Mech and Tek Mods & Innate Precepts

[Lewtenant]

Each beast has (2) innate precepts, the mods Bite (3) and Maul (4) for damage, Pack Leader (5) to keep it from dying, Hunter recovery (6) to heal you on occasion, Link armor (7), and link health (8) to keep it from dying, fetch (9) so it can items, and animal instinct (10) so you can see that enemy marker in the wall, and now the mecha/tek sets that put them at (12) mods.

I understand that not every mod made needs to be strapped onto a companion. I've skipped over hunter synergy, link shields, the shelter mod, and more that some people may want to use. Previously warframe abilities were mods and players in the past have mentioned tying the innate precepts of companions to abilities of the companion that level up with the companion rank.

Is it time to integrate these precepts into the companions? Is there a disadvantage to integrating precepts (besides the obvious power creep)? Fortuna will add another 3 mods that we want to strap on our kubrows and kavats.

[Kyoresh]

6 minutes ago, Lewtenant said:

Is it time to integrate these precepts into the companions

definitley 

[Voltage]

Innate precepts means that we will lose 2 mod slots. There is always a trade off. I would still like precept mods to be integrated into companions.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Voltage

[Fishyflakes]

2 innate precepts are definitely not mandatory and neither is Hunter Recovery for sure.

And... dare I say it~
People used pets without Fetch before 🤣

[Miser_able]

The problem with making precepts innate is that now you have no way to turn them off. Currently if I want a companion to not attack, all I have to do is take off the attack precept. If it's integrated, then there is nothing I can do. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

No, y'see, it's all about making the choice. You have to choose whether or not to upgrade your companion with basic necessities like additional damage, because player agency is what's important. The game would be too simple and lack depth if players didn't need to habitually equip basic statistical progression. Stop trying to casualize Warframe. /s

Seriously, if it can be whatever color you want as long as it's black... that's not much of a choice now, is it?

I don't think that every mod you listed is strictly necessary (e.g., Pack Leader, Hunter Recovery, Fetch, Animal Instinct), but I very much support the sentiment of replacing stat-progression mods which are automatically included in the vast majority of builds.

@Miser_able

Good point, but it should still be possible to work-around that issue. For example, simply removing a Sentinel weapon or implementing a toggleable AI behavior for pets (e.g., hotkey or gear item for switching pets between aggressive/defensive/passive stances).

Edited November 6, 2018 by DiabolusUrsus

[JohnKable]

having choice and options is a good thing.
It the exact same for weapons and frames, you have alot of mods and you pick the ones you can benefit the most.

You cant have damage, multishot, elemental, status, reload, magazine etc etc mods altogether on you weapon... you get to choose which ones you want most.

And i dont see anything bad having more choice in companion mods. For example i never ran animal instinct or bleedout link mods

The only real problem i see when i mod companions is that of course they need formas to fit all 10 mods on them but its very hard to forma them AND still be able to fit 10 different mods for another setup.

[DiabolusUrsus]

42 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

having choice and options is a good thing.

Agreed.

42 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

It the exact same for weapons and frames, you have alot of mods and you pick the ones you can benefit the most.

Also agreed.

42 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

You cant have damage, multishot, elemental, status, reload, magazine etc etc mods altogether on you weapon... you get to choose which ones you want most.

Oh, please. When do you ever choose to not add damage? In what build would you not use Serration? Hornet Strike? Point Blank? Pressure Point? When would you ever choose something like magazine size instead? If something is automatically included in practically every single build by default it's not really a choice. I very much support requiring players to make choices and weigh the benefits of those choices, but objectively mandatory mods like +damage are not conducive to meaningful choice.

If a weapons need Serration to be viable against the available content (up to Sorties, discounting endless endurance runs), then there is no value to keeping it as a mod. A better design would be giving all weapons adequate damage from the beginning and rebalancing +damage mods with meaningful trade-offs (similar to Heavy Caliber) and smaller bonuses (e.g., +50% damage instead of +165%).

[JohnKable]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Agreed.

Also agreed.

Oh, please. When do you ever choose to not add damage? In what build would you not use Serration? Hornet Strike? Point Blank? Pressure Point? When would you ever choose something like magazine size instead? If something is automatically included in practically every single build by default it's not really a choice. I very much support requiring players to make choices and weigh the benefits of those choices, but objectively mandatory mods like +damage are not conducive to meaningful choice.

