Next Open World: Does Lightning Strike Thrice?

[JohnKable]

I think there will be more open world stuff coming. But at the same time i dont think it will take the same as much.

They didnt make only PoE and Fortuna in the last 2 years. They built tech, alot of tech, improvement to graphics aswell tools to create open world maps in a decent time frame.
Fortuna is very likely much bigger, much deeper and much better than PoE and it took less than a year to build up. So i really think we can expect railjack, 2 quests, Jupiter revamp, a third open world map and more in the next 12 months.

dont forget they are finally fixing and rebalancing alot of old stuff (melee 3.0 for example) and constantly upgrading visuals and improving performance. its not like they did only fortuna since PoE.

Sure, from a veteran perspective it could be seen as a content drought. But we received so much good stuff that will last in the long term atually.
A visual upgrade is something that lasts long term, same goes for a better UI, new melee system etc etc

[Tellakey]

44 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Well when you put it like that, EVERYTHING gets boring after a while. There is no game ever made that constantly excites you time after time, whenever you fire it up (unless you want to give me any examples to the contrary).

How are DE supposed to meet those sort of expectations...or ANY developer, come to that?

 

As for Fortuna...we've known about it for a good while now. We have a good idea what to expect and are just waiting for it to drop. We're well past "peak hype", so we shouldn't be feeling like kids waiting for Christmas Day or whatever.

The trick is not to find a secret, endlessly fun game mod, what with, as you mentioned, everything getting boring eventually. That said, I think the trick to Warframe is its ever-expanding list of activities. No one feature is the main focus of the game, everything is. DE brainstorms, time and again, a new mechanic, fits it into the core game, expands on it a little and moves on. Rinse repeat. The exception to that, of course, is the bread and butter of the game - the Frames and their equipment.

There is a reason DE hasn't expanded on Archwing for the last few years. They know the majority of the player-base is not hooked, so exhausting resources on it would be a waste of time. Instead of expanding Archwing they'll be integrating an improved version of it into Railjack, which is another iteration of the aforementioned brainstorming. But I bet you if DE decides to put full emphasis on Railjack for the next 3 years the players will tire of it real soon.

I just hope this wouldn't become the case with open worlds. Sure, I would love an open tile on every planet, some of which I dream of, but if it means derailing development on everything else and limiting creativity then I would say just do 3 open worlds and move on.

Still biting my nails in anticipation Fortuna 😄

Edited November 7, 2018 by Tellakey

[SenorClipClop]

6 hours ago, Tellakey said:

The open world module drastically slows down development on other mechanics (though this may be up for debate).

I'll debate that. While Fortuna has been in development, we've recieved far more additions than we have before: quests, modes (Onslaught and Arbitrations), several new frames, many fixes and balances, more frame updates than ever before, and a ton of cosmetic additions.

[Tellakey]

21 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'll debate that. While Fortuna has been in development, we've recieved far more additions than we have before: quests, modes (Onslaught and Arbitrations), several new frames, many fixes and balances, more frame updates than ever before, and a ton of cosmetic additions.

• We've had 2 prologues & the Sacrifice - an amazing experience but empty when it comes to content.
• EOS - a rehash of any other mission but with a little twist.
• Arbitration - see EOS, which, btw, I'm not unhappy with, but it is what it is.
• 2 New frames with Garuda incoming - this year and last year have had the least amount of frames, but that's okay.
• Fixes and Balances - fair enough. Partially to blame for the drought, but not unnecessary. That said, DE always fixes stuff.
• Melee 3.0 - f yea!
• Frame Fighter - a side project with zero incentive to play. Appreciated, but again, not exactly what we want.
• New cosmetics - I don't know how to measure that. But regardless, cosmetics do not contribute to your playtime that much, therefore invalid as content.

I'm sure I missed something. Anywho, as you can see, while there wasn't a technical drought of content, there was a drought of meaningful content, anything to provide veterans with an incentive to sink more hours into the game. Add to all that the fact that DE is more successful than ever, which would imply a better workforce. Also, DE themselves have acknowledged the content drought in multiple posts. If I weren't too lazy I would have linked them in here.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Tellakey

[Gerdaro]

I think every possible world/moon/satellite will get its own version of open world in time.

And after that (if not before), we're definetely going to a new System, probably the Tau system, where we fight the Sentients at their own backyard.

[Kaotyke]

Considering everything we know so far, we already have the next Open World announced: Railjack.

