Conclave update suggestions for more enjoyable play

[SonOfSoggy]

Ability cool down, instead of having to search for energy it regenerates on its own at a higher percentage, replace energy orbs with hp/energy orbs [make em purple] lol. 
Increase the Shields & Health by 70-100% increase Weapon damage by 25-50%. Decrease/increase movement some. Also biggest factor of joy factor and trying to keep the skill level matched. There are people who join a match hoping for players they can be easily matched with next thing you know MR1 vs MR25. Seen it too many times and players dont want to play the mode because they are out matched by people who have been playing long enough and majority of the time ends up in people making fun of conclave then just quitting. THIS could be competitive and more fun to play. Only thing Destiny has on Warframe is the pvp. The pvp as it is is hard as ever to learn much more enjoy sometimes because of skill level with out ranking restrictions. New guys come in with no mods with conclave. Higher levels run every match if not some use AIMBOT. Just to get mods and skins and make the game unenjoyable. Ran into two people who openly admitted to it. Also ive cosmetic rewards for matches won or make it to where you have to unlock all the guns for conclave. As in if you own the guns you can only unlock them by standing. IT would fix the whole issue with people not bothering to learn how to aim in the game because most just choose Loki and Arca plasmor combo or Loki and sniper combo or else everyone runs arca plasmor as soon as someone sees an arca plasmor, the rest of the people in match go to it because all is needed is to aim close to them not even focus on target. Make players learn to aim from low rank in conclave. Give them a completely separate Mastery Rank for Conclave so players can be matched equally based on KDA and Matches won. 

These are only suggestions I'm a founder and have been playing the game a while i just feel this would bring more players to be competitive and give them so much more things to do. 
PVP could Also have like a MOBA setting in PVP 4v4 or 5v5 tower defense/offense. Offer mods as purchasable items inside the matches when you have to start at a base to shop. And a level up system just like PVE where it goes to level 30 and before match choose a load out. Again Create the KDA/Matches won ranking and unlockable weapon system so they can not be outmatched.  but can be leveled up by killing minions aka Syndicate characters or faction characters that are at a set LVL for each match. Just some ideas 😄

Edited November 7, 2018 by Killshard

[SevenLetterKWord]

9 minutes ago, Killshard said:

Ability cool down, instead of having to search for energy it regenerates on its own at a higher percentage, replace energy orbs with hp/energy orbs [make em purple] lol. 

To recap, you want cooldowns on abilities (either instead of or in addition to energy requirements, unclear), but then you also want more energy regeneration, which you want because you don't want to have to "search for energy" (even though the orbs always appear in the same exact places), but then you also want to replace energy orbs with health and energy orbs.

9 minutes ago, Killshard said:

Increase the Shields & Health by 70-100% increase Weapon damage by 25-50%.

These requests are in direct conflict with each other.

9 minutes ago, Killshard said:

Decrease/increase movement some.

Yeah I see what's goin' on here
🌿🔥🙂

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

For the better or worst the major problem with conclave is not its mechanics, it's the playerbase. Conclave is an alternative. Warframe's focus, by both the community and developers, is PvE. Sure, we could implement those, and more people would play, but it'd still be mainly ignored in comparison to all of the PvE content. Not that I don't like the occasional sparring and teamplay.

[taiiat]

• there are already Conclave Mods for specing into Regenerating Energy :)
• if you're increasing EHP and the Damage of everything, you're canceling them out and could just use lower values. though i have a feeling select few Exploits in Conclave are why you're looking for higher TTK, and those issues don't represent the majority of Weapons.
• Parkour is already regulated fairly tightly in Conclave. it's clamped down considerably from PvE, if you didn't notice. but it still allows Parkour to be a part of Conclave. thankfully so ofcourse, since Parkour is one of the truly unique things Warframe has to offer.
• every PvE Mission Players play, can be used as practice for Conclave. just as Conclave can be practice for PvE. if Players refuse to learn how to move in the game, nothing will ever change for them.
• judging Skill by K/D and Win Percentage is completely useless. basic ELO thinking only works at the professional level, where everyone is already the best. it doesn't work for casual Players because they aren't good enough to be rated on winning alone. they have to be rated on whether they are playing the game right or not.

