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maltesters

How I would rework Limbo

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DE I hope that this at least gets read or maybe even considered to be tested in the dev build. As limbo currently is he just feels boring, which is sad because he used to be my favourite frame. Though i'm not expecting to see any of these changes be implemented I just wanted you guys at DE to know that the new Limbo honestly feels even worse than before. These are my reasons why I feel this way.

 

After Limbo got reworked I haven't touched him. His ability to stop time is just boring and not fun at all. I liked it more when his 2 was self banish and he could move around more freely without having to worry about enemy fire. I was happy about Limbo getting a rework because he was a linear frame, however the way he got reworked was what made me stop playing him. He still doesn't work with other frames, at all (if you don't count exalted weapons), and his cataclysm still does more harm than good. It also still doesn't let you hack terminals so survival griefing is still a thing. He still feels like a hindrance who is just there to be annoying. Big cataclysms can cause issues for teammates and the 2 just slows defence missions down. Small bubbles allow melee units to just attack the point with teammates being unable to shoot him due to the melee unit being rifted. This makes the 4  basically just useless outside of mobile defence missions.

The current way I feel limbo is supposed to be played after the rework is to banish a small group and keep juggling the knock downs from the 1 and the CC potential of the 3 into a rhythm of knocking down a small group with the 1, activating the 2 while then are knocked down and then killing all but 1 so the rift can spread to more targets by using the 1 ability on that enemy again to proc the effects of the 3 while keeping the 2 active as much as possible. This way of playing him just isn't practical due to the way you have to build for it. The 1 ability isn't allowed to have that much range or it will banish too many enemies to handle and leave your team sitting there not doing anything but his 3 then needs the range that you have just lost to spread it effectively. 

His current ability to stop time was cool at first but now its just boring to use and makes me want to play other frames. Limbo right now can be called methodical, he kills certain target in a group by stopping time and walking over to them and shooting them while they can't do anything. I know cc is supposed to be good at dealing with large groups but this is no different to the main reason he got reworked in the first place; he still kills targets one by one but this time they cant even fight back. I don't know how this was supposed to make him "fun" but i sure know that it failed.

The 3 ability is terrible. Its literally only used because of an augment that increases his damage but even then he loses that damage when he kills the marked targets. Its a chore and extremely energy heavy to keep refreshing that buff just to keep up his damage potential. His abilities barely do any damage and isn't reliable even against level 40 enemies. His passive is supposed to keep his energy up while doing this but you still use way more energy juggling the first 3 abilities than the gains from killing. Its a lot easier to just shoot them and we all know other frames can do that just as good.

his 4 is probably the only ability I like other than the 1. It pulls enemies into the rift in a large radius allowing you to gain a lot of damage from the 3's augment. Its fun just trying to survive while you kill enemies that are stuck in there with you, but this is where it starts getting bad. The cataclysm starts to shrink: As it gets smaller you get less room to move and you start losing damage without even doing anything (due the the effect of the 3 proc-ing therefor losing the "marks" on those enemies forcing you to recast the 3) 

Now that I've basically said what I feel is wrong with the current way that the abilities operate, this is what I would change about them.

 

Passive:

The passive is fine as it is. 10 energy on kill inside of the rift and dodge to enter the rift
I would make it so that allies get the energy from their own kills inside the rift, however all kills will also give limbo energy but only half the amount (limbo would get 15 energy per kill this way).

 

Banish: 25 energy

His 1 ability is fine. being able to rift multiple people is good but it should no longer deal damage. This allows him to gain benefit from his abilities without killing them prematurely.

 

Surge: 50 energy

His 2 will be his current 3, however it makes now enemies take more damage from all sources instead of re-rifting them when they leave.
with the augment it also gives the teammates the damage per marked enemy. Players also count as "marked targets" so that the augment will always have some value when cast.