Although... I would call it "Open Solar System".

[Tellakey]

18 minutes ago, Gerdaro said:

I think every possible world/moon/satellite will get its own version of open world in time.

And after that (if not before), we're definetely going to a new System, probably the Tau system, where we fight the Sentients at their own backyard.

That would take more than a decade so I doubt it, unless DE is very, very committed. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Please post your thoughts 😄

honestly, I see no reason they can't give every planet an open world, though I think the most interesting worlds will be Mars, Ceres and Eris. the only problem is that it comes at the cost of less content in the short term and a subsequent meltdown of the community. it depends on what DE want to do. personally I think they should take a step back: rework some frames, revisit older content and take their time coming up with the concept of the next open world. maybe rebalance Riven Dispositions and a few other things if enough people think it's necessary. spit out the occasional weapon every so often to keep players in the short term.

everyone is going to be distracted by Fortuna, that's the best time for DE to work on a few things and slip them by us unnoticed.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 hour ago, Tellakey said:

• We've had 2 prologues & the Sacrifice - an amazing experience but empty when it comes to content.
• EOS - a rehash of any other mission but with a little twist.
• Arbitration - see EOS, which, btw, I'm not unhappy with, but it is what it is.
• 2 New frames with Garuda incoming - this year and last year have had the least amount of frames, but that's okay.
• Fixes and Balances - fair enough. Partially to blame for the drought, but not unnecessary. That said, DE always fixes stuff.
• Melee 3.0 - f yea!
• Frame Fighter - a side project with zero incentive to play. Appreciated, but again, not exactly what we want.
• New cosmetics - I don't know how to measure that. But regardless, cosmetics do not contribute to your playtime that much, therefore invalid as content.

I'm sure I missed something. Anywho, as you can see, while there wasn't a technical drought of content, there was a drought of meaningful content, anything to provide veterans with an incentive to sink more hours into the game. Add to all that the fact that DE is more successful than ever, which would imply a better workforce. Also, DE themselves have acknowledged the content drought in multiple posts. If I weren't too lazy I would have linked them in here.

That just looks like a large list to me.

You can also go ahead and add on a huge new open world to that list?

Looks pretty good to me?

[SneakyErvin]

Since Fortuna seems to be taking the right step i.e letting us stay in the zone and keep doing bounties I think we will see a third open world with even better mechanics (also implemented on the previous two). I wouldnt be surprised if the next open world is set in the Tau sector or we get one on Eris. 

I'll just have to wait and see what Fortuna actually brings in order to get a real sense of what has changed for the better or not.

[WarBaby2]

12 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

That would take more than a decade so I doubt it, unless DE is very, very committed. 

True... and I doubt it from a lore perspective too. First, not all planets are suitable for an open world to begin with (Saturn, Jupiter), then there are probably planets that are totally in the hands of one of the factions. Also: Both open worlds have been styled after an enemy faction and their counterpart, so realistically, I only see two or three more coming, with infested being the next contenders. For Tau, I agree that there could be an open world there, but I doubt it will come within the next couple of years... probably after the New War is done and Railjack has been implemented in earnest (meaning systemwide).

[Tellakey]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

That just looks like a large list to me.

You can also go ahead and add on a huge new open world to that list?

Looks pretty good to me?

 

Are you a new player? Honest question.

There are two factors one must understand about the content drought:

1. It exists only for veteras or those who have already experienced the entire game.
2. It is a drought relatively to previous years. 

If you compare Warframe to most other online games then sure, this list might look impressive, but if you look at it from the perspective of a long-term Warframe player, these are meager in comparison to what we're used to. They might be numerous in number, but little in content.

As I mentioned, The Sacrifice had nothing to offer but its cinematic experience and lore. Compare that to the two previous cinematic quests; one had offered us Focus, an entire system to work toward, and the other introduced Rivens, around which an entire market revolves.

EOS - offers nothing new but two weapons, a frame and niche mods. Most people would already EXP farm on Bere or farm Eidolons for Focus.

Arbitrations - now this one is actually awesome. While it does nothing too original, it offers vets a new way to earn Endo. It may not be "new" content, but it changes enough in the game to be welcome.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Tellakey

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

2 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Are you a new player? Honest question.

There are two factors one must understand about the content drought:

1. It exists only for veteras or those who have already experienced the entire game.
2. It is a drought relatively to previous years. 

