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DNA stabilizers, Loyality and Stasis


Desonex
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Since the pets usefulness should be on par with the sentinels, which is why they are getting the fetch mod, there is still that drawback of keeping them alive etc.

Even with the incubator segment upgrade there is no way around of buying DNA stabilizers, petting them so they do the damage they are "supposed" to do and worrying about them getting put into stasis because you weren't playing for some time. 

I'd love to know if it's just me who dislikes this whole process of "chores" you have to do to keep your pets out or if there are more who would like to see those features removed.

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DNA stabilization is not really a chore though, this doesn't cost anything anyway.

Regarding the "petting them" part, I don't know, my Kavat never went below 100%, even when it got chainkilled back in the days when I forgot to change its build every time. And Stasis is automatic with the Enhanced incubator anyway.

The only thing that is (was?) boring is when you want to have one out of the freezer. Was 30 minutes of waiting back in the days, but as I never put my Kavat into Stasis since like 1 year+, I'm not even sure that's still functioning this way.

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2 minutes ago, Desonex said:

I'd love to know if it's just me who dislikes this whole process of "chores" you have to do to keep your pets out or if there are more who would like to see those features removed.

I haven't used a sentinel in two years - kubrows and kavats all the way - and I couldn't be less bothered by these "chores".

DNA stabilizers? Petting the cat once every couple of days? Peanuts, as far as I am concerned.

Worrying that the dog is going into stasis if I don't log for 40 days? Well, it's really far from being a concern. And even if the dog goes into stasis, so what? It's nothing that a couple of stabilizers and two days worth of petting isn't going to fix.

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7 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Regarding the "petting them" part, I don't know, my Kavat never went below 100%, even when it got chainkilled back in the days when I forgot to change its build every time.

The reason for that is that a Kavat's loyalty doesn't degrade at all. However, with Kubrows, it does.

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Dhrekr:

Worrying that the dog is going into stasis if I don't log for 40 days? Well, it's really far from being a concern. And even if the dog goes into stasis, so what? It's nothing that a couple of stabilizers and two days worth of petting isn't going to fix.

It's still 2 days and a couple of stabilizers you have to invest. I mean, i get it, they are living organisms, but you don't need to give your sentinels oil or something so they keep on running. Why do we need to do this?

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1 hour ago, Desonex said:

It's still 2 days and a couple of stabilizers you have to invest

And what an investment.

Petting a dog to max morale requires me to click 10 times on "pet your kurbow". I've spent more time clicking on keys of my keyboard for this thread than I have spent in my life to pet my kubrow.

Look, we get your point - these is inequality between living pets and sentinels. We don't contend it. But you said you'd love to hear other people's opinion and I'm not going to lie about my opinion - the "chores" to keep a pet are laughably simple. I don't mind them and whether these chores stay or go, for me, is a matter of indifference.

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Pets have a few issues in general. I think the fields of concern are the Pet bill, the Pet AI, Pet Loyalty, Pet Utility, and Pet Cryo. Several have overlapping problems.

Pet bill: 75,000 divided by 6 is 12,500 credits a day. For this price, you have a pet. The pet is... it's not terrible in combat. It can do some neat stuff. But it seems that the pet gets KO'd more often than not, especially against any kind of boss fights. Obviously, there is the solution of 'well don't bring your pets on those missions,' but that raises the core of the pet bill problem- why do we have to pay the bill for a pet that isn't useful? I think many of us would like to bring our pets on boss fights, but currently, they just die too quickly. Players are currently paying a bill for a liability rather than an asset, and that makes the pet bill feel like an arbitrary limitation.

Pet AI: They stand there while taking full magazines to the face, occasionally play fetch with the orbs the ospreys drop until they die (then get up and do it again), and sometimes they get KO'd in a place that teleports you, so you literally can do nothing but watch them die. The list goes on. While a pet AI overhaul would be nice, it would also be labor intensive. Clever solutions exist that could reduce the pain of the pet AI, but fixing the pet AI absolutely would negate many of the problems with pets as they exist now.

Pet Loyalty: Due to the combination of poor pet AI and their ability to get KO'd in places you can't revive them at, pet loyalty decreases and your ability to use them decreases as a result if it happens more than once a day. (Dying causes a -40% loyalty, and you can only restore 60% loyalty a day.) Additionally, failing to log in every other day decreases their loyalty. Players shouldn't be punished for lacking access to internet for a few days. Each of the issues by themselves are pretty small, but they can add up for some unreasonable penalties pretty easily.

