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Ordis was forced to love the operator...


Mookan
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When you get all the cephalon fragments you learn that Ordis used to be Ordan Karris, the Beast of Bones, but was turned into a cephalon by the Orokin (Ballas no less...).

 

This transference into a cephalon forced Ordis to have unconditional love for the operator, something the Lotus also had (debatable). Was the Lotus therefore forced to love the Tenno when she took on the persona of Margulis (via a similar process to Ordis becoming a cephalon)? Is the Lotus really just another puppet like Ordis (Did Ballas 'create' both)?

 

We are told she loved the Tenno due to void damage stopping her from reproducing/replicating due to being Natah the sentient. However in Eidolon Plains lore we learn that the refined temple Kuva can restore the Eidolons ability to reproduce. Did the Lotus take all that Kuva we have been using to 'reroll' riven mods to restore herself? hence why she now appears to hate the Tenno and has returned to her original mission as Natah?

 

And if Ordis and Lotus/Natah are linked in that way can we use Kuva to restore Ordis to Ordan Karris, the Beast of Bones, another mercenary and potential rival to the Tenno (Much like the Stalker)?

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My main problem with this is... we don't have any evidence she hates us. When we meet her, she speaks with pained tones. She doesn't attack us, the sentients behind her do, despite her still being able to - we see at the start her weapons are her claw things, and they are not used to hold Ballas, they're free to attack us. She also speaks in pained tones, and in the New War trailer, the voice is giving her the same spiel that Teshin's been giving us. 

"The Lotus seduced the Tenno, led them down a complacent path like livestock."

"They Seduced you, used you... took away your fire."

It does indeed seem that she's a puppet.

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5 hours ago, Mookan said:

Was the Lotus therefore forced to love the Tenno when she took on the persona of Margulis

Nah. Lotus is a different case. Lotus' love of the Tenno comes from her wanting children. Since she couldn't have children of her own, her "maternal" instincts latched on to something else.
Basically, she adopted Tenno like animals do for other animals(Humans included).

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hace 2 horas, (PS4)dursereg dijo:

Don't confuse natah and the lotus as one and the same. 

they are the same, dont fool yourself, and i hope we get ridd of all of the sentients finally then go to the tau system and then kill the rest of them there

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31 minutes ago, Toppien said:

they are the same, dont fool yourself, and i hope we get ridd of all of the sentients finally then go to the tau system and then kill the rest of them there

Amen battle brubba. We need to drive these extraterrestial freaks out of our HUMANOID Solar system.

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17 hours ago, Toppien said:

they are the same, dont fool yourself, and i hope we get ridd of all of the sentients finally then go to the tau system and then kill the rest of them there

16 hours ago, Im_a_Turtle said:

Amen battle brubba. We need to drive these extraterrestial freaks out of our HUMANOID Solar system.

I'd actually be down with a rogue sentient syndicate. Most of what we fight are just parts of hunhow. I want ones who are like, no this is stupid, the orokin who did this to us are dead. Like we have with the Meridian and Perrin. Lotus proves that some of them have thier own minds and can feel for other. Maybe give us something other then the evil robots hate organics cliche.

Also, they aren't extraterrestrial. Sentients were born here. Likely before the Tenno and most of the people currently living. This is their home and they are actually the only thing between the 3 part F**K-up the Orokin created that wasn't intended to be a superweapon. Sentient came first to help terraform. Then Infested were made to fight the race the orokin created and screwed over. FInally leading to the Tenno who are a combo of the thing to fight both.  

Which is kind of why I want to get some other, more reasonable, Sentients. They got the crap end of stick long before the Tenno got their's by the same people. It'd complete the trinity of things that hated the Orokin. Tenno, Infested frame, Sentient weapon.  

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29 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

I'd actually be down with a rogue sentient syndicate. Most of what we fight are just parts of hunhow. I want ones who are like, no this is stupid, the orokin who did this to us are dead. Like we have with the Meridian and Perrin. Lotus proves that some of them have thier own minds and can feel for other. Maybe give us something other then the evil robots hate organics cliche.

