Arbitrations: who had this horrible idea?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if you want Polymer, you'd be way better off just running Ophelia or any other good Uranus node. no sense in risking it all on Arbitration mode if you don't think you an handle it. and yes, you can be quite easily oneshot in arbitrations. you said you run Saryn, don't you have the Regen Molt Augment? it gives a ridiculous amount of survivability to her. 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I prefer this to just scouring levels for sculptures...got build those Transformer statues in my dojo...  

[Kyronz]

it is a snoozefest, i doubt anyone but the hard core fan bois think DE put any thought or time into this new mode.   Let's hope they more motivated on Fortuna!

Edited November 3, 2018 by Kyronz

[Melbourne404]

23 hours ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

This mode was selled as an elite super mode where you will get punished if you are not good. Can't really see a sense if you can keep the highest rewards even if you die and not a bunch of materials. After the loot screen i was expecting to see nothing at all.

This is my opinion, maybe a bit strange yeah but for me had more sense to keep the materials and not the rotation rewards (cause elite mode for elite players where git good or nothing).

Free to think otherway.

Pretty sure your original post was more "why can't I keep the loot?" and less "why can I keep the rotation rewards?" 

On 2018-11-02 at 11:46 PM, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

Ok so i was in a defense arbitration in solo mode. At wave 29 something killed me (first time in 10 arbitrations till now), extraction and surprise: all the loot (like polymers) was gone, only the rotation drops was here.

So are you telling me that if i die i can't get the loot? Seriously why?

Yeah, you were definitely more focused on what you didn't get than what you did get.

Besides, would you be saying git gud if someone died and lost the rewards after 3 hours of arbitration? Because, reminder, these are endless missions. Not dying doesn't mean you're good, it just means you fled before the enemies got too tough.

Anyways, I'm fine with the rotation rewards being kept, because it allows us to fight to the death instead of, you know, everyone running off to extraction 30 minutes in. I have enough people wanting to extract 20 minutes into arbitration survival as it is (honestly I don't get why they do that), so the last thing I need is a system that rewards running away and punishes staying and fighting. Losing everything wouldn't reward getting good, it would reward cowardice.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

3 hours ago, Melbourne404 said:

Pretty sure your original post was more "why can't I keep the loot?" and less "why can I keep the rotation rewards?" 

Yeah, you were definitely more focused on what you didn't get than what you did get.

Besides, would you be saying git gud if someone died and lost the rewards after 3 hours of arbitration? Because, reminder, these are endless missions. Not dying doesn't mean you're good, it just means you fled before the enemies got too tough.

Anyways, I'm fine with the rotation rewards being kept, because it allows us to fight to the death instead of, you know, everyone running off to extraction 30 minutes in. I have enough people wanting to extract 20 minutes into arbitration survival as it is (honestly I don't get why they do that), so the last thing I need is a system that rewards running away and punishes staying and fighting. Losing everything wouldn't reward getting good, it would reward cowardice.

My original post point was "i can keep the rotation rewards and not the materials?", i don't wrote about rotations reward in the open post because i opened it in the verge of a "wtf" moment but i wrote about them in the other posts so if you have read them i don't see why are you remarking something that is pretty clear.

About the "arbitrations are good like this bla bla bla" i'm pretty bored to say the same thing again and again, my opinion is already explained so who want to undertsand it see my previous posts.

Edited November 3, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Be glad you got the rotation rewards. Every other game mode would’ve taken those too.

[Melbourne404]

8 hours ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

My original post point was "i can keep the rotation rewards and not the materials?", i don't wrote about rotations reward in the open post because i opened it in the verge of a "wtf" moment but i wrote about them in the other posts so if you have read them i don't see why are you remarking something that is pretty clear.

About the "arbitrations are good like this bla bla bla" i'm pretty bored to say the same thing again and again, my opinion is already explained so who want to undertsand it see my previous posts.

Okay, I was low-key accusing you of moving the goalposts, but whatever, never mind that.

Oh, I saw your previous posts. I wasn't just saying out of the blue that arbitrations are good, I was tackling your point that elite alerts should punish death because unskilled players should git gud. I was explaining why I consider your reasoning in them flawed. So it won't do any good to just read it again, would it?