If you compare Warframe to most other online games then sure, this list might look impressive, but if you look at it from the perspective of a long-term Warframe player, these are meager in comparison to what we're used to. They might be numerous in number, but little in content.

As I mentioned, The Sacrifice had nothing to offer but its cinematic experience and lore. Compare that to the two previous cinematic quests; one had offered us Focus, an entire system to work toward, and the other introduced Rivens, around which an entire market revolves.

EOS - offers nothing new but two weapons, a frame and niche mods. Most people would already EXP farm on Bere or farm Eidolons for Focus.

Arbitrations - now this one is actually awesome. While it does nothing too original, it offers vets a new way to earn Endo. It may not be "new" content, but it changes enough in the game to be welcome.

I'm not new - but I imagine i'm too new to be in the entitled 'cater for us veterans' club.

I know many 'Veterans' who are very happy with the amount of content.

However I am sure there are people, like yourself who have wrung ever last mastery point, maxxed every mod etc. Good for you.

However as a business model - they cannot cater solely for you. Bringing in new players, and therefore new money is a priority for the game to survive.

That said, fortuna will give new content to 'Veterans' and bring in new players (much like POE). So it will give you something to do and support the game. 

What is bad about that? Isn't DE's fault that there are people who have literally squeezed the life from the game.

[S.Dust]

I don't think every planet needs one maybe some core planets. An infested world feels like a must.

[Zoretor]

I like it that DE is making these open worlds. Vets, in any game, will always consume all new content a.s.a.p. Same for youtubers/streamers and the like.
I don't care. I consider myself a vet, and that's irrelevant to me. If you want to get bored of new content on day 2 of it coming out, that's your pace. Suck it up.There are other games to play out there besides Warframe, also.

PoE has brought Warframe into a new light, revealing how many facets of the mechanics of the game work so much better when given wide open spaces. If DE started from scratch today, I'm sure they'd go with open world areas from day 1 (except where it doesn't make sense). After all, they went with randomly generated tilesets bacause they're "economic", program, resource and asset-wise. But there's no doubt in my mind that PoE, and whatever future open worlds, fit perfectly with the gameplay, and should definately be expanded upon.

To me, implementing open world areas has convinced me that pre-made, handcrafted tilesets would work without changing the feel of the game at all, instead of procedurally generated ones. There are tilesets that would still make sense for them to be proc-gen though, such as the Void (warping of space-time), the Infested ships and Derelict (constantly re-arranging themselves as someone mentioned), the Corpus Shipwreck tileset on Europa (being a maze of ship scraps and tunnels) and the Grineer Asteroid tileset (being a maze of tunnels in asteroids).
Using existing assets they could simply make a static layout that made more sense than running through the same hallway 3 times in the same misison, with it always curving in the same way, and always having the same details... To me that's ridiculous and immersion-cracking.
At the very least I'd like DE to remove tile duplication on tileset generation.

So, using existing tileset assets:
- Corpus Gas City layout would be interesing, with possible archwing deployment from one structure to another. Neptune could use a modified version of this tileset, just with a few different aesthetic tweaks, as it's also mostly gas.
- Ceres Shipyards could have an interesting layout as well, also with minor archwinging between some structures.
- Ships: Grineer Galleons and Corpus Obelisks should be static and pre-designed. Maybe with a few minor proc-gen tiles or details. I suspect we'll see something like this with Railjack.
- The Kuva Fortress being pre-tailor-made has a lot of potential for more interesting movement/parkour dynamics, and could have more seamless and relevant archwing integration. Yes, it's already pretty interestng in the parkour dyanmics department, but still, could be better. Besides that, it's a really awesome, immersive tileset that I feel would strongly benefit from being hand-crafted.
- Lua, like the Kuva Fortress, could definately also benefit from being hand-crafted, and implementing some archwing.

Lastly (but not least-ly):
- Corpus Outpost tileset could be touched up with the new Corpus materials and assets, and relocated to be the unique tileset for Pluto. It just works. Hand-crafted, of course. Remove it completely from Venus, which kinda clashes now with what the Vallis aesthetic. My own little touch would be to make it just a tad bit darker.

Yeah... then I'd be finally satisfied with Warframe's "sense of place". That's the thing, these hand-crafted open areas offer that feeling. You probably don't care, 'coz you just want to farm for that resource or new weapon or whatever, but it is important.