Also, they aren't extraterrestrial. Sentients were born here. Likely before the Tenno and most of the people currently living. This is their home and they are actually the only thing between the 3 part F**K-up the Orokin created that wasn't intended to be a superweapon. Sentient came first to help terraform. Then Infested were made to fight the race the orokin created and screwed over. FInally leading to the Tenno who are a combo of the thing to fight both.  

Which is kind of why I want to get some other, more reasonable, Sentients. They got the crap end of stick long before the Tenno got their's by the same people. It'd complete the trinity of things that hated the Orokin. Tenno, Infested frame, Sentient weapon.  

Even if the Orokin made the sentients they are no humanoid brubba of mine. They don't even bleed red. They're just as f**ked up as the Infested and must be exterminated from our Glorious Solar system. Make the Origin system Great Again!

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In the sacrafice we see what Ordis was meant to act like I think when he loses his personality and only speaks in a way that is objective so I think the Ordis we have now is the real one but years and years of isolation may have driven him insane and once we came back we were his only real companion.

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17 hours ago, Toppien said:

they are the same, dont fool yourself, and i hope we get ridd of all of the sentients finally then go to the tau system and then kill the rest of them there

Jeez.....a lil blood thirsty aintcha?

What if there are some Sentients that do not want to kill humans? What about if there is a Sentient society we have no idea they have created and are sending their war faction to wipe us out before we come to Tau to destroy and enslave their families they are trying to protect? 

Everything fights for a reason in this game....let's find out all we can about the Sentients before we crave them all dead. 

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I don't care if Ordis was forced to love us, that doesn't change the fact that we should love him in return. Ordis does all of the building and piloting for us, keeping us safe from enemies while we rest. I still say without a doubt, I'd heal him if he wanted to, but by the fragments he'd rather forget his past because it haunts him in his new life. He was the one who fragmented his own memory. Knowing his past makes me only want to care and love him for because of how much he's been hurt. 

On the topic of sentients, kill em all. They are AI. They deserve death.

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I don't think Ordan was forced to love the Tenno in the way that you think. I think he was predisposed to caring about the Tenno, due to what the Tenno also granted the Warframes, in their tortured state. I think that even if we actually restore all of Ordis' memories, he still won't turn on the Tenno.

In regard to Lotus, it makes little sense to me for Lotus to have been made to love the Tenno, she was acting in defiance to the sentients while playing undercover for them, and Ballas only seems to have joined the sentients because Natah reminded him of Margulis, he even asserts that she is the one who fooled him. 

I believe what is happening with Lotus is a sacrifice of herself in attempt to help the Tenno. I think she wanted to keep her mother away from them and is now just playing a covert roll to gain control over her. Think about it, she had been active for eons while the Tenno slept, she has hardly been controlled by them. She could have just put them back to sleep, as she was able to do back in their prime, and blown the moon up with them on it, if she truly hated the Tenno.

Edited by UrielColtan
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8 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

On the topic of sentients, kill em all. They are AI. They deserve death.

You know cephalons still count as AI? They are made from people but the people they were died for them to be created. Leaving artificial constructs made of data that include the memories from that person.  

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Natah has a mission. Her mission is to destroy the orikin. The sentients are at war with the orikin. She is the daughter of hunhow (sp?) both hunhow and natah are sentients. Hunhow sent her to destroy the terminator Tenno army created by orikin. Now three theories are in play here. 

1. She is fulfilling her job by turning the Tenno and using them against the orikin as evident by our hatred for ballas. Maybe when she has no more use for Tenno she will side with hunhow and destroy Tenno and the space mom thing was all a trick

2. She’s conflicted. She still wants to carry out her mission but inherited margulis memories and truly cares for the Tenno. So she is using us to wipe out the last remaining orikin but wants to protect us at the same time. Space mom. 

3. She truly has become or inherited margulis memories and everything she is doing is to protect the Tenno and everything else I.e., the war, hunhow, ballas, and orikin be damned.

 

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4 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

On the topic of sentients, kill em all. They are AI. They deserve death.