Here's a tldr version: If you don't die in arbitrations, which are all endless missions, it doesn't necessarily mean you're good, it just means you ran off before the enemies got too tough. Removing rotation rewards upon death would reward cowards who flee when the going gets tough.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Melbourne404

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

1 hour ago, Melbourne404 said:

Okay, I was low-key accusing you of moving the goalposts, but whatever, never mind that.

Oh, I saw your previous posts. I wasn't just saying out of the blue that arbitrations are good, I was tackling your point that elite alerts should punish death because unskilled players should git gud. I was explaining why I consider your reasoning in them was flawed. So it won't do any good to just read it again, would it?

Here's a tldr version: If you don't die in arbitrations, which are all endless missions, it doesn't necessarily mean you're good, it just means you ran off before the enemies got too tough. Removing rotation rewards upon death would reward cowards who flee when the going gets tough.

I don't really want arbitrations to punish you and don't give rotation rewards on death, i was just asking why i can keep the rotation rewards (that theoretically are what all players goes for when do arbitrations) and not the materials (something that if you get it or not is pretty the same because a veteran has already enough of them or can farm them easily so why not give them too, they are more important than rotation rewards?).

Like i said in a post i'm imagining this scene after a fail: a guy of arbiters is waiting for you at the arbitration room exit when he tells you "hey you died in our super elite mode made for veterans so you'll get punished: you can keep rotation rewards but put here all the nano spores you have!". Seems a pretty no sense situation for me. I was expecting to see nothing at all, because well if you die can't really claim something do you? 😁

ps. Obviously a game mode like that would be very stressful and played by less players.

Edited November 4, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Melbourne404]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

I don't really want arbitrations to punish you and don't give rotation rewards on death, i was just asking why i can keep the rotation rewards (that theoretically are what all players goes for when do arbitrations) and not the materials (something that if you get it or not is pretty the same because a veteran has already enough of them or can farm them easily so why not give them too).

Like i said in a post i'm imagining this scene after a fail: a guy of arbiters is waiting for you at the arbitration room exit when he tells you "hey you died in our super elite mode made for veterans so you'll get punished: you can keep rotation rewards but put here all the nano spores you have!". Seems a pretty no sense situation for me. I was expecting to see nothing at all, because well if you die can't really claim something do you? 😁

Obviously a game mode like that would be very stressful and played by less players but wasn't raids like this?

Well, people were complaining about how everyone usually extracts once they get the first rotation C in endless missions. Arbitrations were clearly designed to motivate people to not do that, what with the rotations being ABCCCC... and letting you keep rewards if you die.  Without that, plenty of people will still play it, but there will be a tremendous increase in people wanting to extract after 30 minutes instead of challenging themselves to fight even tougher enemies. With the system as it is, I can tell people to die if they want to leave, instead of having to contend with "But it's risky to stay, I don't want to lose everything".

As for the logic behind it, it doesn't make any more sense than Lotus apparently going "You failed, so put back all those plastids, even though it may help our cause and dumping them is extremely unpragmatic", or the fact that you lose codex and somachord entries after you have already scanned them. But we just deal with it, don't we?

Personally, I think of it as we died, so we didn't manage to bring anything we got in the mission with us, and the Arbiters just gave us the rewards after we made it back out.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

58 minutes ago, Melbourne404 said:

Well, people were complaining about how everyone usually extracts once they get the first rotation C in endless missions. Arbitrations were clearly designed to motivate people to not do that, what with the rotations being ABCCCC... and letting you keep rewards if you die.  Without that, plenty of people will still play it, but there will be a tremendous increase in people wanting to extract after 30 minutes instead of challenging themselves to fight even tougher enemies. With the system as it is, I can tell people to die if they want to leave, instead of having to contend with "But it's risky to stay, I don't want to lose everything".

As for the logic behind it, it doesn't make any more sense than Lotus apparently going "You failed, so put back all those plastids, even though it may help our cause and dumping them is extremely unpragmatic", or the fact that you lose codex and somachord entries after you have already scanned them. But we just deal with it, don't we?

Personally, I think of it as we died, so we didn't manage to bring anything we got in the mission with us, and the Arbiters just gave us the rewards after we made it back out.