If a weapons need Serration to be viable against the available content (up to Sorties, discounting endless endurance runs), then there is no value to keeping it as a mod. A better design would be giving all weapons adequate damage from the beginning and rebalancing +damage mods with meaningful trade-offs (similar to Heavy Caliber) and smaller bonuses (e.g., +50% damage instead of +165%).

sure. indeed you have more freedom of choice for companions since you can build them for full utility insted of having mandatory mods like serration.
Bite and maul ar far from being mandatory in companion slots... sure i use them on all my companions right now. But i could definitely think about dropping both if DE releases enough utility mods that i value more than damage.
You cant say the exact same for weapons since you will always run some mandatory mods like serration, but you will always have a couple flex slots to achieve a certain performance that you value better than just raw damage (i can name multiple weapons running reload, mag or even flight speed mods in my arsenal).

Anyways i dont see the removal of mods like serration being good for build diversity, in fact i think removing serration will just make 99.9% of people just slot in one more elemental mod still going for pure damage and still having basically no build diverity.

Edited November 6, 2018 by JohnKable

[DiabolusUrsus]

14 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

sure. indeed you have more freedom of choice for companions since you can build them for full utility insted of having mandatory mods like serration.
Bite and maul ar far from being mandatory in companion slots... sure i use them on all my companions right now. But i could definitely think about dropping both if DE releases enough utility mods that i value more than damage.

So you feel that companions do adequate damage up to Level 100 without these mods?

14 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

You cant say the exact same for weapons since you will always run some mandatory mods like serration, but you will always have a couple flex slots to achieve a certain performance that you value better than just raw damage (i can name multiple weapons running reload, mag or even flight speed mods in my arsenal).

That's beside the point. Sure, some weapons have utility stats that are obnoxious enough to warrant modding against (e.g., 3+ second reloads), but that just means those weapons have to sacrifice viability where other weapons don't.

14 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

Anyways i dont see the removal of mods like serration being good for build diversity, in fact i think removing serration will just make 99.9% of people just slot in one more elemental mod still going for pure damage and still having basically no build diverity.

Obviously the need for change is not limited to Serration, but any and all +damage mods currently in the game.

+Damage needs a fix.

+Multishot needs a fix.

+Elemental damage needs a fix.

There needs to be more to the modding system than "add free damage in all the slots that will fit it."

1. Extra damage shouldn't be necessary; weapons should be viable on their own.

2. Extra damage needs relevant trade-offs, such that dealing more damage us not automatically more desirable.

I agree that simply getting rid of Serration won't solve the problem, but I still think the problem needs solving.

[JohnKable]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

So you feel that companions do adequate damage up to Level 100 without these mods?

 

Nope they dont. but my point is that companions, unlike weapons, dont have a single purpose.
With a weapon you want to kill stuff, nothing more than killing stuff in the most efficient way.
Companions arent designed to be actually good at killing. Sure they can do some impressive takedowns even at high levels,  but we are talking about 1 enemy every 5 seconds at best (if the AI doesnt decide to go on vacation)
Aside from fixing the AI, companions arent definitely the ultimate killing machine. And in all honesty i feel i could drop all the damage mods in favor of full ultility. 3-4 more utility mods instead of 1 kill every 5 seconds? its a decent trade off to me.
Imho with more mods to come, companions will actually have the best choice pool for customization among all other systems.

still hating that their link mods are tied to warframes values. but maybe thats just me

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, JohnKable said:

Nope they dont. but my point is that companions, unlike weapons, dont have a single purpose.

Okay, that's fair.

1 minute ago, JohnKable said:

Imho with more mods to come, companions will actually have the best choice pool for customization among all other systems.

The issue with this side of the equation is that some utility is just objectively better than others. Even with utility, things tend toward homogeny (as we've previously seen through Carrier) unless the relevant options are distributed carefully.

1 minute ago, JohnKable said:

still hating that their link mods are tied to warframes values. but maybe thats just me

Yeah, they scrapped that on Archwing so it's hard to understand why it's still a thing on pets.