 

what would having a MOBA in the game bring to Warframe? what would it improve about Warframe? if you can't answer those sorts of questions, then wholesale copying something from other games doesn't make sense.

[Landwehr]

Honestly what really needs to be done to make PVP an actual thing in warframe....

Scrap everything currently in place.

Make new frames designed specifically for PVP. 

Make PVP arenas/maps for those frames.

Yes, i too would like to use my vauban to lift the entire enemy into the air when they try to capture my flag, but lets be realistic, most abilities for PVE have no place in PVP.

That being said, the ninja movements in this game would make for an amazing PVP platform, 

[Stormdragon]

On 2018-11-12 at 3:44 PM, Landwehr said:

Honestly what really needs to be done to make PVP an actual thing in warframe....

Scrap everything currently in place.

Make new frames designed specifically for PVP. 

Make PVP arenas/maps for those frames.

Yes, i too would like to use my vauban to lift the entire enemy into the air when they try to capture my flag, but lets be realistic, most abilities for PVE have no place in PVP.

Warframe abilities have already been rebalanced to fit a pvp environment without being as gamebreaking and unfair as they are in pve. Following the vauban example, bastille doesn't lift enemies leaving them in place, instead they only get slowed down for 12 seconds after getting in it.

You can find a community made write up in this link if you're curious about how do other abilities work in conclave.

On 2018-11-12 at 3:44 PM, Landwehr said:

That being said, the ninja movements in this game would make for an amazing PVP platform, 

Man, it already does. I think the biggest issue about mobility is that there's no encouragement to make deeper use of it in pve, while it's also a core part of pvp combat. Same applies for other things such as aiming, energy management, positioning, etc. that can be easily trivialized in pve.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Stormdragon

[Ezikeo]

For me the game mode isn't enjoyable due to the fact that every weapon that isn't a sniper rifle isn't viable, melee weapons aren't even used. Also the mobility is too fast and too easily abused, the pace of the game needs to be slowed downed a bit. That's including the time to kill, at the moment the TTK is too low, I believe with a higher TTK, the game mode would benefit more with an approach of tactical gameplay, where the player would be able to react.

I can totally agree when you say the only thing Destiny 2 has over WF is the PvP, so let's make it better than Destiny 2.

[ant99999]

1 час назад, Ezikeo сказал:

every weapon that isn't a sniper rifle isn't viable

That's not true. I've rarely see any players using snipers. Most of them prefer auto rifles, Ignis or Arca Plasmor.

1 час назад, Ezikeo сказал:

melee weapons aren't even used

Well, I guess you haven't experienced the Conclave enough. Death from a nikana or a polearm is a common thing.

1 час назад, Ezikeo сказал:

Also the mobility is too fast and too easily abused, the pace of the game needs to be slowed downed a bit. 

What do you mean by 'easily abused'? Using bullet jumps and aim glides to gain advantage over an enemy in speed and altitude is a feature, not an abuse. This can even be used in PvE (though no one seem to know about it).

1 час назад, Ezikeo сказал:

That's including the time to kill, at the moment the TTK is too low, I believe with a higher TTK, the game mode would benefit more with an approach of tactical gameplay, where the player would be able to react.

You know, in reality, increasing TTK (which is by no mean too low, especially when an enemy is capable of bullet jumping) would actually make snipers a more viable option, which was your first point.

As for time to react, you actually have plenty of it, granted that you use bullet jumps. You even have more of it than in any other shooter coming in mind. (Except of course you are dealing with some MLG-level-720-no-scope Snipetron user, but judging by your profile stats, that's highly unlikely).