Don't know the pc situation but until now any of my public runs ended before even reach the second C rotation cause someone died in the first minutes (record is a mr18 guy that started an interception died after... 2 sec?) and others get scared to continue, or if no one dies when enemies starts to be around the sortie 3 level they decide to extract because too hard for them and not worth the pain. If the host leaves you're pretty fuked anyway because host migration bug so to take no risk you have extract too and bye C rotations. The recruitment section can't help much, tried many times to recruit but never get a full team that want to do an endurance and enjoy the infinite C rotations. You can't run solo surv or excavation because the spawn is very low and surv is the mode that i see 70% of the time. Mods drops even in AB rotations for a 2.5% chance vs a 3.5% chance of C rotations, not this much difference (all the mods i got were from AB rotations).

Let's say you get all the mods and just want to farm endo, well do more than 30 minutes doesn't really worth it anyway because the max endo reward is 2000 and there is the risk of getting a statue that needs a lot of stars or can't sell it for a good amount of endo. If you know what to do you can farm the arena on sedna and get 400/600 endo every run, takes 3-4 min and no need stars.

About logic, lets say we die: the loot collected is on the frame, if our frame die we have to get him back (like in the war within) because we can't teleport him on the liset right? So the only explanation about the missing loot can be only one: someone stoles that loot from the frame itself. In arbitration the culprit clearly is arbiters operator that waits at the arbitration room exit i wrote about so my suggestion is to dismiss that guy so we can keep the loot 😄

Edited November 4, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Melbourne404]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

Don't know the pc situation but until now any of my public runs ended before even reach the second C rotation cause someone died in the first minutes and others get scared to continue, or if no one dies when enemies starts to be around the sortie 3 level they decide to extract because too hard for them and not worth the pain. If the host leaves you're pretty fuked anyway because host migration bug so to take no risk you have extract too and bye C rotations. The recruitment section can't help much, tried many times to recruit but never get a full team that want to do an endurance and enjoy the infinite C rotations. You can't run solo surv or excavation because the spawn is very low and surv is the mode that i see 70% of the time. Mods drops even in AB rotations for a 2.5% chance vs a 3.5% chance of C rotations, not this much difference (all the mods i got were from AB rotations).

Let's say you get all the mods and just want to farm endo, well do more than 30 minutes doesn't really worth it anyway because the max endo reward is 2000 and there is the risk of getting a statue that needs a lot of stars or can't sell it for a good amount of endo. If you know what to do you can farm the arena on sedna and get 400/600 endo every run, takes 3-4 min and no need stars.

About logic, lets say we die: the loot collected is on the frame, if our frame die we have to get him back (like in the war within) because we can't teleport him on the liset right? So the only explanation about the missing loot can be only one: someone stoles that loot from the frame itself. In arbitration the culprit clearly is arbiters operator that waits at the arbitration room exit i wrote about so my suggestion is to dismiss that guy so we can keep the loot 😄

I don't know about you, but I'm not terribly concerned about the rewards anyway, I just play arbitration survivals for the hell of it. If people want to extract, they can just die and keep their rewards.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

4 hours ago, Melbourne404 said:

I don't know about you, but I'm not terribly concerned about the rewards anyway, I just play arbitration survivals for the hell of it. If people want to extract, they can just die and keep their rewards.

I'm more on the "get good rewards and if possible have fun too" side 🙂for example i do at least one tridolon every day but can't really say i like it (after you do something many times is a normal consequence), i do it for the arcanes that i can selll for plat.

Edited November 4, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[IceColdHawk]

Question, was this mission where you died in, the infested faction?

@(PS4)cleefsentence

Skimmed through the replies, seems like it. You claim to not remember any toxic ancients around you but i can assure you, it must've been one.

Edited November 4, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[MajedTheShrewd]

Just use dajin with Reawaken and sacrifice will grant you infinite revives 😀

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by MajedTheShrewd

[Iludra]

And what happened to actually playing the game? I thought Arbitrations aren't necessarily there for the rewards, they're for fun, engaging gameplay - rewards are extra. The way I see it, you farm your way towards being able to play Arbitrations without dying (too much), so by that time, you shouldn't really need those rewards that aren't rotational. 

[iLightning13]

I'm surprised you even get to keep the rotation rewards. This is an elite mode for a reason.