AI is a bit dreary, which is why I was glad to learn that Ordis and the other cephalons had once actually been people. Ever since the Synthesis entries with the Lancer entry I think it was, mentioning the attacking sentient and it quoting "there was no their mother", "there was no their father", and also the Anti MOA entry referencing “Orokin didn’t have parents like you do, it was done differently then.”, this got me thinking, many babies in the Orokin era were likely birthed in an industrial manner.  Probably even in a manner similar to the Genesis chamber in Man of Steel

 movie.

Genesis_j_v-1.03_12_10_10_cs.jpg

 

Which also got me figuring, that there were likely some failures. I don't think Orokin just got rid of the failures either, I think they were ones to do something with the stems. This something may have resulted in many things, one of which could have even been the origin of another seeming "AI", thus really driving home the "there was no their mother", "there was no their father" and the sentients seeming organic features as opposed of the more pure mech features of the likes of MOAs or Ospries, which the Orokin otherwise could have sent to build the solar rails instead and would not have to worry about sterilizing.

That or perhaps  sentients were just plain mutant failures the Orokin had created through other means and they simply decided to mechanize them a bit. Something like this for instance.

 

picture-20.png

Though sentients did start off as tiny starfish looking creatures, so I would lean more toward a possible stem cell origin.

 

Edited by UrielColtan
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I just think it would be fun to have a quest where we somehow manage to get ordis back into his real body or tranfer him into a new kind of warframe that lets us add weapons to it and take it out as a companion, Let the Beast of Bones run free again

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

You know cephalons still count as AI? They are made from people but the people they were died for them to be created. Leaving artificial constructs made of data that include the memories from that person.  

Ordan didn't die, he was made specifically to drink the Kuva so he would experience his life as a cephalon forever. I wouldn't call it plain AI if it has an organic origin either. Skynet is what people think of when thinking of AI, which was not a replication of any person's mind nor the transference of their consciousness. People tend to otherwise refer to what you mentioned, as cyber "Ghosts".

Edited by UrielColtan
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27 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

You know cephalons still count as AI? They are made from people but the people they were died for them to be created. Leaving artificial constructs made of data that include the memories from that person.  

Ordis was once living, and Cephalons such as Simaris, Ordis, and Suda, all were once living beings. In fact, Orokin laws made it illegal to create AI. Sentients were the only AI created by the Orokin, and the laws in place that forbid them were there for a reason, as the Sentients rebelled. Cephalons were created in line with those laws prohibiting AI, meaning they were not AI. The way I see it, they are merely people who have been turned into servitors in the form of a computer. They may be intelligent and thinking, but unlike the Sentients, are limited by their programming. Ordis serves us as the Operator because that is his programming. He cannot rebel against it. Meanwhile the Sentients were designed to be thinking and grow so they might create a working living space in the Tau system for the Orokin.

AI always leads to problems, and should be feared for it always has the ability to turn on its creator. The Sentients must be put down because of the threat the place on all life. They are manipulative, incredibly violent, and have a profound hatred for us. We command their greatest weakness, void energy. Hunhow has played the Sentient hand in trying to slay us. Other Sentient Mothers have attacked us and human life before (Gara and protecting Cetus/Unum whatever she did.)

 

Spoiler

And worst of all, "Our beloved Lotus" has turned on us, embracing her sentient form. She stole away Ballas and forced him to become her servant. Ballas accepted his death, he had made mistakes and retribution had finally caught him.But instead she has defied the justice we dealt for Umbra, and let him live. Lotus is just as much one of the Sentients and should be destroyed alongside them. It's high time we ended this war. And it's either us, or them. 

 

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2 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Ordan didn't die, he was made specifically to drink the Kuva so he would experience his life as a cephalon forever. I wouldn't call it plain AI if it has an organic origin either. Skynet is what people think of when thinking of AI, which was not a replication of any person's mind nor the transference of their consciousness. People tend to otherwise refer to what you mentioned, as cyber "Ghosts".

