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Is The Lotus Evil (2018)


Mizunohebi
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after the Chimera prologue came out regarding Ballas as a half sentient half Orokin hybrid i could only come to the conclusion that either A. Hunhow corrupted him 

or B. The lotus did that to him after what we see in the sacrifice as the lotus is now reverted back to her sentient form, however this would be hard to tell because we have yet to have the release of Chimera. Which i assume we fight lotus give me any thoughts you have on this

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This should be in General Discussion, not Feedback.

And from what we know she "gave him the gift of life", but she (or somebody else) was also using him like an sentry, or an "eye". 

Thing is that there are so many holes in the story that it's hard to be 100% sure that the Lotus is "bad". I remember an old thread I started a couple months ago, when we got the Apostasy Prologue, where I explained how it almost felt like the Man in the Wall was somehow turning us against her by playing with our mind. Tbh, I still think it's possible that all of this is... not exactly happening the way we think... dunno how to explain it. 

But anyway, I sincerely hope we won't have to fight her in the end. 

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Yes, but no, but kinda... So, is there something new to discuss other than this or "Why Clem Prime should be a thing" kind of overused threads?

Either way no matter the discussion we'll find out eventually. Want a hint? Despite her "switching sides" we still have her as an hologram. If it was to be changed it would have already, most likely.

Edited by (PS4)Pauloluisx
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At the beginning the Lotus was as mysterious as the Tenno, a history stolen by amnesia.  Over time we've started to learn both about Lotus and Tenno, neither entirely good or bad.  By now we know she was Natah, a sentient and daughter of Hunhow, sent through the void, sacrificing her own chance to be mother, to infiltrate the Orokin and pave the way for the Sentient invasion.  We know that she betrayed the sentients though as she refused to kill the Tenno and instead hid them, caring for them as if they were her own children.  We know that Ballas considered her to be Marghulis returned but I'm not sure if we know why he believes that.  Did he try to transfer Marghulis into the body of Natah to create Lotus?  Is there really some part of her in there?  As confusing as this situation is for us I imagine it to be much worse for Lotus whose own identity and sense of self is what is being reassembled here.  The question I have to ask though is which identity is most important?  Does it matter who she was before she lost her memory and does she have to go back to being that or can she choose to move on from that and remain as the person she defined herself as when she still had amnesia, our caring motherly guide?  If she still has the capability for free will does she realise that she doesn't have to go back to being Natah and could remain as Lotus if she chooses?  Is she aware of her options or is she too swept up in the revelations of the past?  The War Within and Chains of Harrow had the Tenno regain painful memories and learn to find strength from them and The Sacrifice showed the Tenno helping Excalibur Umbra cope with his past and told us managed to "see inside the broken creature and take away their pain" in reference to warframes in general.  It is my hope and belief that the Tenno will help Lotus regain her sense of self and move on from the pain of Natah and Marghulis without allowing the past to define her present or her future.

Her situation reminds me of part of a manga I've been reading, Bloom Into You.  Around chapter 30 the main characters are performing a play about a woman who was in an accident and suffered memory loss.  Her friends and family all try to help her remember by describing her from their point of view but they all have different opinions, different stories and almost could be talking about different people as there are aspects of herself that each person believes she only revealed to them.  She's unsure of how to act, which version of her past self to try to become again and confides in the nurse that has been tending to her since the accident.  The nurse points out that she didn't know the woman before the accident and only knows her as she is now, describing her current quirks and personality traits.  In the end the woman decides not to try to become any of her past selves and instead remain as the person she is now, an option she didn't know she had until speaking to the nurse. 
Comparing that to Lotus' situation, Ballas and Hunhow are like the friends and family, telling her of her past as Natah and Marghulis and expecting her to return to one or the other.  Maybe the Tenno may take the role of the nurse (as they are also mostly unaware of the past and only know her in the present) and give her the option to remain as Lotus instead?