1 час назад, Ezikeo сказал:

the only thing Destiny 2 has over WF is the PvP

I've played Destiny 2 PvP. It is as ordinary as possible class based shooter with simple abilities and low weapon types variety. What it has 'over' Warframe's fast paced shooter/slasher hybrid is a mystery for me.

[Ezikeo]

46 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

That's not true. I've rarely see any players using snipers. Most of them prefer auto rifles, Ignis or Arca Plasmor.

Well, I guess you haven't experienced the Conclave enough. Death from a nikana or a polearm is a common thing.

What do you mean by 'easily abused'? Using bullet jumps and aim glides to gain advantage over an enemy in speed and altitude is a feature, not an abuse. This can even be used in PvE (though no one seem to know about it).

You know, in reality, increasing TTK (which is by no mean too low, especially when an enemy is capable of bullet jumping) would actually make snipers a more viable option, which was your first point.

As for time to react, you actually have plenty of it, granted that you use bullet jumps. You even have more of it than in any other shooter coming in mind. (Except of course you are dealing with some MLG-level-720-no-scope Snipetron user, but judging by your profile stats, that's highly unlikely).

I've played Destiny 2 PvP. It is as ordinary as possible class based shooter with simple abilities and low weapon types variety. What it has 'over' Warframe's fast paced shooter/slasher hybrid is a mystery for me.

I'm not even going to bother to retort everything you stated. Your logic with increased TTK making sniper rifles more viable is already flawed, at the moment taking a bullet to the head from a strong sniper rifle is a 1 tap kill, which would make the person that got the first shot off win. Increasing the TTK, would make sniper rifles weaker, because having to hit someone 2 or more times adds time to the kill and if the sniper player was going against a player with an auto rifle, the person with the AR would have time to react and not just get gimped by 1 shot. I'm not really sure how that logic flew over your head. It kinda shows your ignorances on core mechanics and logic.

In all honesty, there is a reason why this mode isn't popular. I've made my suggestions and if the mechanics don't change soon, expect to keep sitting in those 20 min queues.

[ant99999]

Let me try to explain the logic behind my points. I don't state that snipers would become stronger if TTK went up, no, they would become weaker just as you wrote. However what will become even weaker is auto rifles.

The process of scoring hits with a sniper (if you are a regular player, not an inhuman from youtube montage) comes down to catching an enemy on his mistakes. Let you slow down, you get a headshot, that's it. The more the fight lasts the more mistakes a player makes, so it becomes easier to kill him eventually.

With auto rifles the rules are quite the opposite. You have to land a lot of hits and have to constantly keep an enemy in your reticle. That's why the one who's shooting is more in a disadvantage than the one who's being hit. If a player with an auto rifle fails initial engagement and enters a dogfight, he is more likely to loose than the one with a sniper (just as you said btw, you have more time to react on the enemy).

Hope this will make my reasoning more clear.

As for reasons for low popularity, yes they exist, but thaey are not what half of the threads out there are about. Lack of server browser, p2p connection, high skill threshold and vocal minority of haters here on the forums, that's it.

[Ezikeo]

7 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Let me try to explain the logic behind my points. I don't state that snipers would become stronger if TTK went up, no, they would become weaker just as you wrote. However what will become even weaker is auto rifles.

The process of scoring hits with a sniper (if you are a regular player, not an inhuman from youtube montage) comes down to catching an enemy on his mistakes. Let you slow down, you get a headshot, that's it. The more the fight lasts the more mistakes a player makes, so it becomes easier to kill him eventually.

With auto rifles the rules are quite the opposite. You have to land a lot of hits and have to constantly keep an enemy in your reticle. That's why the one who's shooting is more in a disadvantage than the one who's being hit. If a player with an auto rifle fails initial engagement and enters a dogfight, he is more likely to loose than the one with a sniper (just as you said btw, you have more time to react on the enemy).

Hope this will make my reasoning more clear.