 

Cataclysm: 100 energy

His 3 is Cataclysm however its now a energy drain and will expand over time instead of collapsing. It can still be collapsed when activated again to deal damage depending on the damage stored
Damage is absorbed from the enemies that are killed inside of the rift (based on there HP value) and a percentage of that damage will be dealt to enemies that try to enter the cataclysm.
Efficiency mods will drop the MAXIMUM energy cost per second not the rate that it increases at.

 

compress: 50 energy

*This ability is not currently part of his kit and is only the 4th ability due to it needing his 3 to work*

His 4 will now decrease the size of his current cataclysm by 20% and will prevent it from expanding for 2 seconds. after the 2 seconds pass it will continue expanding again.
(not effected by mods other than efficiency)

 

I came up with this to improve his synergy with himself AND his teammates. as limbo currently is, he doesn't really bring much to a fight apart from a stun that lasts indefinitely or until he runs out of energy. I feel like this will not only make Limbo more active during a mission, but also make him an asset to the other 3 players he is with. He will still be defence focused but will also have some supportive abilities to also assist his teammates. His kit kept its theme but now has a practical use.

As i said, i don't really expect this to be taken but I honestly thing if his kit was something like this then people wouldn't mind him being in the same lobby as them. Im basically forced into not using any abilities for the entire game or i get threats to be reported for greifing.

It was a lot longer than what i initially intended to write but as I said, I used to love this frame so much.

Thanks for reading :)

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13 minutes ago, maltesters said:

This ability is not currently part of his kit

DE isn't replacing abilities just changing existing ones so I'm not sure if this would work

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I assume you dont know what cataclysmic continuum is because your "new" 4th doesnt make sense

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I think it would be better to just make allies hit with Banish become "Rift-touched" instead of totally Banished. They still get the energy regen, maybe a bit of damage resistance or evasion, but for a short time, they are able to interact with enemies in both planes. 

That way, Limbo doesn't need to worry about accidentally Banishing his teammates. If they want the protection of the Rift, they can enter one of his portals or get inside a Cataclysm (i.e., they need to actively get it). It would increase his team synergy. 

His augments could also use a makeover. Cataclysmic Continuum is kinda bad. It doesn't actually stop or even slow down the shrinking of the Cataclysm, just increase the duration. I would 100% trade the increased duration for keeping it from shrinking as long as enemies die inside it. Either that, or create a new augment that lowers the maximum range of the Cataclysm significantly and prevents Limbo from detonating them manually, but allow him to open multiple (tiny) Cataclysms. This would open up his build variety and allow people to build range for his 1 and 3 without sacrificing the utility of a tiny bubble. 

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No offense mate but these changes seem unessisary. You can use your tenno to do stuff like hack while in the void. Cat turned into a toggle is kinda unnecessary when you have its augment... though granted the augment itself should be reworked because it works counter intuitive to his kit in a whole.

 

However away to rework cat so that it's actually useful outside of the few niches because ik a lot of ppl want an expanding cat but most still prefer the shrinking one

 

Cataclysm can be expanded but holding the key down. To charge the damage from the explosion.

I had and old limbo rework idea that had this mechanic I'll try to repost it idk.

DE seems to only care about reworks that are ment only to appease the majority and not critical of the warframe as a whole. Lately at least.

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18 hours ago, maltesters said:

I liked it more when his 2 was self banish and he could move around more freely without having to worry about enemy fire.

His passive lets his dodge activate that exact same ability for free with indefinite duration. He didn't lose that, just gained an additional ability so there's no benefit to making it take up a slot again...You should look at his wiki page for an in-depth description of his full capability. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Limbo#Abilities

18 hours ago, maltesters said:

He still doesn't work with other frames

I partially agree with that, but more in relation to his Banish and Rift Surge because of how wide spread and uncontrolled those abilities can be if don't go out of your way to be especially careful. I did like Banish more when it was single target, but a small target aoe radius would be far more manageable than the wide cone we have now. 