Edited by Katinka
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4 hours ago, Mizunohebi said:

after the Chimera prologue came out regarding Ballas as a half sentient half Orokin hybrid i could only come to the conclusion that either A. Hunhow corrupted him 

or B. The lotus did that to him after what we see in the sacrifice as the lotus is now reverted back to her sentient form, however this would be hard to tell because we have yet to have the release of Chimera. Which i assume we fight lotus give me any thoughts you have on this

Beyond the fragments that are found of him, there's no indication of Hunhow being nowhere near our system, so if I had to guess I would say Natah did that to him.

This will contain story spoilers. And a wall of text.

 

Spoiler

I'm not sure I'm missing bits of the lore here, but it's known that Ballas had dealings with the sentients during the orokin rule, so I don't think it's too far fetched to think that the whole Natah thing becoming Lotus and adopting Margulis as her persona (The woman Ballas loved, and the one he killed) might be something he did; maybe out of remorse for executing Margulis or because being a double agent did not sit well with him since this dude is ultra narcissistic and likes being the one doing the manipulation instead of being manipulated.
Lotus in her sentient form was with him, at least since the moment Umbra was destroyed the first time (as seen during his quest) and this flashback happens as the orokin are still alive. 
I think this is particularly plausible since all it took for Lotus to revert back to being Natah was him waving his hand, it would make sense for him to awaken her if he was the one who made her believe she was something else than a sentient in the first place.

So with this context Natah would remember her time as Lotus (the proof of this is that she didn't disintegrated us during Umbra's awakening) and the fact that she comes back for Ballas when we mortally wound him.
Knowing who he is and still having margulis imprint in her mind it would make sense for her to save him, even if saving him was making him something like her.

It's a nice reversal I think. 
He was in love with margulis and killed her, but never got over it, this might even be the reason why he would betray his own people in the first place.
He had Natah with him the whole time and tried somehow to recreate the woman he loved making this sentient adopt a human form and then have her carry on protecting the children the original died for under the jade light.

We kill the orokin but Natah, now being Lotus doesn't trigger the last part of Hunhow's plan, instead looking after us while we sleep movng the moon to the void. Ballas goes into hiding. without the orokin ruling, the colonies fall apart and other factions appear/rise. The grinner start their conquest campaing to save themselves from dna decay. Vor finds a warframe and Lotus instruct us to fight. we start killing people in their thousands again under her guidance. we weaken the entire system not letting anyone take the upper hand. the grinner find a chunk of Hunhow in Uranus, He awakens, sees Natah doing cosplay and realizes we are still alive and that his daughter is kinda confused. Knowing the truth about the repository he hijacks/turns the stalker to his side he sends him to the void to wreck the moon and kill us so he can finally invade the solar system. Lotus pulls the moon out of the void and truly awakens us. the stalker follow us from the moon to our orbiters but seeing what we truly are he questions his own existance and realizes he's trapped inside a warframe, we kick him out of our ship and he goes back to stalking, Hunhow starts to feel like Sauron. We confront the grinner queens, who happen to be orokin and want us so they can change their faulty decayed cloned bodies for some fashionable young tenno flesh. we decapitate one of them (or not) and the other one escapes. 
Seeing as we continue to wreck everyone's S#&$ and make Hunhow's job easier, Ballas returns and awakens Natah to her true self. We find Umbra's scarf, we feel edgy, we reconstruct him and relive his whole ordeal. We find out that every warframe was once a person, about Ballas, Natah and Hunhow. We wound Ballas, Natah comes and saves him, she turns him into a hybrid, effectively destroying everything he loved about himself. Seeing as how everything he planned backfired horribly and knowing Hunhow's invasion is a thing of the immediate future, he gifts us his 'sentient destroyer' sword. Like a sword that we have to pay for will make up for everything he did. It's something, I guess. 
 

I mean, what I'm trying to say here is that the orokin where the only true 'bad guys', every other character in this story acts following a somewhat respectable agenda.
The grinner dont want to decay and disappear. The corpus just want some money, the infested don't really know their place since they were created as a weapon and then discarded and left to figure why nobody wants their beauty on their own, Ballas went insane because he had to kill the one person he loved beyond himself. the sentient just want some good old fashioned revenge and expand, Natah just has daddy issues and really bad taste in men, the stalker lost his job and presumably all his friends so he is having a really bad day and we are just some amazingly old teenagers with terrifying powers that happen to be really gulible and easy to influence.