As for reasons for low popularity, yes they exist, but thaey are not what half of the threads out there are about. Lack of server browser, p2p connection, high skill threshold and vocal minority of haters here on the forums, that's it.

That literally makes no sense, I am not going to bother to explain anymore after this. So sniper rifles with a low ttk mode, will always beat an auto rifle, if it only takes 1 hit for the sniper rifle to kill. However with an increase to ttk, a shot with a sniper rifle requiring 2 or more shots for a kill will always lose to an AR which has a higher fire rate which makes an AR stronger in a high ttk game, given if both players are equally skilled. This is how, if not all shooter games are balanced. An advantage of a sniper rifle is range and damage and with how WF PvP is at the moment, sniper rifles are the only weapon you need to win with due to low ttk and insane movement - you literally can't get punished for playing with a low fire rate weapon when you miss, due to the fact you can always run away and reposition, because ridiculous mobility. All you literally have to do is play a frame with stealth with a sniper rifle and gimp your opponent without them being able to do anything. I'm not sure why you don't understand that logic. And I don't understand why part of the community thinks that WF PvP being a jumping simulator where you just 1 shot everything is a good thing, clearly the lack of population speaks for itself.

One low population has nothing to do with player to player connections, Destiny 2 does not have dedicated PvP servers nor server browsing and it's extremely popular. And the mechanics and gunplay are amazing and it's extremely similar to WF. And the game pace feels good.

Two don't lie to yourself and pretend WF has a "high skill threshold", you probably meant to say high skill cap, but no it doesn't. It has a high learning curve due to learning movement, mods and the frame itself. Running around and 1 shotting players before they can react, takes 0 skills.

Three the reason why PvP is so unpopular is due to the fact that mechanics aren't being changed to fit the mode. Long range weapons with high damage are too rewarding and you add high mobility and movement, you literally just made every other weapon obsolete. And it you are dying to a polearm/nikana or any melee, you're just being outplayed. Because melee weapons have no place in conclave at the moment, due to low ttk, other than maybe a block/reflect. And please don't bring up Arca plasmor again, everyone that plays conclave knows that the weapon is bugged and has no bullet drop, making it able to sometimes 1 tap a player from long range. See where the meta is going?

Hopefully the mode changes soon for the better, if not I'll just go back to PvE where it's good with instant queues and you can go back to waiting 30+ mins for a queue to just play your jumping simulator, because you rather have a game mode catered to the minority.

[ant99999]

First of all please note, that if you don't want to answer, you are not obliged to do it. My aim here is not to provoke you on your next reply, but to point out what I think is wrong in your statements. Note also that I often don't even speak directly to you, my replies should be considered addressed to the Conclave community in general. My apologies if you take this personally.

I won't reply on your every statement here this time, as they are generally the same as they were before. So instead I will comment of the remaining flaws in your argumentation.

1. Destiny and Warframe PvP comparison. In short: in Destiny a player and a PvE enemy are generally the same. Both are slow moving predictable targets, almost always on the ground with limited mobility. In Warframe they are direct opposites, slow PvE mobs vs fast and agile players who are airborne half of the time. That's why with the same mechanics PvE and PvP in Warframe feel different. For more detailed explanations I advise you to read some topics on similar sibjects.

2. Misunderstanding about what weapons behave better. I understand it only now, but probably the reason for this is you basically being in practice mode now (forgot the name for this), so you didn't actually face skilled players yet, that's why you think that the gameplay with snipers is dealing with stationary targets. In reality it is not. So when I say 'high skill threshold' I mean exactly this, if it wasn't the case, half of the topics here wouldn't exist.

3. Melee. I hope the video will explain this better than I will.

Of course real gameplay with melee is more diverse.

[Stormdragon]

20 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

I'm not even going to bother to retort everything you stated. Your logic with increased TTK making sniper rifles more viable is already flawed, at the moment taking a bullet to the head from a strong sniper rifle is a 1 tap kill, which would make the person that got the first shot off win. Increasing the TTK, would make sniper rifles weaker, because having to hit someone 2 or more times adds time to the kill and if the sniper player was going against a player with an auto rifle, the person with the AR would have time to react and not just get gimped by 1 shot. I'm not really sure how that logic flew over your head. It kinda shows your ignorances on core mechanics and logic.