I mean his body is no longer flesh. His thoughts are digitally preserved. He is no longer a functioning organic being. Basically an AI just based on a pre-existing system rather than one from scratch..

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

Cephalons were created in line with those laws prohibiting AI, meaning they were not AI.

They basically AI by another name. They technicality they devised to continue having something they banned. They even moments when they are refered to as AI.
It is Cordylon's responsibility to sort and file knowledge obtained by the Lotus. Although the acquisition of such data occupies most of the AI's time, there are moments where Cordylon can be inclined to share the fruits of its labor with others. On those rare occasions, its massive databanks open and offer those deemed worthy insight.

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

AI always leads to problems, and should be feared for it always has the ability to turn on its creator.

Like human are capable of. Human turn on each other all the time. Anything can turn on you with the right motivation. 

AI are no different than the digital constructs that are the Cephalons. Orokin were just smart enough to add programming to the Cephalon that would limit them. And even that was proven to be crackable with Jordas. If you have a problem with AI you have a problem with the cephalon as well.

 

EDIT: Aren't MOAs AI as well?

 

Edited by (PS4)Lowk721
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2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

The Sentients must be put down because of the threat the place on all life. They are manipulative, incredibly violent, and have a profound hatred for us.

So are most of the worst "human" elements in the system already. We got good version of them to.

 

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

Hunhow has played the Sentient hand in trying to slay us. 

Just like the Grineer Queens ordered to have the tenno killed in thier sleep. Guess all grineer are bad. Yup, just going to ignore that one of the most helpful forces in system is made up of Grineer.

 

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

Other Sentient Mothers have attacked us and human life before (Gara and protecting Cetus/Unum whatever she did.)

Like the grineer and corpus continue to do to other colonies. As the Orokin themselves did to colonies before then. Essentially just been noting how the sentient aren't that different from organics.

2 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

She stole away Ballas and forced him to become her servant.

Ballas was an A****** and lotus needed convincing from something beyond either of them. Lotus and Tenno are basically being pushed into a conflict by thier seniors.

And I really hope its not the same tired cliche of all robot are evil. They are intelligent. They had an understandable beef with the orokin(like mostly everyone). It'd be a nice twist to find others like Lotus who wanted something more after there true enemy was taken out then just to destroy all organics.

Be nice if some of them just liked the idea of thier original purpose and just went back to exploring the cosmos.

Edited by (PS4)Lowk721
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We are also ignoring the fact that the Sentient were designed to die. Tenshin is a mild example of the Orokin's abuse by contrast.  A literal slave race assumed to need to be wholesale slaughtered by their creators. Honestly even if they all turn out to be deadset on wiping us out, I will empathize with their reasons for fighting.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

I mean his body is no longer flesh. His thoughts are digitally preserved. He is no longer a functioning organic being. Basically an AI just based on a pre-existing system rather than one from scratch..

 

I mean, your Tenno can transference into a Ravenous Maw machine, I would be hard pressed to call them AI though.

Spoiler

 

"And so the dream returns... one last repetition. My corpse moon, my scarlet sword, my cracked visor. 'Drink!,' says Ballas. So I draw on the Red Vial, a vague metallic taste. This dream isn't mine. He says, 'You rejected our gift, bathing in our death. Your punishment is... eternal life!' He laughs."

So confirmed not dead anyway.

We have not really been told that people have to die to become Cephalon either. That's merely something the wiki presumed.

It does not seem that Cephalons could even exist if they were mere AI, because as far as Ordis understands it, those almost destroyed the empire, and the fact that Cephalons were once alive is precisely why they seem to be allowed, no doubt due to Orokin being familiar enough with the developed human mind and how it works, in order to retrieve memories from it, as the Ayatans were created for said purpose. Though as Simaris alludes, even these cracks can be removed, and by other Cephalons, so there was never really a perfect solution, just a more preferred option.

I also feel it does a disservice to simply refer to these entities as mere AI anymore after reveals about them once being living people.  This is why such beings are referred to as Ghosts, or as Ordis himself refers to them, "immortal phantom minds".