[JohnKable]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

The issue with this side of the equation is that some utility is just objectively better than others. Even with utility, things tend toward homogeny (as we've previously seen through Carrier) unless the relevant options are distributed carefully.

 

i think that companions just have more and better utility mods than sentinels (taking into account the new mods)
sentinels got someting more very lately with good and unique precept. Also carrier, aside being the only one with vacuum for a long time, had its prime as the only "tanky" sentinel also for a long time.
Ccompanions already have very good base precept that i think will always differentiate them enough, and i think that fixing lackluster base precepts (like powers for warframes) will always be the real key for diveristy

[Mach25]

On 2018-11-06 at 4:12 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

So you feel that companions do adequate damage up to Level 100 without these mods?

That's beside the point. Sure, some weapons have utility stats that are obnoxious enough to warrant modding against (e.g., 3+ second reloads), but that just means those weapons have to sacrifice viability where other weapons don't.

Obviously the need for change is not limited to Serration, but any and all +damage mods currently in the game.

+Damage needs a fix.

+Multishot needs a fix.

+Elemental damage needs a fix.

There needs to be more to the modding system than "add free damage in all the slots that will fit it."

1. Extra damage shouldn't be necessary; weapons should be viable on their own.

2. Extra damage needs relevant trade-offs, such that dealing more damage us not automatically more desirable.

I agree that simply getting rid of Serration won't solve the problem, but I still think the problem needs solving.

You know, it came to me earlier - the problem with what are called "modifications" are really issues with the warframes and weapons themselves - damage mods and the like are bandages that disguise the problem with the suits and weapons themselves - they are not fit for purpose. No, they are not. Look, if the devs want to balance the game around level 30 (I think it was), they need to make sure that frames and weapons can do tank and deal enough damage without any mods whatsoever against these enemies in a desired time frame. Can you kill enemies fast enough at level 30 in the desired time frame without boosts? Look at good ol' street racing - need for speed series, fast and furious, etc. Ask anyone who works in the aftermarket parts stores, import tuners, etc., they apply mods that make their transports able to do things they were not designed to do. To use terms more technically savvy people use, we can also call this overclocking. A Honda civic fresh off the showroom floor is not going to push 130mph in 3 seconds because the designers built their vehicles within the bounds of the law and not to be used for high-speeds, tight turns, massive speed boosts, etc. However, if I install nitrous oxide, weight reduction and body kits, mess with the suspension, etc., I'll get a vehicle that's designed for those challenges. You see where I'm going and what I mean.

Since we have access to the original suit designs (the so-called Prime variant), according to the story, the Tenno and their suits were able to take down the Sentients, meaning these Prime frames and weapons should necessarily be powerful enough without mods to handle our chosen baseline of level 30 grineer, corpus and infested enemies with ease, since Sentients have been designed to be tougher than them storywise and gameplay wise. Now, to retain the sense of progression, I would rather these mods such as multishot be designed for taking on enemies past the level 30 mark, since now we're pushing them past their design limitations and are actually modifying them to handle stronger threats. Since surely we'll be moving past level 30 enemies, I would favor redesigning the modification system to where it's that - modifications. We have slots dedicated to specific mods and since the mainstay of this title is centered around the mod system, we will need enough energy and modifications to make varying builds tailored to our playstyles - so-called essential mods that the developers want to use as a sense of progression are kept separately from the others, otherwise, we'll keep getting threads about "get rid of serration, split chambre", etc. and you will keep getting same-ish builds.

[DE]Steve never impressed me as the type of guy who just likes to let the days go by, doing the same thing, over and over and over and over and over and over and disappearing into the void of nothingness - he enjoy things that are fresh and original and is a very strong believer in going off the beaten path and forging something new. These changes would be refreshing for longtime players as well as newer players - "look at this vandal, it's become a plasma thrower!" You get what I mean - no more of people getting on YouTube or going onto Warframe Builder and releasing builds that are slight variations of the same, the game will begin to reflect the design philosophy of the studio. I think of Jeff Bezos as I write - he goes to work everyday as if Amazon is still a start up company and look at it now - this kind of flexiblity and openmindedness leads to great successes. Who knows what warframe will become in time - it may become the most dominant force (or one of them) in titles in future and implement changes that the rest of the gaming industry will make part of their future titles.