The ttk of automatic rifles is balanced around 0.7 seconds assuming all of your shots hit, and there are players skilled enough to get kills nearly on that time.

Longer ttk makes everything weaker and increases the skill required to get kills. I'm pretty sure that keeping track of an enemy for 2 seconds is harder than doing it for 1, or that landing 4 shots on an enemy is easier than landing 6, specially when we add warframe's mobility to the mix.

About snipers being able to one tap you, you're most likely playing a light frame or a medium with -ehp mods since most of them need 1 headshot + 1 body shot to kill mediums or tanks.

I won't deny that snipers need a change, but it should be done mainly by somehow reducing their fire rate so missing a shot becomes more punishing.

10 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

And I don't understand why part of the community thinks that WF PvP being a jumping simulator where you just 1 shot everything is a good thing, clearly the lack of population speaks for itself.

They see it as "jumping simulator" because of 4 big reasons:

-There's no actual reason to ever use mobility in pve unless you want to go from point A to B as fast as possible.

-Movement in combat isn't needed thanks to damage reduction powers and how easily these can be kept up.

-Enemies are slow and barely ever move vertically.

-The few fast enemies with vertical movement will die to constant aoe spam, removing the need to aim for them.

10 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

Two don't lie to yourself and pretend WF has a "high skill threshold", you probably meant to say high skill cap, but no it doesn't. It has a high learning curve due to learning movement, mods and the frame itself. Running around and 1 shotting players before they can react, takes 0 skills.

If it's so easy and takes 0 skill, why aren't you doing it? Your conclave rank is still neutral and i could assume you haven't disabled the Recruit Conditioning box to see how things actually are.

10 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

Three the reason why PvP is so unpopular is due to the fact that mechanics aren't being changed to fit the mode. Long range weapons with high damage are too rewarding and you add high mobility and movement, you literally just made every other weapon obsolete.

Low mobility can be used to make long range high damage weapons struggle. If the enemy can hit you even when you move as fast as possible, then the best choice is to at least make them need more shots to kill you in order to increase your options to fight back.

10 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

And it you are dying to a polearm/nikana or any melee, you're just being outplayed. Because melee weapons have no place in conclave at the moment, due to low ttk, other than maybe a block/reflect

Melee has its own tools such as frontal damage reduction, damage multipliers on certain hits, gap closing movements, impair on a hit of certain combo, knockdown on slam and in a combo as well. It's a really viable playstyle and some players excel at it.

10 hours ago, Ezikeo said:

And please don't bring up Arca plasmor again, everyone that plays conclave knows that the weapon is bugged and has no bullet drop, making it able to sometimes 1 tap a player from long range. See where the meta is going?

Arca plasmor falloff has already been fixed, and even with the bug it was a 2 hits to kill weapon and could get up to 3 against shielded enemies (like a + shield frost prime)

Edited November 20, 2018 by Stormdragon

[Ezikeo]

3 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

The ttk of automatic rifles is balanced around 0.7 seconds assuming all of your shots hit, and there are players skilled enough to get kills nearly on that time.

Longer ttk makes everything weaker and increases the skill required to get kills. I'm pretty sure that keeping track of an enemy for 2 seconds is harder than doing it for 1, or that landing 4 shots on an enemy is easier than landing 6, specially when we add warframe's mobility to the mix.

About snipers being able to one tap you, you're most likely playing a light frame or a medium with -ehp mods since most of them need 1 headshot + 1 body shot to kill mediums or tanks.

I won't deny that snipers need a change, but it should be done mainly by somehow reducing their fire rate so missing a shot becomes more punishing.

