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Possible improvement to the Riven system


lukinu_u
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Rivens have been in a weird place for a long time, a lot of people hate them while some other like the concept. A few tweak could probably make them more enjoyable without destroying the economy around them.
How the title say, this theard is about changes that would in my opinion, improve the Riven system.

So first, here are the goal of the changes :
I - Make Riven ligther in data storage.
II - Keep people interested in using Rivens for all weapons over time.
III- Balance stats to avoid “meta Rivens” and give more incentives to use QoL stats over damages.


I - Make Rivens ligther in data storage.


Currently, each Riven has 4 stats, which each are number between 1.5 and 457.4, giving 4559 possible number for each stats, a disposition between 0.50 and 1.60 giving even more data to store.
I think the Riven system can be simplified to be lighter without loosing interesting features while also reducing the frustration of almost perfect Riven because you could get 0.1% more dmg.

  • Reduce the possible disposition to 1-5 how displayed instead of the current 0.50-1.60 multiplier (which would be like 0.50x, 75x, 1x, 1.30x, 1.60x).
  • Instead of totally random stats, give each stat a fix value with 3-5 tiers. For example, tiers for damages on a 1x disposition rifle would be 180-200-225 which are stored as 1-2-3 instead of full number like 218.7 and then multply it with the disposition.

So with these informations, it's quite easy to store datas more efficiently :

  • There is roughly 300 weapons in warframe for now, so let's be predicting and put a 4 digit number for this, we can store them in 10 bits
  • There is 30 possibles stats so we can store each of them in 5 bits.
  • The value of each stats is would be 1-3 so can be stored in 2 bits.
  • The possible riven setup are : 2+, 2+1-, 3+, 3+1-, which are 4 cases, this can be stored in 2 bits.
  • The level of the mod from 0 to 8 which can be stored in 4 bits.
  • The disposition doesn't need to be stored into the mod as it's already tied to the weapon.

After these changes, this means a single Riven data would be possible to store in 44 bits (6 bytes). It's probably a lot less than a Warframe with 3 config of mods and 3 config a slot than include armors pieces, syandana, colors, etc... and it cost the same without being limited to 90 max slots.
think 6 bytes per Riven is actually nothing compared to what is already stored on a player account and with these changes, increasing the limit to 180 or even 240 slots would be possible. And even if data storage is not a problem anymore, the 20 plats per slot can stay to encourage management of your Rivens.


II - Keep people interested in using Rivens for all weapons over time.

Currently, what’s happen is unused weapons with 4/5 Riven dispostion get a Prime variant that is already super good without Riven but still can use a 4/5 disposition Riven which shouldn’t happen.

My idea to fix this is to set a day each month (let’s say 1st) when all the Riven dispositions are automatically changed depending on the most/less used weapons during the previous month.
Additionally to this change, each weapon variants would get different Riven dispositions.

This change would actually keep the initial idea of Riven which was “make less used weapons more used” while keeping people interested in changing their Rivens each month when the dispositions get updated.

To match the fact Rivens can “expire” and require you to change them more often, the Kuva cost for reroll could be reduced.


III- Balance stats to avoid “meta Rivens” and give more incentives to use QoL stats over damages.

So the idea here is to avoid damage, multishot, critical chances, critical damages (or status changes on non-crit weapons) to be the best possibles stats in most of cases.

To do this, the idea is to split stats in 3 categories that get different multiplier compared to the default stats, so for example, compared to the current stats, +damage would be about 2/3 while +flight speed or any other QoL stats would be 2-3x.

The 3 tiers would be (mutliplier is approximative multiplier compared to current stats) :

  • Tier 1 (0.75x) : damages, multishot, critical damages, range.
  • Tier 2 (1x) : critical chances, status chances, elemental damages, fire rate, combo duration, punch through.
  • Tier 3 (2x) : physical damages, magazine size, reload speed, max ammo, recoil, zoom, flight speed, ammo maximum, channeling damage/efficiency, finisher damages.