Pet Utility: As it stands, pets actually enjoy a lot of utility just by virtue of having such a high chance to open lockers, detect loot and enemies, project bubble shields when you're healing allies, etc. The mods for pets are really cool, and I enjoy using them on missions i know won't be intense. The diversity of pets makes the utility even better, since no one pet has all of the abilities. There is probably room for improvement here, but it needs the least attention right now. I'd say pet utility is pretty spot on. (Maybe add a basic 'open that locker' button though. like... maybe if you have that mod, you can click the locker and automatically have the dog go to it rather than have to wait on him to figure out that's what you want to do.)

Pet Cryo: As I understand it, the limitations regarding the cryo are solutions for a combination of problems wherein players would otherwise be able to use the cryo system to be able to avoid needing to pay the credits for the kibble- er, DNA stabilizers. (While I actually dig the lore behind the DNA stabilizers and why they're needed, I think more needs to be done than simply spending credits to keep them alive. If their DNA is that erratic, maybe we could see some results of that in game? Make one of them able to spider-web spit or something but he needs his stabilizers, iunno. Point is, the pet cryo discourages swapping out pets, which discourages slapping forma on them, which discourages spending plat, which discourages paying money. I mean, there has to be a limit to how many organisms you have running around your boat, don't get me wrong, but the operator DOES have his own room. Maybe allow that space to implement a kennel system or something. Of course, that's more coding you'd have to do- a simpler solution would be the removal of the cryo delay. I recall someone else mentioning that making a 'rapid thaw' cost 1 DNA stabilizer would solve the entire delay issue, and while I don't agree that it addresses the core concern, I do think that'd be an excellent compromise.

Overall, I really like the pets and I really want to use them, but I'd be lying to you if I said I was satisfied with how they are. I know my posts are long, but I hope they are informative.

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7 minutes ago, Unexistance said:

Pet bill: 75,000 divided by 6 is 12,500 credits a day

...

Install a Nutrio Incubator Segment and the cost of DNA stabilizers will be 5000 credits for 6 charges. You need a charge every 8 days (with the Nutrio, 5% per day). That means 5000 credits will cover the cost for 48 days. Your pet costs roughly 100 credits per day.

 

It really breaks my mind to see people complaining about the "bill" and the "cost" of a pet. Seriously? 100 credits per day are going to break your finances? A single match in the Index will pay your Kubrow or Kavat for years.

 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

What if I want my Huras for my Inaros loadout and my Smeeta for my Khora loadout? 

Well, let me check. It costs you 10000 credits to rush the Stasis recovery. In terms of Index matches, that means... let me calculate... that with a single good match you can pay for hundreds, if not thousands, of Stasis rush recoveries.

That said, yes, you have to click three times on three menus (or something like that), which people can find limiting and stressful.

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1 minute ago, MasterBurik said:

The question is why do these limitations exist? What are they supposedly preventing?

Harmless relics of another time that still give you a little bit of flavour and immersion. They serve no further purpose and prevent nothing - they don't have to prevent something in order to justify their existence.

Your dog and your cat are not the same thing as a floating vacuum cleaner. In real life, you do have to sometimes feed and pet your dog - which, I hope, you don't do with your vacuum cleaner.

And to me (a full-time Kubrow and Kavat user) there's really nothing more to it. A harmless and inexpensive flavour mechanics.

(Funnily, in real life I can't stand dogs and cats. Mysteries of videogames.)

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Hello, Dhrekr.

52 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

It really breaks my mind to see people complaining about the "bill" and the "cost" of a pet.

People who are new to the game, or who are unaware that those options exist, will find themselves farming for credits a lot for what is ultimately a liability to try and take care of in combat. I think most people enjoy having the pets, just not having to pay for pets that are already rather frail. In short, it isn't how much people have to pay, it's the consistency.

13 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Your dog and your cat are not the same thing as a floating vacuum cleaner. In real life, you do have to sometimes feed and pet your dog - which, I hope, you don't do with your vacuum cleaner. 

This is an empty clause. Nobody said your dog and your cat are the same thing as a floating vacuum cleaner, nor has anyone said that you do not need to feed your pets in reality. People understand the needs of real-world people and animals. In addition to food, they need water, vaccinations, exercise, grooming, walks so they can relieve themselves, training to obey commands, etc. Yet nobody is complaining that those are not factors in the game. That is because simulation of real life is not the target for most people using pets and playing this game. Fun is the target. People are saying that this is unfun and asking for change. My question for you on this topic is, do you want it to NOT change? Is there not enough simulation of reality for you? What more real life simulation would you like to add? Do you want to require the operator to go grab toilet paper to clean up the mess if you haven't logged on recently enough? If the metric is real life, where is the threshold?