They see it as "jumping simulator" because of 4 big reasons:

-There's no actual reason to ever use mobility in pve unless you want to go from point A to B as fast as possible.

-Movement in combat isn't needed thanks to damage reduction powers and how easily these can be kept up.

-Enemies are slow and barely ever move vertically.

-The few fast enemies with vertical movement will die to constant aoe spam, removing the need to aim for them.

If it's so easy and takes 0 skill, why aren't you doing it? Your conclave rank is still neutral and i could assume you haven't disabled the Recruit Conditioning box to see how things actually are.

Low mobility can be used to make long range high damage weapons struggle. If the enemy can hit you even when you move as fast as possible, then the best choice is to at least make them need more shots to kill you in order to increase your options to fight back.

Melee has its own tools such as frontal damage reduction, damage multipliers on certain hits, gap closing movements, impair on a hit of certain combo, knockdown on slam and in a combo as well. It's a really viable playstyle and some players excel at it.

Arca plasmor falloff has already been fixed, and even with the bug it was a 2 hits to kill weapon and could get up to 3 against shielded enemies (like a + shield frost prime)

If you are going to follow me around and stalk me on the forums. At least give feedback or suggestions to the OP, because coming into the forums just to "try" and prove me wrong is futile, contributing to a post would be more constructive. I just skimmed through everything you said and honestly, logically you make no sense. So I'm going to ignore any comments you make from now.

[Stormdragon]

29 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

If you are going to follow me around and stalk me on the forums. At least give feedback or suggestions to the OP.

Not stalking anyone, if you skimmed through my comments you'd realize that i lurk this subforum most of the time and it's usually commenting about suggestions i see, be it to improve them or to explain why these would not fit the gameplay of warframe.

29 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

because coming into the forums just to "try" and prove me wrong is futile, contributing to a post would be more constructive.

So you call me to be constructive while all you have done in this thread is spread misinformation (such "only snipers are viable in pvp") based on a reduced gameplay experience and most likely on assumptions too.

37 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

I just skimmed through everything you said and honestly, logically you make no sense.

Perhaps not for your logic which seems to be based mainly on theory, but after a fair bit of kills and time spent in conclave you can be sure it makes sense when taken to the practice.

37 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

So I'm going to ignore any comments you make from now.

That's a lovely way to escape from a discussion when your arguments have been proven wrong and you have no way to defend them but still too proud to accept such situation. 

[Ezikeo]

1 minute ago, Stormdragon said:

Not stalking anyone, if you skimmed through my comments you'd realize that i lurk this subforum most of the time and it's usually commenting about suggestions i see, be it to improve them or to explain why these would not fit the gameplay of warframe.

So you call me to be constructive while all you have done in this thread is spread misinformation (such "only snipers are viable in pvp") based on a reduced gameplay experience and most likely on assumptions too.

Perhaps not for your logic which seems to be based mainly on theory, but after a fair bit of kills and time spent in conclave you can be sure it makes sense when taken to the practice.

That's a lovely way to escape from a discussion when your arguments have been proven wrong and you have no way to defend them but still too proud to accept such situation. 

Please stop @me or quoting me, there isn't a ignore feature on the forums. I honestly can't exert anymore energy to reply to your nonsense. And no I am not spreading misinformation, the general community knows sniper rifles in conclave is overpowered and the only thing that's really viable, you are just delusional. 

[Stormdragon]

54 minutes ago, Ezikeo said:

And no I am not spreading misinformation, the general community knows sniper rifles in conclave is overpowered and the only thing that's really viable, you are just delusional. 

After reading your post about arca plasmor being bugged (despite the bug being fixed when fortuna was released) and still yet to see any kind of backup to your point of snipers being the only viable weapons, I beg to differ and here are a few examples of why:

Spoiler

Stug example

Cernos example

Automatic weapons example 1

Automatic Example 2

Beam + Auto + melee example

Semi-Auto secondary example

And those are only gifs from mine, a random player who's not even close to the best ones around.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Stormdragon