Edited by Eisen
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No. If she was evil, she wouldn't had saved us from sentients AND orokin. I think she's just troubled, and mind-controlled by Hunhow. In the quest Natah she tried to avoid becoming mind-controlled by Hunhow by leaving us to our own devices, that's a clear indication of Hunhow's power, also what happens in Octavia's Anthem is. You can't just ignore that and think she'd be baseline evil. At her worst, she's a puppet of Hunhow as Natah and at her best the caring and loving space-mom Lotus on our side. The fact that our tenno choses to keep Lotus as their mission briefing lady even when she's away instead of having Ordis or Teshin in that role, is indication that our tenno realizes it's because of Hunhow, not because of Lotus.

And saying what she said to Ballas in apostasy proloque can be explained by Ballas being an extension of Hunhow, because he's affiliated with sentients, and thus Hunhow channeling that mind-controlling power through him, amplifying it.

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12 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

This should be in General Discussion, not Feedback.

Agreed. 

 

And no, she's not evil, and not good. There is no true good or evil in warframe as far as I can see. At least not so far. 

There are people/factions who do bad things, from our point of view. But they seem to have reasons for doing that, which viewed from their perspective seem reasonable. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 2018-11-06 at 7:31 PM, Eisen said:

so if I had to guess I would say Natah did that to him.

While it is likely, don’t forget space mom’s mom, or space grandma.

Also “the man in the wall” is something that is a by product of contact with the void (see harrow quest). It still looks like psychotic break. Lua, Tenno and Lotus, all where in the Void.

Natah’s form has a lot of placating symbolism in her design. In her lines as well.

Ballas’ fate is similar to those being infested... or turned into a warframe. Deserved, but it does put a spin on the nature of sentients.

So the new war just might provide a few more suprises. might.

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
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On 2018-11-07 at 1:08 AM, GOOFBALL1 said:

No. If she was evil, she wouldn't had saved us from sentients AND orokin.

I don't think it's that simple. Yeah, she protected the Tenno but Ballas has a good point that pretty much everything she's been directing the Tenno to do has helped keep the solar system fractured and factional which absolutely benefits Hunhow. 

The right answer here seems to be "it's complicated" because that seems to sort of be a running theme DE is trying to get across with Warframe's recent story quests. I don't think Lotus is evil, but she's not just the omnibenevolent spacemom that the game wants you to think she is for the first three quarters of the story either.

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On 2018-11-06 at 11:18 PM, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

Either way no matter the discussion we'll find out eventually. Want a hint? Despite her "switching sides" we still have her as an hologram. If it was to be changed it would have already, most likely.

There is an awful lot of voice acting to be recorded if they were to replace all of the Lotus' lines so (depending on which direction they go with it) it wouldn't surprise me if it took a long time to get everything ready to replace Fauxtus.

I still think The Lotus is the helmet she wore which somehow controlled Natah and that is why it has such a prominent place in our quarters.

EDIT: Might want to add a spoiler tag.

Edited by Shalath
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I think it would be hilarious if we face the Lotus again and she has a million Sentient Kubrows from us cosigning all of our unwanted breeds.

I was doing that earlier. "Are you sure you want to cosign -Name- to the Lotus?"   - Ughh....

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2018-12-30 at 9:27 AM, Xzorn said:

I think it would be hilarious if we face the Lotus again and she has a million Sentient Kubrows from us cosigning all of our unwanted breeds.

I was doing that earlier. "Are you sure you want to cosign -Name- to the Lotus?"   - Ughh....

A surefire way to solidify her villain status.

...children, elderly, animals.

Kubrows suffering the same fate as Ballas.

My daughter would go insane on her.  And they could do it to...just modify nests and feral Kubrows.  Same tech as Survival Missions or pod drops on PoE.