Additionnally tweaks about stats :

  • Faction damages are no longer a thing on Riven, this is definitely not a good stat to have on randomized mod and just increase the pool with no good or bad outcome.
  • Flight speed now include beam range to be beneficial on more weapons.
  • Add swap speed as a possible stat on Rivens.
Edited by lukinu_u
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49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

My idea to fix this is to set a day each month (let’s say 1st) when all the Riven dispositions are automatically changed depending on the most/less used weapons during the previous month.
Additionally to this change, each weapon variants would get different Riven dispositions.

I think usage data of only one month is difficult, because I don't think DE stores this kind of data. The overall usage is already stored, to be displayed in your profile, so that is more convenient although it won't cause the drastic changes that are somewhat necessary on release of new primes.

Splitting weapon variants is not really needed if dispositions are adjusted frequently and effectively, as upgrades should always be upgrades.

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I - Make Rivens ligther in data storage.

yes!yes!yes!

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

To match the fact Rivens can “expire” and require you to change them more often, the Kuva cost for reroll could be reduced.

I see how you get to that conclusion, but I don't think that will ever happen.

 

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

To do this, the idea is to split stats in 3 categories that get different multiplier compared to the default stats, so for example, compared to the current stats, +damage would be about 2/3 while +flight speed or any other QoL stats would be 2-3x.

There will always be a combination with maximized damage, no matter how you change the system. And even with 100000000% flight speed, almost no one would use it, as it doesn't directly link to damage in all situations

 

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Faction damages are no longer a thing on Riven, this is definitely not a good stat to have on randomized mod and just increase the pool with no good or bad outcome.

That seems reasonable. Faction Damage seems to always be bad. Positive or negative.

 

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Flight speed now include beam range to be beneficial on more weapons.

Plus no Flightspeed on snipers and such.

 

49 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Add swap speed as a possible stat on Rivens.

ok, Idea but most people will disregard it as another trash stat.

Edit: Please use automatic coloring for your text and not black. It's kinda hard to see on the dark theme.

Edited by Oru5732
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1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

I - Make Rivens ligther in data storage.

Edit: Reading what you said again I think the following what you put in the OP in the first place. Sorry for missing that the first time.

Why not just go all out and remove variable stats entirely? So if you roll Damage, Crit Chance and Faction damage then someone else who rolls those same three types all have the exact same numerical values.

Or, let's tune that up a whole other degree. Get rid of Disposition on Riven mods themselves. So, in the database, every Riven has the same numerical stats for each stat type. A Lanka, Supra, and Soma Riven with damage and multishot would all have the same damage and multishot values. Then have the disposition be tied to equipping that Riven on a weapon. So when you equip that Riven, the game just throws on the given disposition multiplier when it displays you the values for the equipped Riven.

So the universal database would now hold

  1. The disposition of a weapon (something it already does)
  2. The single stats associated with each stat type.

And the only stat that would be individual to each specific Riven would be

  1. The list of stat types on the Riven

This would have the added benefit of allowing different variants of weapons to have different dispositions, which would solve a whole host of other Riven issues.

 

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

II - Keep people interested in using Rivens for all weapons over time.

I am just going to quote myself on a previous thread about why Disposition based on usage is already a broken mechanic.

On 2018-10-27 at 5:03 PM, DrBorris said:

Okay, but that is still Riven Disposition based off of usage, which has its own issues like...

On 2018-10-27 at 1:38 PM, DrBorris said:

Disposition is broken because it is never updated, but even if it was, disposition based on popularity is broken because it does not account for...

  • Ease of acquisition of weapons
  • Niche synergies
  • Exclusive items
  • The distribution of low level to high level players (for example a lot of new players use Braton, does that mean it should have a low disposition?)
  • How "fun" or "cool" a weapon is to use (ex: Paracesis)
  • "Reactive" disposition resulting in unstable dispositions

So.... how do you account for those things?

  • Should Paracesis have a lower disposition than Galatine Prime if it is used more (because it looks fudging sick and is central to the story)?
  • Should the Bratons be cursed with an eternal low disposition?
  • Should Sigma and Octantis have an insane disposition because so few people ahve it (guess this is less of a thing after Login 3.0, but you get the point.).
  • Should Nukor's disposition be based no its interactions with Harrow?
  • Should the disposition of vaulted weapons rise?
  • Should a weapons newness affect its disposition? Even after a month or two newer weapons will have inflated stats.