Otherwise, why not just have all of Warframe be played in smooth tunnels and rooms like the simulacrum and be done with it?

[Tellakey]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

I'm not new - but I imagine i'm too new to be in the entitled 'cater for us veterans' club.

I know many 'Veterans' who are very happy with the amount of content.

However I am sure there are people, like yourself who have wrung ever last mastery point, maxxed every mod etc. Good for you.

However as a business model - they cannot cater solely for you. Bringing in new players, and therefore new money is a priority for the game to survive.

That said, fortuna will give new content to 'Veterans' and bring in new players (much like POE). So it will give you something to do and support the game. 

What is bad about that? Isn't DE's fault that there are people who have literally squeezed the life from the game.

Do I hear a hint of disdain for the term 'veteran'? It is simply descriptive. 

Sure you know many vets who're happy with the content. There's anything from everything.

I have not, actually, wrung up every last mastery point, nor have I maxed every mod, etc... But these should not be a priority just like collecting every flag in AC games shouldn't. I actually don't sink too much time on the game on a regular basis. I have over 2000 hours which have been accrued over 5 years. I reckon that's reasonable.

DE does well to cater to both veteran and new players, but sometimes they forget to accommodate people once they actually decide to stay in the game. What's the point of amassing new player if they're gonna quit after a few weeks? DE would be smart to not forget their actual fans. And again, they've recognized the content drought themselves. 

Finally, I think DE, like any developer, would be happy to have their product's life squeezed by their customers. Now they need to maintain their clients' interest with additional content. It's simple economics. What's wrong with that?

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

I have not, actually, wrung up every last mastery point, nor have I maxed every mod, etc... But these should not be a priority just like collecting every flag in AC games shouldn't. I actually don't sink too much time on the game on a regular basis. I have over 2000 hours which have been accrued over 5 years. I reckon that's reasonable.

That is reasonable.

3 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

 

Sure you know many vets who're happy with the content. There's anything from everything.

DE does well to cater to both veteran and new players, but sometimes they forget to accommodate people once they actually decide to stay in the game. What's the point of amassing new player if they're gonna quit after a few weeks? DE would be smart to not forget their actual fans. And again, they've recognized the content drought themselves. 

 

You essentially counter yourself here - 'Actual fans' come in all shapes in sizes, most probably being very excited and hyped for fortuna. There are people who have played this game as founders and do not claim to have the issues you have.

Point is, as you have conceded yourself - view of the game is subjective. Yet your title of the thread suggests an objective opinion that 'Fortuna' is bad but you haven't even touched? How do you know it's bad? Clairvoyance? 

My issue with the thread is your Clickbait statement title - then rolling back saying 'it's just your opinion' and as usual throw the word Veteran in there to give yourself some weight.

Clearer?

 

[Tellakey]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

That is reasonable.

You essentially counter yourself here - 'Actual fans' come in all shapes in sizes, most probably being very excited and hyped for fortuna. There are people who have played this game as founders and do not claim to have the issues you have.

Point is, as you have conceded yourself - view of the game is subjective. Yet your title of the thread suggests an objective opinion that 'Fortuna' is bad but you haven't even touched? How do you know it's bad? Clairvoyance? 

My issue with the thread is your Clickbait statement title - then rolling back saying 'it's just your opinion' and as usual throw the word Veteran in there to give yourself some weight.

Clearer?

 

I have no idea how you've concluded that my opinion of Fortuna is negative. I'm just as hyped as everyone else. And how is my title clickbait??? O_O I don't much care for the title of veteran short of using it as a descriptive. This is yet another case of forum straw-manning.  

Edited November 7, 2018 by Tellakey

[SneakyErvin]

21 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

Do I hear a hint of disdain for the term 'veteran'? It is simply descriptive. 

Sure you know many vets who're happy with the content. There's anything from everything.

I have not, actually, wrung up every last mastery point, nor have I maxed every mod, etc... But these should not be a priority just like collecting every flag in AC games shouldn't. I actually don't sink too much time on the game on a regular basis. I have over 2000 hours which have been accrued over 5 years. I reckon that's reasonable.

DE does well to cater to both veteran and new players, but sometimes they forget to accommodate people once they actually decide to stay in the game. What's the point of amassing new player if they're gonna quit after a few weeks? DE would be smart to not forget their actual fans. And again, they've recognized the content drought themselves. 