Cataclysm should be used strategically in timing and placement. It's not necessarily meant to be a permanent bubble like Frosts because it's infinitely more powerful (especially in combination with Stasis, though it can be semi-permanent with the right set up).

18 hours ago, maltesters said:

The current way I feel limbo is supposed to be played after the rework is...

Stasis makes that juggling unnecessary. Activate Stasis before banishing them then you can still manage headshots and body shots without swinging at the ground. The original Limbo playstyle did involve juggling that knockdown with single target banish in order to assassinate powerful targets when you're dueling with them or throwing Cataclysm on a group and sniping them while they get up. His rework got rid of that a long time ago, but it's still an option if needed when Stasis runs out.

 

18 hours ago, maltesters said:

His current ability to stop time was cool at first but now its just boring to use and makes me want to play other frames

Removing the anime style frozen projectiles made it much more practical for high speed combat and is much more team friendly than the old one. There is literally no benefit of freezing your own projectiles that outweighs the time and damage you gain by you being unaffected by Stasis. Status effects become infinite duration on enemies when they are under Stasis which allows you much more strategic combat by being able to stack on the statuses on frozen enemies and watch them melt away while covered in Viral, Bleed and Heat procs. Before you could only do it with melee without having to unfreeze but now you can spread those statuses across any number of your weapons as necessary and keep your allies unimpeded by the use of Stasis.

18 hours ago, maltesters said:

The 3 ability is terrible.

I agree with this, but not for the same reasons as you. The augment makes it amazing for the damage boost to his weapons (which are already his primary method of damage) and I don't find it complicated at all to manage my energy along with the buff. The issue I have is that, unless you're soloing, that move and Banish are agonizing for your teammates since there isn't 100% clear indications of when enemies are banished outside of Cataclysm and his 3 makes it spread like wildfire. Useful when dealing with Nullifiers, but still better off not even using it near teammates if it's not against enemies in Cataclysm.

18 hours ago, maltesters said:

Its fun just trying to survive while you kill enemies that are stuck in there with you, but this is where it starts getting bad.

Unnecessary with Stasis, lol, but that's up to you. With sufficient duration it isn't much issue, you can leave Cataclysm and dodge back into the rift with your passive then collapse your Cataclysm and recast in the same area to refresh it. As others mentioned, the augment helps with that issue but it doesn't bother me so I don't use it.

19 hours ago, maltesters said:

Surge

Your Surge rework is actually interesting. I wouldn't mind that as a replacement for the current one, but I know many Limbos that mostly solo might since they'll be losing their "rift spores".

19 hours ago, maltesters said:

compress

This ability is completely pointless. You underestimate how much you're shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of Stasis lol.

 

The really solution to making him team friendly should be directed towards improving rift interactions as a whole. Which leads to the next quote:

18 hours ago, Aejan said:

"Rift-touched" instead of totally Banished. They still get the energy regen, maybe a bit of damage resistance or evasion, but for a short time, they are able to interact with enemies in both planes. 

This is the direction we should be looking. This is great. It would be a great boon to make allies want to be in the rifted. There were reworks ideas previously that suggested making all rift interaction like that (as in interactions with both planes) but people didn't like it because they wanted the full invulnerability. With your method there's the best of both worlds (or dimensions). Rift-touched when Banished, or fully Rifted when in Cataclysm when they want more protection.

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

Excalibur Zephyr....

DE did say they wouldn't be doing that anymore, but then opened up a Tenno Council feedback post for a new ability for Nyx. But then ended saying they were just reworking Psychic Bolts instead of replacing it. Honestly, there's no way to know which way they'll go anymore. Lol

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That cataclysm sounds like fun. If Id tinker with any of his abilities I'd make rift surge mark enemies so they could be shot whether or not you were in the rift with them.