 

I know this is controversial in itself, but I would like to see the Disposition of weapons be handled by human hands. Having like seven anonymous community members that together decided the disposition for weapons on an eight week cycle would be a great option IMO. Then have it so new weapons aren't able to receive Rivens at all until one of those disposition re-balances comes along so they can be given accurate dispositions. I don't see why there is a need for a new weapon to have Rivens day one. It has its issues, humans are fallible, but it would be considerably better than disposition based on usage.

 

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

III- Balance stats to avoid “meta Rivens” and give more incentives to use QoL stats over damages.

But then how would Rivens do their job of bringing low tier weapons up to par with the big boys? There are already weapons with the highest disposition that, even given a "god roll" are still subpar. If you made a change like this either you would have to give these sub-par weapons insane dispositions which would lead to absolutely ridiculous 'QoL stats' or have those 'modifier dispositions' be based on 'weapon disposition' which is literally 'disposition squared'. Something along those lines could work, but good luck balancing exponential growth or instant reload speeds.

I would rather see Rivens fully embrace a roll as a Mod to allow you to bring all weapons to a level playing field. Yeah, having them be a way to 'customize' your weapon could also be nice, but you can't really do both at the same time.

 

 

Edit: Also, while what you are going for with the changes above is nice and all, it completely misses that whole thing about how you can't really work to get a good Riven. I mean, you can work to try your luck more times, but at the end of the day you get "lucky" to get a good Riven, you don't "work" for it. I want to be able to set a goal for myself with a Riven. If I want my Lato Riven to be the bee's knees then I am going to have hours of farming ahead of me but I know for certain that when I am done I am going to have whatever beauty of a Riven I had envisioned for that Lato. And I also know that my grind will be well spent to the extent that my Riven'd Lato will be competing with the best weapons in the game.

Edited by DrBorris
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Honestly the system that we have is good. But... Why is not good? because DE don't give a S#&$ about it. This system for work well with the Disposition and should not be changed, just updated. This system can work great only if rivens disposition are actually update every 2-3 weeks at max.

 

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1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

To match the fact Rivens can “expire” and require you to change them more often, the Kuva cost for reroll could be reduced.

Why?

The only change necessary is to update disposition more often. You're rolling for stats considered outside the game's balance. There's no reason to decrease the cost.

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The problem I see with #2 is that rebalancing Disposition values is heavily weighted towards new weapons that get released, since everyone rushes to build and level them. And attempting to counter it by releasing new weapons before the first of the month time locks the devs, forcing them to wait until the right time to release said weapons.

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16 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I - Make Rivens ligther in data storage.

Your suggestions on this part sound well thought out and plausible. However, in my opinion Riven data storage issues is a pretextual excuse and Riven capacity limit is based on game design and financial dicisions, not technical limitations.

17 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

II - Keep people interested in using Rivens for all weapons over time.

Disposition by popularity is just an intelectual dead end and simply cannot work, even with frequent updates. It is controversial in its own foundation.

17 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

III- Balance stats to avoid “meta Rivens” and give more incentives to use QoL stats over damages.

Or maybe we should directly adress general issues with modding: its staple mods and heavy lean towards crit and/or status stats?

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Rivens should probably be balanced based on the MR level or DE's gut feeling for the weapon they're going to.  An MKI Braton and Braton will have a disposition of 5 and would take a 6 if it existed, the Braton Prime will have a disposition of 4?

Tiberon 4, Tiberon Prime 2.

Basically, a riven can cover multiple weapons that share a name, but their disposition should be tied to the weapon, not the riven.

Mind with the re-balancing of many weapons in this game, MR might not be the most accurate measure anymore.  The Magnus is now competitive with the Pandero, for example, when before it wasn't even a contest, Pandero all the way.

P.S.  PBR THE MAGNUS PLEASE!  It still looks like plastic.

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