54 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Well, let me check. It costs you 10000 credits to rush the Stasis recovery. In terms of Index matches, that means... let me calculate... that with a single good match you can pay for hundreds, if not thousands, of Stasis rush recoveries.

That said, yes, you have to click three times on three menus (or something like that), which people can find limiting and stressful. 

Menu refinement would be welcome, but I don't think it's the core of most people's issues. I think that the grind associated with pets which is associated with nothing else is what makes it feel out of place. It's akin to having to purchase ammunition for your weapons before you head out on a mission, and being required to find enough credits to purchase additional rounds during the mission to justify the rounds you expended accomplishing your tasks. It's not that that's a bad game model, it's that it's not consistent with the rest of the grind.

Anyway. I really do want to know, what do you consider to be the goal regarding simulating reality?

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32 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Harmless relics of another time that still give you a little bit of flavour and immersion. They serve no further purpose and prevent nothing - they don't have to prevent something in order to justify their existence.

I find DNA degradation far less immersive than, say, feeding them would have been.

The mechanics prevent access to more than one pet at any given moment. DE must have had a reason for doing so, beyond "flavour and immersion". Immersion doubly so, as there isn't background lore provided for the mechanism.

32 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Your dog and your cat are not the same thing as a floating vacuum cleaner. In real life, you do have to sometimes feed and pet your dog - which, I hope, you don't do with your vacuum cleaner.

I do routine maintenance on my vacuum, to ensure it will function properly.

Reality aside, Sentinels aren't merely floating vacuum cleaners:

Quote

Sentinels

On the border of chartered space, an enclave of small, strange, seemingly intelligent creatures was discovered by Tenno explorers. They are mechanical entities, almost organic in appearance, with a precarious resemblance to the fearsome Sentients that had decimated human civilization. However, these creatures showed no signs of aggression, and they immediately began carrying out helpful tasks in peculiar alliance with the Tenno.

Providing Sentinels with maintenance duties, and a loyalty mechanic would be just as immersive...yet remains non-existent. I would imagine it is likely for the same reason people ask for similar mechanics to be removed from the Kubrow/Kavat system: Whatever benefits it appears to provide aren't worth the hurdles required for consistent use.

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20 часов назад, Unexistance сказал:

I think many of us would like to bring our pets on boss fights, but currently, they just die too quickly.

I use my pets on bossfights, Eidolon hunt, Sorties and Arbitrations, because their abilities are extremely useful... and I don't see them die quckly. In fact, sometimes they survive much better than my teammates.

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You can swap weapons, frames and sentinels as you wish but when you have your huras out and suddenly you wanted to use your smeeta again, stasis is going to be there to shove a big fat Nu Uh in your face. 

There are weeks where i'm not able to play and when i get back i see my good boy kicked into stasis beacuse i obv. couldn't stabilize nor pet him.

I get that i'm one of the few ones whos bothered by that but why exactly should this be "immersive"? The Operators clearly don't need to eat something or go to toilet do they? Or how about a feature that lets us fill out space taxes for Nef Anyo?

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  • 1 month later...

If you re-named DNA stabilizers "pet food" people would use them every day, you'd sell more of them, and it wouldn't feel so creepy.  Just sayin'.  Also, consider a tamagochi thing for pets with the phone app.  Or better yet, little missions that you can send them on to get resources like the extractors.

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I've personally steered clear of living companions solely because of their upkeep. It actually wasn't until earlier this week that I hatched my first two, and even then, it's just a "level to 30 then never look at again" scenario.
I'm the type of person that doesn't like to use any consumables though, if I'm given the option.

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On 2018-11-08 at 8:05 PM, Dhrekr said:

Harmless relics of another time that still give you a little bit of flavour and immersion. They serve no further purpose and prevent nothing - they don't have to prevent something in order to justify their existence.

They're far from harmless. They're upkeep in a F2P game which offers you solutions to most things for money. You can make the same argument for having to pay for ammo or medical bills at the end of a mission, ala World of Tanks and get the same result. Upkeep has no place in F2P games as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of its severity, it always serves as a money sink in a game that encourages spending money to skip the grind. Besides, Warframe doesn't exactly have a spotless past. You know - four revivals per day then pay Plat to revive. Orokin Catalysts/Reactors available for Platinum only. That slot machine for rerolling your pet. These things weren't taken out of the game for being "harmless."