The desired overall feel of the game is for it to be a power fantasy - in other words, you want folks to have fun and do all kinds of crazy, ninja stuff, if I might use a certain someone's vernacular. Implementing these changes we proposed would be a step in the right direction, I believe. I agree with your proposal and hopefully my writings will spur an idea or serve as a source of encouragement over there at the studios to someone, somewhere, whether now or in the future.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Mach25

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

i think that companions just have more and better utility mods than sentinels (taking into account the new mods)
sentinels got someting more very lately with good and unique precept.

Setting this aside as subjective and a matter of opinion. Not that you're wrong, I just don't see any worth in debating about it.

5 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

Also carrier, aside being the only one with vacuum for a long time, had its prime as the only "tanky" sentinel also for a long time.

And when that changed we saw a very fast shift to Helios Prime, no? My point is just that even in terms of utility there are things which manifest as "mandatory."

Sure, strictly speaking it's not "truly" mandatory because the game doesn't fail if you forgo it, but there's something questionable about the existing choices when they skew so heavily in any one direction.

5 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

Ccompanions already have very good base precept that i think will always differentiate them enough, and i think that fixing lackluster base precepts (like powers for warframes) will always be the real key for diveristy

Okay, but why are those precepts even still mods in the first place? Why does a Kubrow need to equip a mod just to use one of its defining attacks/abilities?

If a precept is exclusive to that companion, why should that companion still need to equip it at cost?

[Chappie]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Oh, please. When do you ever choose to not add damage?

People build weapons a certain way because that is how they learned to build weapons.  Nearly every human learns by imitation first.  Second, just picking serration is sorta disingenuous since you have 7 other mod slots.   Every mod after serration is less % damage increase than the mod before it.   Once you have enough damage to reduce your TTK to something you find "ok" then you can choose other options based upon your play style.   

If people would stop building weapons for content they will most likely NEVER experience based something they saw online...the world is more interesting.   

But I will agree that modding versatility is lower than I would like...but it is FAR from terrible.  

[DiabolusUrsus]

11 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Snip

I think it's telling that we're seeing other games imitate Warframe's marketing model (co-op space-fantasy w/ loots) but not really its mechanics.

Warframe is IMO subsisting on its unique aesthetic style and good standing, while its actual mechanical depth is suffering for it.

2 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

People build weapons a certain way because that is how they learned to build weapons.  Nearly every human learns by imitation first.

Neat. So what about adding damage mods to builds is actually wrong or likely to change?

2 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

 Second, just picking serration is sorta disingenuous since you have 7 other mod slots.

Excuse you? How is that disingenuous?

If Serration always occupies a slot, how is that any different from only having 7 slots?

2 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

Every mod after serration is less % damage increase than the mod before it.   Once you have enough damage to reduce your TTK to something you find "ok" then you can choose other options based upon your play style.

And if you need all 8 slots before you get to that point? What then?

Why is that better than having "ok" TTK from the beginning, with options for additional damage being more limited?

Why is it a good thing to require players to clear the hurdle of baseline viability before allowing them to actually start customizing?

2 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

If people would stop building weapons for content they will most likely NEVER experience based something they saw online...the world is more interesting.   

But I will agree that modding versatility is lower than I would like...but it is FAR from terrible.  

So if you recognize the room for improvement, why would you be against that improvement? Why does the modding system need to be completely broken before we should care about fixing it?

I agree that people would do better to pay less attention to the meta, but the issue is that the meta out-performs the non-meta by leaps and bounds. The meta still exists in balanced games, but the difference is usually small enough that it can still be ignored.

[Lewtenant]

6 hours ago, Miser_able said:

Currently if I want a companion to not attack, all I have to do is take off the attack precept.

This is what I didn't know. A kubrow/kavat without offensive precepts, bite, maul, hunter command, etc. will not attack units?

I don't have much to input with regards to weapon modding. I've always maximized damage per trigger pull to mow down enemies quickly, use less ammo (helios most used sentinel), and minimize reloads. Point of this thread was with respect to the innate abilities of beasts and whether they should still be considered mods. Thank you guys for all the input on that topic!