differ quite a lot from solo due to the rise in ping because of a congested network.

That's the thing though, high usage and traffic is actually the problem rather than just having multiple devices connected. Even then, you would usually need to hit an ungodly amount of traffic before it starts bottlenecking at an area. A good example for this case is cybercafes aren't in complete ruin with some 50 devices connected on the same network unless there are some significant underlying issues with the infrastructure or hardware.

You're putting forward an extremely unlikely case while bouncing around with different points. Unless he falls into that extremely small group with abnormally poor in-home network infrastructure, there would be little to no impact at all.

[Vanille]

30 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

Actually no, that's not how it works. Let's say you have 1Gbps Wifi available for your router, that's the service you pay for. If you have 4 devices, each of them can only reach 250Mbps, because routers split speeds between all actively connected devices, including laptops, cellphones, gaming consoles, printers, etc.

That's not a bad router, that's just how routers physically work.

Signed,

Someone who works in Network Management

Well that's weird. I have a 100mb connection, tested it with my cousin using his laptop and phone watching youtube and stuff and then I speedtested it, and I'm still getting 100mb myself. I'm not an expert in network management though, just my curiosity.

[KotoKuraken]

1 minute ago, Flandyrll said:

That's the thing though, high usage and traffic is actually the problem rather than just having multiple devices connected. Even then, you would usually need to hit an ungodly amount of traffic before it starts bottlenecking at an area. A good example for this case is cybercafes aren't in complete ruin with some 50 devices connected on the same network unless there are some significant underlying issues with the infrastructure or hardware.

You're putting forward an extremely unlikely case while bouncing around with different points. Unless he falls into that extremely small group with abnormally poor in-home network infrastructure, there would be little to no impact at all.

It's not really an unlikely case. Take for example having multiple roommates, or having a family on a home network, or any kind of situation where like 4 or 5 people are on the network, each with a laptop, phone, and gaming console. Having all of those people online at the same time bogs down the network very easily unless you happen to have at least some of them separated from the Wifi by plugging into the Ethernet ports

1 minute ago, Kiwinille said:

Well that's weird. I have a 100mb connection, tested it with my cousin using his laptop and phone watching youtube and stuff and then I speedtested it, and I'm still getting 100mb myself. I'm not an expert in network management though, just my curiosity.

100Mbps connection on your computer, or paying for 100Mbps service through your router? It's your router's highest possible speed that is split when there are multiple devices on the network. If you've got 4 devices all with an active lease from your router, the speed is capped for each device by what it splits

[Vanille]

Just now, KotoKuraken said:

100Mbps connection on your computer, or paying for 100Mbps service through your router? It's your router's highest possible speed that is split when there are multiple devices on the network. If you've got 4 devices all with an active lease from your router, the speed is capped for each device by what it splits

Paying 100mb service and then testing it and still getting 100mb result lol.

[KotoKuraken]

6 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

Paying 100mb service and then testing it and still getting 100mb result lol.

Hmm, you might be higher up in the pipe than your neighbors. Sometimes when people are closer to their ISP, they get a higher speed than what they paid for unintentionally. ISPs have to push all the speed they need for everyone down the line (since it's one big data cable that splits off as it travels further outwards), and everyone in that chain is supposed to only take the share they paid for. I'm not 100% if that's the case for you, but that's usually how that happens

For example, if the ISP has to deliver service to your house, and then to a company that's later on in the chain of that line, they have to push your speed, their speed, and enough extra speed to compensate for loss. As a result, your house might get more than it should have. Again, not 100% sure, but that's a possibility

Edited November 1, 2018 by KotoKuraken

[Vanille]

12 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

Hmm, you might be higher up in the pipe than your neighbors. Sometimes when people are closer to their ISP, they get a higher speed than what they paid for unintentionally. They have to push all the speed they need for everyone down the line, and everyone in that chain is supposed to only take the share they paid for. I'm not 100% if that's the case for you, but that's usually how that happens

ISP is in the city next to mine (roughly 145km / 90 miles). I just tested it again with my cousin using youtube on both his laptop and his phone and still got this, guess I can consider myself lucky, and dunno if it has something to do but I gotta add that it's fiber optic connection.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Kiwinille