Sentient Kubrow packs running rampant.

It would be genius.  Can I post in feedback about this idea?

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

A surefire way to solidify her villain status.

...children, elderly, animals.

Kubrows suffering the same fate as Ballas.

My daughter would go insane on her.  And they could do it to...just modify nests and feral Kubrows.  Same tech as Survival Missions or pod drops on PoE.

Sentient Kubrow packs running rampant.

It would be genius.  Can I post in feedback about this idea?

No need to have captive kubrow nets for wild Kubrow. How many Lotus consigned Kubrow were there in players trying to get the correct breeds? Lotus didn't just kill Kubrow and Kavat, she did as she has always done, give the cast=offs a second chance, armed them to fight if needed, and take their life. Its all too possible that given Lotus no appearing to be Natah; that we might have to face some of her other children changed as Ballas has been.

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On 2018-11-06 at 6:28 PM, Katinka said:

The nurse points out that she didn't know the woman before the accident and only knows her as she is now, describing her current quirks and personality traits.  In the end the woman decides not to try to become any of her past selves and instead remain as the person she is now, an option she didn't know she had until speaking to the nurse. 
Comparing that to Lotus' situation, Ballas and Hunhow are like the friends and family, telling her of her past as Natah and Marghulis and expecting her to return to one or the other.  Maybe the Tenno may take the role of the nurse (as they are also mostly unaware of the past and only know her in the present) and give her the option to remain as Lotus instead?

This would be worth playing through.

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I'm thinking we may be able to extract margulis from natah's body and put her into a cephelon. Maybe kuva would play a role in that.

The alternative choice could be that natah tries to make us believe she is double-crossing the sentients and that she was our good old space mom all along, we believe her, and she plays it safe by going back to being the lotus, putting on a serious pokerface like nothing ever happened.

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9 hours ago, AronBeck94 said:

I'm thinking we may be able to extract margulis from natah's body and put her into a cephelon. Maybe kuva would play a role in that.

The alternative choice could be that natah tries to make us believe she is double-crossing the sentients and that she was our good old space mom all along, we believe her, and she plays it safe by going back to being the lotus, putting on a serious pokerface like nothing ever happened.

What if I said that kuva is actually a bunch of nano-scale machines, capable  of (amongst other things) repairing damage at the cellular level? And that it could heal Natah, possibly allowing her (and other sentients) to reproduce again after void travel. 

What if I said that Natah being part of Hunhow, could result in all sentients learning of this and they would stop at nothing, to get a source of kuva? And that the best source is inside of a still-functional tower near Cetus? 

What if I said that giving Natah kuva before ensuring her ascendancy amongst the sentients, or their utter destruction, would be a.... troublesome proposition? 

What if I said that separating Margulis from Natah wouldn't result in the return of our space-mom, just an archimedian from an age long gone, that we don't actually remember?

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I don't think it's a simple "Lotus is evil". Natah, prior to meeting us void tainted kids, was evil no doubt. However, after the fall of the Orokin and Natah deciding to take care of us, decided to become the Lotus and "Kill" Natah. I don't think she's necessarily evil because of all the instances where she saves us or worries about our safety. Especially after the War Within. She slightly scolds us for not following her directions to abort the mission when she detected transference interruption around the Kuva Foretress. When the G3 attack you she tells you to run to extraction because they're blocking our connection to her. She also scolds us for not following her direction after defeating them too. And let's not forget that she came all the way to our ship to check on us after The Second Dream. By the time the Apostacy Prologue happened, it seemed like Ballas had done something to her to make her leave with him. IIRC, Ballas waved his hand and Lotus's helmet detached from her seat and her personality slightly changed. After that, she still seemed entranced in The Sacrifice, and I still believe she's under control in the New War trailer. Her sentient frame looks odd too, like she's being held in there against her will.

All of this being said, I really hope we're not going to have to fight and kill her in The New War and any subsequent quests....I don't think I could go through with it. Killing the one person who guided me through so many adventures and cared for my Tenno would just be tough for me.

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