Finally, I think DE, like any developer, would be happy to have their product's life squeezed by their customers. Now they need to maintain their clients' interest with additional content. It's simple economics. What's wrong with that?

The problem is that they simply cant make too much that is only for "veterans". It doesnt work with free-to-play games like it does with sub-based or B2P games. They need to constantly have newer players in mind first and foremost, that is just the nature of the monetary path of free-to-play games. The only cases where this isnt true are in games such as DCUO where you pay for expansions etc. And I dont think it would fly well with anyone if they had to buy content patches.

This year there have been two "veteran" releases for WF, both ESO and Arbitrations, the rest have been somewhere in between. These pieces of content have also brought replay value unlike the questline of previous years. SD, TWW, Octavia, Harrow etc have been one time play through content addition, adding nothing real to the game, adding even less in the long run than this year has provided through ESO and Arbis. They might have looked bigger, but only as a first play through thing, after that they bring litterally zero to the game.

The list mentioned in the post further up is pretty big considering it doesnt even cover a full year yet. When you add it all together by the end of the year it will be as big if not bigger than the previous on. The content draught is really only a cause of a content shift, with focus placed on fortuna for the most part and its Q4 release. The releases have still been pretty good considering all that. And the Fortuna work isnt the only thing they've been busy with, there is plenty of other stuff for next year.

Looking back at 2018 when everything has been released we will see the opposite of a content draught. We will still however see questionable decisions regarding how they decided to portion it all out over the year.

edit: And I've played a massive amount of hours since I started in october/november last year. I'm at close to 2000h and I still have alot of things to do in the game.

Edited November 7, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

I have no idea how you've concluded that my opinion of Fortuna is negative. I'm just as hyped as everyone else. And how is my title clickbait??? O_O This is yet another case of forum straw-manning.

'Third time's a charm' - the clickbait title you have chosen, suggests that the Third open world area will be the one that works and by implication the first 2 (POE and the Unreleased Fortuna)  Were unsuccessful.

That's where I got it from. If you didn't mean this your title is completely unrelated to the saying and I suggest you familiarize yourself with it (here is a link for you: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/third_time's_a_charm)

However I suspect you do know what it means - and despite: 

3 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

I have no idea how you've concluded that my opinion of Fortuna is negative. I'm just as hyped as everyone else. And how is my title clickbait??? O_O This is yet another case of forum straw-manning.

You still chose the negative title to draw people in.

So Clickbait or ignorance. 

[Tellakey]

Just now, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

'Third time's a charm' - the clickbait title you have chosen, suggests that the Third open world area will be the one that works and by implication the first 2 (POE and the Unreleased Fortuna)  Were unsuccessful.

That's where I got it from. If you didn't mean this your title is completely unrelated to the saying and I suggest you familiarize yourself with it (here is a link for you: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/third_time's_a_charm)

However I suspect you do know what it means - and despite: 

You still chose the negative title to draw people in.

So Clickbait or ignorance. 

1

Ah... no, that's clearly not what the title means if you read the actual post XD

It might be ignorance on my part, though I'm not sure.

What I meant to say with the title is to ask whether the open world module can succeed in drawing our collective hype a third time, or whether this repetitive module is going to wear us down eventually. I can see how you can extrapolate a negative opinion from that, but the actual content of the OP clears any possible negativity, I think.

[lukinu_u]

In my opinion, the perfect feature would be some kind of modular openworld, similar to how tileset works on regular missions. Some really huge tiles connected together to make a bigger world with less work and probably do smaller tiles for caves. This would actually give incentives to actually explore each time you go to the place.

It's probably not easy to do without obvious separation between tiles but maybe some environnement types such as desert on Phobos or ocean on Uranus can allow this more easily.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

Ah... no, that's clearly not what the title means if you read the actual post XD

It might be ignorance on my part, though I'm not sure.

What I meant to say with the title is to ask whether the open world module can succeed in drawing our collective hype a third time, or whether this repetitive module is going to wear us down eventually. I can see how you can extrapolate a negative opinion from that, but the actual content of the OP clears any possible negativity, I think.

Fair enough then - my apologies.

Title is misleading though.

[Tellakey]

Just now, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Fair enough then - my apologies.

Title is misleading though.

I'll think about a better one.

[Sanxxieh]

Just to say... neither the Plains nor the Fortuna are open worlds... they are just bigger "free roam" zones. An open world is something much different.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Sanxxieh