[Graavarg]

2 hours ago, Iludra said:

And what happened to actually playing the game? I thought Arbitrations aren't necessarily there for the rewards, they're for fun, engaging gameplay - rewards are extra. The way I see it, you farm your way towards being able to play Arbitrations without dying (too much), so by that time, you shouldn't really need those rewards that aren't rotational. 

I was just about to write the same post 🙂. IMO the most important three things with arbitrations are:

1. They are fun.

2. You get to dust of and play all your warframes and weapons (the 300% buff is somewhat irresistible).

3. You get to try non-meta warframes and weapons in a super-meta setting AND with a random set of three other super-meta frames & weapons.

The loot is just an extra spice, to bring the mission & players together. The arbitration shield drones also messes things up (nicely), being immune to warframe abilities and stopping abilities or weapon spamming. Even if you are "spin to win"-melee fighting you need to change your target (a bit), since they hover overhead.

- - -

If you do an approx. calculation of how many Ayatan sculptures you can farm compared to how much time you would need to get the Ayatan stars for them, you will quickly come up with a formula that shows that it is actually the stars that limits the "endless" endo farming. Most high-MR players have (or at least had 🙂) a lot of stars in storage, but they will run out surprisingly quickly if you max the sculptures (a 100 statues needs around 350 stars, and the amber ones will of course run out first). Of course you get a heck of endo in the process...

And you might need it. Increasing a rare mod to r10 will require 20 small sculptures, 12 Orta or 9 Anasa (all filled, of course). For a Primed mod (r0 to r10) you will need 26 small sculptures, 16 Orta or 12 Anasa. More on the Ayatan sculptures & stars at the wiki: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ayatan_Sculpture

[Melbourne404]

42 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

I'm surprised you even get to keep the rotation rewards. This is an elite mode for a reason.

Except arbitrations are all endless missions, so the only way to not die would be to extract before the enemies manage to kill you, so not keeping rotation rewards would result in rewarding people who run away after one or two rotations and punishing people who actually try to challenge themselves with tougher enemies.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Melbourne404

[iLightning13]

Just now, Melbourne404 said:

Except arbitrations are all endless missions, so the only way to not die would be to extract before the enemies manage to kill you, so not keeping rotation rewards would result in rewarding people who run away after one or two rotations and punishing people who actually try to challenge themselves with tougher enemies.

Or just be realistic about how good you are. I stay until 30 minutes in arbitration survivals. I may be able to go for longer, but I also might not, considering how I'm lazy as hell when putting forma on my frames. It's easy to see when you meet your limit in survivals because you'll almost get killed and know that you're out of your depth. If someone stays after it gets too hard for them then its their fault if they get killed.

[(XBOX)N7 Tigger]

The game mode itself is fine. What needs to be adressed is the host magration fail when someone quits after dying. Which seems to be every time someone dies. Just lock in the rotation rewards as soon as you get them like in fissure missions. I have lost countless endo and sculptures over the past few days and now I have just lost the Sharpshooter mod.

[Melbourne404]

4 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

Or just be realistic about how good you are. I stay until 30 minutes in arbitration survivals. I may be able to go for longer, but I also might not, considering how I'm lazy as hell when putting forma on my frames. It's easy to see when you meet your limit in survivals because you'll almost get killed and know that you're out of your depth. If someone stays after it gets too hard for them then its their fault if they get killed.

But where would the fun be in that? Elite alerts are supposed to be about the challenge, not another repetitive farm mission where everyone runs off after rotation C. If you're just going to extract the moment the enemies get tough, then you can't really say you're challenging yourself, can you? Rewarding people who run away once they're not utterly dominating the game and punishing people who actually try to challenge tougher enemies doesn't sound particularly elite.

Personally, I'm just doing arbitration survivals for fun and don't really care about the rewards since I have all four mods already anyway, but I'm pretty sure not keeping the rotation rewards would result in a drastic increase in "realistic" people wanting to extract at the ten minute mark and dragging the whole squad with them, which even now there are plenty of.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I just dont like them because they take longer and I dont care about any of the rewads for it. well thats not ture, I bought the only one i cared about.

[PyreFox]

Gets one shotted, proceeds to defend his TennoManhood on the forums to explain how he never dies lol

This guy is so low key bragging. Moving on.

[clxrffdman]

You arent running arbitrations for the regular loot, you want the rotation loot, so the punoshment for failing is losing the bonus/regular loot.