Multishot Breaks Stealth Multiplier ( Present since U19.6.3 )

[auxy]

You're projecting, because you clearly didn't read my post.

I read your whole post, and deemed it the obvious nonsense that it is. As I said before, your position is not reasonable. Here's the single-line counter-argument:

An enemy should never be alerted by a single killing blow.

To elaborate: One shot is one attack. That much is clear. A judge would never hit me with multiple charges of assault or murder if I shot someone with a shotgun. Firing a shotgun (or multishot weapon) takes one ammo from the magazine. In all ways, one shot (one trigger pull) is one attack. This idea that "because the game is functioning as programmed, it is functioning properly" is some kind of neo-post-modern insanity that I will not broker in my presence.

[Athgaar]

22 hours ago, auxy said:

To elaborate: One shot is one attack. That much is clear. A judge would never hit me with multiple charges of assault or murder if I shot someone with a shotgun.

...Here's the single-line counter-argument: An enemy should never be alerted by a single killing blow.

...This idea that "because the game is functioning as programmed, it is functioning properly" is some kind of neo-post-modern insanity that I will not broker in my presence.

There are no judges in Warframe. Warframe is not an attempt to simulate real life. Yes, obviously a real person would have no time to react to being hit with one pellet of buckshot before being hit by another from the same round. Warframe is not an attempt to simulate real life. Enemy alertness is not written as an attempt to simulate the situational awareness of real persons. It is a game rule.

Your counterargument fails because it either abandons your original position (if "blows" means hits, where your original position was that a multishot weapon despite needing several "blows" to kill a target should work for stealth kills anyway) or it's bare assertion of your original position (if "blows" means trigger pulls, in which case "an enemy should never be alerted by a single killing blow" adds nothing but exhortation [a change from the descriptive "will" to the normative "should"] to these two sentences from the original post, which you are defending: "Any ranged weapon kill that includes damage from extra projectiles via multishot will NOT count as a stealth kill. It will only count if it only takes one of the shots to deal enough damage to kill the enemy").

If one shot is one attack in Warframe, then one attack is not necessarily one hit because one shot is not necessarily one hit. Enemies are meant to be alerted by being hit, not by being attacked or by being shot; justification has been offered for this, and you have yet to offer an argument against it. As a parallel example, a Glyph Keeper will still die to a 4+ Grapeshot in Magic. Grapeshot isn't attempting to simulate a real weapon either; it's just several hits of 1 damage each. Glyph Keeper isn't meant to counter every spell or ability that hits it in one resolution of the stack, or one turn, or one phase, or whatever (just like enemies aren't meant to be unalerted until a second, or five seconds, or a year or whatever after they're hit); it's meant to counter one spell (just like the unalerted state is meant to last for one hit). Grapeshot, because of Storm (just like your weapon, because of multishot), is not one spell (one hit).

I am not claiming that the game functioning as programmed is necessarily the game functioning correctly; earlier, I said that the older behaviour of enemies being stealth killed by single shotgun blasts was buggy. There are a few other bugs in Warframe, discrepancies between its coding and the most plausible design intent; some make the game more like real life than it's intended to be (e.g. Jackal getting caught on rocks in the Venus open world), others make it less so (e.g. level holes that let people get to the untextured insides of solid objects). If it's "neo-post-modern insanity" that a game's rules are not an attempt to simulate real life, I invite you to check out Pac-Man (1980) and its magical tunnel that teleports Pac-Man from the left side of the play area to the right side and vice versa.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Athgaar

[unrealityCatalyst]

All right, how about this then?

From the patch notes of the update that introduced the alertness change, what it did was simply alter what enemies do in response to taking damage in a mission where alarms are not yet set off. Not how they are alerted by damage in the first place. Before, they just instantly knew you were there and ran around screaming, as if they had actually seen you. There was nothing else that was stated about changes or fixes to stealth. Given that there was no mentions of the previous behavior of multishot/stealth multiplier interactions anywhere, one can infer that they were simply working as intended. The sudden shift in this following the change, therefore, can only be seen as a bug, unless otherwise stated by DE themselves. And from having seen a number of threads in the past ( yet somehow not being able to find them again, despite myself having posted in at least one ) only tells me that I'm not the only one that thinks so.

So I say drop the argument on whether or not the bug is in fact a bug, and continue with the bug report thread on the assumption that it just is until we get some form of confirmation/acknowledgement from DE.

[auxy]

2 hours ago, Athgaar said:

There are no judges in Warframe. Warframe is not an attempt to simulate real life. Yes, obviously a real person would have no time to react to being hit with one pellet of buckshot before being hit by another from the same round. Warframe is not an attempt to simulate real life. Enemy alertness is not written as an attempt to simulate the situational awareness of real persons. It is a game rule.

Unfortunately, you're simply wrong. The game is a simulation, as all games are simulations of something (not "simulation games", but rather in the technical sense). The game is simulating stealth combat. So yes, enemy alertness is in fact an attempt to simulate the situational awareness of real persons. The fact that you would even assert that the game shouldn't work the way real life does simply because it's a game (nevermind that all of the other things in the game are simulations or abstractions of real objects and actions) is the postmodern insanity.

When Excalibur uses Slash Dash, he's moving himself forward in the virtual space and inflicting a bladed attack on an enemy. All of this happens according to rational and expected natural laws with the conceit that Excalibur can A) blast himself forward without external impetus and B) manifest a blade of energy. There is no reason to assume anything in Warframe would not proceed exactly as it would in reality unless otherwise indicated, and there is nothing to indicate that the Grineer are preternaturally perceptive to the point that they would become aware of an enemy within the microseconds between throwing knife impacts into the back of their head.

2 hours ago, Athgaar said:

Your counterargument fails because it either abandons your original position (if "blows" means hits, where your original position was that a multishot weapon despite needing several "blows" to kill a target should work for stealth kills anyway)

It does not, and your argument here is a disingenuous semantic one. A single shot is a single blow is a single attack. You know what I meant. The number of hits is irrelevant. I re-stated the original argument simply because you haven't refuted it except to say "well it's just a game, man, so it doesn't work like real life." Which is stupid and doesn't even bear consideration for a moment, nevermind the the hour-plus of my life that I've wasted on you.

2 hours ago, Athgaar said:

 If it's "neo-post-modern insanity" that a game's rules are not an attempt to simulate real life, I invite you to check out Pac-Man (1980) and its magical tunnel that teleports Pac-Man from the left side of the play area to the right side and vice versa.

Except even Pac-Man is simulating real life. Pac-Man follows natural rules. He exists in a world with physical spaces, he has walls that he cannot pass through and open spaces that he can. He has to move over to objects to collect them. His enemies don't appear to have or don't use ranged attacks, so as expected, they must go over to him to defeat him. The "magical tunnel" could simply be a tunnel; perhaps his maze exists on the surface of a sphere or cylinder. Sure, it doesn't look like reality, but that's simply a combination of the limitations of the medium and the artist's intended presentation. Again, you fail to understand the concept of conceit.

2 hours ago, Athgaar said:

Enemies are meant to be alerted by being hit, not by being attacked or by being shot; justification has been offered for this, and you have yet to offer an argument against it.

No, there is no justification for it working this way. No argument can be made against it because it is asserted without reasonable justification, and what is asserted without justification can be discarded without consideration. Debate 101. Why would it work that way? It makes no sense, and it never did. Quit wasting our time with your dishonesty.