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On 2018-11-09 at 2:01 PM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

 You underestimate how much you're shooting yourself in the foot by not taking advantage of Stasis

I'm not saying stasis is bad in anyway. Actually its arguably one of the strongest abilities if not the strongest ability in game. What i'm actually saying is that it isn't fun to use at all (therefor why I don't use it). All it does is allow easy kills with no risks involved at all. I liked limbo for his high risk high reward but now he just kills everything with no effort . This also kills build variation when he has an ability that's that strong. kinda makes his other ones useless or feel weak.

 

On 2018-11-08 at 6:49 PM, Dopekoke said:

I assume you dont know what cataclysmic continuum is because your "new" 4th doesnt make sense

I do know what that mod does, and I didn't involve it because who even uses it anymore? its literally more irrelevant than greedy pull for mag after she got her new passive. The augment doesn't slow down the shrinking process at all so the whole concept of making it last longer isn't even there. tbf it should be completely redone or just removed.

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  • The Duration Bonus is not affected by Ability Duration.
  • This mod does not increase the duration beyond the maximum duration of Cataclysm, and the added seconds do not increase the Cataclysm's size neither do they stop it from shrinking. The increased duration does however decrease the shrinking speed.
    • The reduction of Cataclysm's radius with the augment equipped is summed up in the following formula:
      Reduction = 2 × Base Radius × (1 + Range Mods) ÷ (3 × Base Duration × (1 + Duration Mods) + Augment Duration Bonus)
    • While the mod does reduce the shrinking rate of Cataclysm, it does not prevent it from reaching its minimum radius, though the augment does allow players to maintain the bubble at minimum radius indefinitely as long as they kill enemies in the bubble.
  • The effect only occurs when an enemy dies within the bubble. It still occurs when a Warframe outside the bubble kills an enemy within, but it does not occur when a Warframe within the bubble kills an enemy outside it.

By continually killing enemies, the bubble will be up longer because the shrink rate is now exponentially decreasing since the duration is increasing while the radius is decreasing so the shrink rate is proportionate to the duration.  I know it's the wiki but I use it all the time and it does what the wiki says.  If you want, both you and I can go into an infestation survival since they will always run towards you and you'll see that the bubble can last minutes and now with Rolling Guard, if and when the bubble collapses, press 2 to have stasis ready, roll and then cast cataclysm since it takes a long to cast even with Natural talent. 

Now his number 3, requires his number 1.  First let's start with how it works.  Enemies that are hit by the rift surge and then are killed, do a radial banishment in the material plane., so that means it spreads.  This is very useful with big range and especially with infested.  Cast 2, cast 1 on enemies, shift into the rift, cast 3 and kill while every now and again shifting back into the material plane to kill rift surged enemies to cast radial banish which will force them into the rift plane.  Once the duration gets low, just keep an eye out for an enemy that doesn't have rift surge and then cast on that one.  Rift surge works great without Cataclysm, that's the thing, his 3 is good for moving from place to place killing enemies while Cataclysm is good for a stationary area.  

Another example of an ability that isn't used to its full potential is Frost's snow globe.  So many times I see players stating their hp for their globe is like 20k or whatevers but that's not what makes snow globe great, it has 2 functions that people know because all they do is look up youtube videos instead of doing their own research and doing their own testing.  The first is that for 4 seconds, the globe is invulnerable and whatever dmg it takes, it adds to the total hp of the globe that was cast.  The second is that for any recasting of a globe within another globe will get rid of the old globe and be replaced with the new one with the 4 second invulnerable IN ADDITION to having the previous globe's hp added to the new globe up to a maximum of one million.  Let that sink in.  That means you want efficiency to recast snow globe instead of a high strength Frost.  This is not new, it's old news, its been like this for a while but nobody does research or testing.  Just like how people think Gara is garbage when she is actually another warframe capable of infinite scaling dmg.

 

Back on topic, yeah, that's what Cataclysmic Continuum does contrary to your previous statement 

2 hours ago, maltesters said:

The augment doesn't slow down the shrinking process at all so the whole concept of making it last longer isn't even there.

because it does.

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