[RX-3DR]

27 minutes ago, KotoKuraken said:

Hmm, you might be higher up in the pipe than your neighbors. Sometimes when people are closer to their ISP, they get a higher speed than what they paid for unintentionally. ISPs have to push all the speed they need for everyone down the line (since it's one big data cable that splits off as it travels further outwards), and everyone in that chain is supposed to only take the share they paid for. I'm not 100% if that's the case for you, but that's usually how that happens

For example, if the ISP has to deliver service to your house, and then to a company that's later on in the chain of that line, they have to push your speed, their speed, and enough extra speed to compensate for loss. As a result, your house might get more than it should have. Again, not 100% sure, but that's a possibility

You've missed the point. He's saying that traffic from other devices have little to no effect on his connection. This is almost always the case unless you have a ridiculously high traffic running through an old router. With any modern router, it's very unlikely that multiple devices being connected with a few of them operating will cause problems enough to affect your connection.

Do remember, we are talking about latency. Warframe doesn't require a large throughput to operate which is why you would only see a problem when connecting locally if there is some massive problem with your local network.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Flandyrll

[KotoKuraken]

4 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

You've missed the point. He's saying that traffic from other devices have little to no effect on his connection. This is almost always the case unless you have a ridiculously high traffic running through an old router. With any modern router, it's very unlikely that multiple devices being connected with a few of them operating will cause problems enough to affect your connection.

Do remember, we are talking about latency. Warframe doesn't require a large throughput to operate which is why you would only see a problem when connecting locally if there is some massive problem with your local network.

You're right. I guess one person having better than average connection is enough evidence to overthrow several years studying networking and physically working in that field. The fact still remains that whatever speed your Wifi physically pushes out, that speed is divided among all your devices. However, the speed his router is pushing out is definitely higher than what he's paying for.

As far as what Warframe requires, yea I agree with you on that one. It doesn't require much, considering I was able to run it on phone data by tethering it for a month on a 2GB data plan. My point was that you can still receive a bump in ping noticeably higher than in solo. My housemate and I are on the same network and get around 30 ping when we're at the house by ourselves, but when everyone's home we can see up to 300 ping

[krc473]

2 hours ago, KotoKuraken said:

Actually no, that's not how it works. Let's say you have 1Gbps Wifi available for your router, that's the service you pay for. If you have 4 devices, each of them can only reach 250Mbps, because routers split speeds between all actively connected devices, including laptops, cellphones, gaming consoles, printers, etc.

Okay, where I live that is not how it works at all. It functions how I described above for my connection. Perhaps I just get a higher line speed than the router output, I am not sure. It [ISP plan] gives the "expected device speed" rather than line speed.

Edited November 1, 2018 by krc473

[KotoKuraken]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

Okay, where I live that is not how it works at all. It functions how I described above for my connection. Perhaps I just get a higher line speed than the router output, I am not sure. It [ISP plan] gives the "expected device speed" rather than line speed.

okay, I think that makes a lot more sense for both you and the other guy now that you've said that. In my area, speed is sold by how much your entire network will get, and you have to guess the speed for the rest of your devices from there.

However, with your speed being sold "per device" or by "expected device speed", your router's speed has already been calculated at what it'll split to and is sold as such. AT&T in my area sells a 100 Mbps plan for $50, and that's a plan for the whole network instead of what's expected per device. Only time I'll actually ever hit that speed is when I'm the only one in the house.

[More-L]

For the router thing. The service you pay for and your router's capability are two completely separate things, don't confuse them. My router doesn't really give priority to any device except the ones downloading files so doing a speed tests on any one at a time will always show max speed, test every device at the same time and then see the speed you get. But rarely is everyone on a network downloading files for long periods of time.

As for how Warframe hosting works, DE does occasionally do a server check to a host (you can see this by continuing a mission in solo after internet is turned off/un-plugged unless it changed recently) but clients do not check in with DE in any impacting way aside from after mission start and at mission end (except for arbitrations maybe.) Connecting via the same router will work in the exact same way as being next door to each other, the delay will depend mostly on distance.