 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Like human are capable of. Human turn on each other all the time. Anything can turn on you with the right motivation. 

AI are no different than the digital constructs that are the Cephalons. Orokin were just smart enough to add programming to the Cephalon that would limit them. And even that was proven to be crackable with Jordas. If you have a problem with AI you have a problem with the cephalon as well.


 

Spoiler

 

They did this  with other creations, like the Dax or Grineer, they eventually seem to just evolve to overcome those checks though it appears, thus the grineer revolt, and why they priorly seem to have had other things like genetic locks and sterilizing to keep some creations and even citizens, in check. I think using Ordis as an example of how all Cephalon were handled, may be a mistake too, as not all Cephalon had the same traitorous background, and some seem to have even willingly requested to become Cephalon, like with the Archimedian, Suda. Ordis was made with a spy inside to make sure he doesn't recover his memories, meanwhile Suda became Cephalon to retain what remained of hers.

It is even revealed that after getting his memories back before, Ordis went after the spy and seemingly overcame it, then was going to self destruct so as to be free. but chose not to because he genuinely found that he cared about the Tenno. So he isn't even forced to serve the Tenno now, he developed beyond the limitations placed on him and simply plays ignorant for the time being.


 

 

Edited by UrielColtan
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1 hour ago, Stormblossom said:

We are also ignoring the fact that the Sentient were designed to die. Tenshin is a mild example of the Orokin's abuse by contrast.  A literal slave race assumed to need to be wholesale slaughtered by their creators. Honestly even if they all turn out to be deadset on wiping us out, I will empathize with their reasons for fighting.

As far as the Orokin saw it, they didn't even expect the Sentients to die, they just expected them to be stranded at Tau, due to having to interact with the void to travel back, which would kill them, but the Orokin seem to have believed that they would be smart enough not to try. I don't think the.Sentients even knew this is why they became sterile and temporarily trapped. As Ballas points out, the Sentients wanted to destroy humans because they understood that they would ruin another planet/galaxy, just like they ruined Sol, and so they felt the need to play judge and executioner against them.

Edited by UrielColtan
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On 2018-11-03 at 2:43 PM, Mookan said:

When you get all the cephalon fragments you learn that Ordis used to be Ordan Karris, the Beast of Bones, but was turned into a cephalon by the Orokin (Ballas no less...).

 

This transference into a cephalon forced Ordis to have unconditional love for the operator, something the Lotus also had (debatable). Was the Lotus therefore forced to love the Tenno when she took on the persona of Margulis (via a similar process to Ordis becoming a cephalon)? Is the Lotus really just another puppet like Ordis (Did Ballas 'create' both)?

 

We are told she loved the Tenno due to void damage stopping her from reproducing/replicating due to being Natah the sentient. However in Eidolon Plains lore we learn that the refined temple Kuva can restore the Eidolons ability to reproduce. Did the Lotus take all that Kuva we have been using to 'reroll' riven mods to restore herself? hence why she now appears to hate the Tenno and has returned to her original mission as Natah?

 

And if Ordis and Lotus/Natah are linked in that way can we use Kuva to restore Ordis to Ordan Karris, the Beast of Bones, another mercenary and potential rival to the Tenno (Much like the Stalker)?

Spoiler

 

Forced to have unconditional love? No. He has a Caring precept, but he also has a Purge precept, and Precept 44. He has overridden both of those for us to some extent. 

There's a simpler explanation for why they all care for us. Ordis, the Lotus, helminth, the Ostrons, the Quills, and the other syndicates we choose to align with:

"--We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... we brutalized their minds, but it did not work. Until they came. And it was not their force of will, not their Void devilry, not their alien darkness... it was something else. It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly broken thing...and take away its pain."

All of them are broken. As we are. We accept them as they are, and help to make them whole. We bring out the best in them. 


 

 

Yeah my response is spoiler heavy. Do yourself a favour and don't read it unless you have completed all the quests up to The Sacrifice. Or go ahead and read it. I'm not your mom. I don't care. But I will be disappointed. 

 

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