DNA degradation and loyalty have no reason to exist. They add nothing to the experience and are meaningless at best, repulsive at worst. They add no complexity, they add no immersion, they add no entertainment value. Removing them from the game would have no real negative impact. Hell, if it makes Beasts a little more popular, then all the better for it - they can use the popularity boost.

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7 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Upkeep has no place in F2P games as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of its severity, it always serves as a money sink in a game that encourages spending money to skip the grind

"Spending money"?

Spend money to "skip the grind". I mean, what grind are we talking about? The hard, hard grind for 100% pet affection that everyone keeps complaining about? The endgame of dog loyalty which allows you to solo the Profit-Taker? The coveted perfect stat that is worth more than ten God-like Rivens? How much money did you pay to keep it like that? (I am of course mocking you by taking you literally).

What really strikes me as ridiculous, in this whole paper-thin crusade not to have to pet your dog once every week, is that so much emotion is being poured in something that is so pointless. And how ridiculous the escalation of rhetorics is. Petting your dog once per week (that is how often I have to do it, by the way), is presented as a possibly repulsive mechanic that has to be understood as something that makes you spend money. The analogies you provide are things like "spending plats on Orokin Reactors". Bleah. We're two steps removed from Godwin's law.

I will agree with you the day when the Kavat "grind" is a core aspect of the game and when petting your dog costs 50 plats each. Until that day, as long as making my dog happy costs a click, I'll keep looking at this whole crusade as a storm in a glass of water. This isn't even a poor man's crusade. It's the poorest of poor man's crusade. With so many extreme grinds in the game, with so many things we can and should be up in arms about, it is actually sad to see emotions being poured into hating the "pet your dog once per week" mechanics.

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2 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

Spend money to "skip the grind". I mean, what grind are we talking about? The hard, hard grind for 100% pet affection that everyone keeps complaining about? The endgame of dog loyalty which allows you to solo the Profit-Taker? The coveted perfect stat that is worth more than ten God-like Rivens? How much money did you pay to keep it like that? (I am of course mocking you by taking you literally).

Well, that's what happens when you pick three words out of an entire post and pretend like the rest of it didn't happen.

Pet upkeep serves no purpose. Regardless of how small it is, regardless of how easy it is to manage, it's still upkeep for no reason other than to provide a skin for resources which the game offers you a paid alternative to obtaining. If this system is a relic, it's a relic from a time when this game was legitimately P2W and has no business being retained in the game's current iteration. Especially so when the game dumps a Kubrow on all new players at a time when they have neither the means of earning its upkeep nor building the Incubator Segment needed to reduce the cost. I legitimately nearly walked away from the game at that precise point, when I read up on Kubrows in the Wiki and found out how DNA Stabilisers work. You're free to keep sidestepping my argument and blaming me, but that's not going to change how I feel on the matter, nor is it going to change the hearts and minds of others.

As far as I'm concerned, paying so my Kubrow doesn't degrade is no different from paying for ammo or paying for healing or paying rent for my Clan Dojo. It's a resource sink which contributes nothing to the game but another hook for the monetisation model and smells a bit too much of a Chinese F2P mobile game - regardless of the scope.

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I'm surprised at how many people are willing to defend the system as is. Pet upkeep is at its absolute best a nuisance mechanic that punishes players for wanting to use multiple pets or taking breaks from the game and otherwise serves no real benefit. At its worst it's something that keeps newer or less wealthy players from even engaging with the companion system altogether because they don't want to deal with the investment. 

So why is that good?

9 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

What really strikes me as ridiculous, in this whole paper-thin crusade not to have to pet your dog once every week, is that so much emotion is being poured in something that is so pointless.

If it's so pointless why are you pouring so much emotion into protecting it? Your best argument here seems to be that it's only kind of annoying, which seems to do more to agree with the OP's position that it's a nuisance than disagree with it, yet you're oozing contempt and venom over the mere notion that the OP doesn't like the status quo.

You talk about ridiculousness, but look again at how much spite you're throwing at some person on the internet asking for a little bit of QoL in a video game.

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17 hours ago, Elementalos said:

If it's so pointless why are you pouring so much emotion into protecting it?

"Protecting"? You completely misunderstand my position. If DE today announced they're removing them, I'd think "fancy that" and never think about the issue again. I wouldn't lift a finger to argue this system should stay. I merely said that my indifference is so total that I do not require this system to go.

So why am I still arguing? Because people respond to me as if I was defending it. As long as people keep necroing this thread and responding to my indifference with their pleas to emotion, as if my lack of offense was some sort of affront to their opinion and feeling, I'll just keep reiterating my indifference, even if it offends those who pour their emotion into this cause.

😉

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