Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[Wesgile]

1 minute ago, princelorn said:

For example Strun is a pellet shotgun too, and i am suro of it, not one people use rivens to tweak the build's status chances. But it got nerfed. SO, how is justice in that? (TBH i have a Strun riven too, that i bought recent, but luckily, the changes does not destroys my build).

You'd probably be better off asking them to rework how pellets work with status chance. Prime candidate for such changes following IPS 3.0, if they'll ever get on it again...

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ReshyShira:

I've already started drifting away form warframe a bit due to Arbitrations and ESO going over about as well as a wet fart.

I somewhat share that sentiment. And for me the prime reason is because they're still far too trivial to qualify as endgame. And what is the reason for that? Well, general disbalance and OP-ness, in which Rivens play their part.

Anyway, if you should indeed decide to leave over this: Goodspeed and take care!

[ReshyShira]

4 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I mean, that bit in bold right there is a great argument for why balance is in fact so important, you know?

Except that the weapons nobody uses even with god-tier rivens aren't ever touched or buffed.  All they do is nerf the "meta" rivens, even if the weapon's pretty trash without the riven carrying it's weight.

 

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I somewhat share that sentiment. And for me the prime reason is because they're still far too trivial to qualify as endgame. And what is the reason for that? Well, general disbalance and OP-ness, in which Rivens play their part.

Anyway, if you should indeed decide to leave over this: Goodspeed and take care!

It's not really the rivens that are the problem, it's the fact that they're the epitome of what's wrong with warframe.  All their difficulty is in sheer tedium.  I'd much rather fight a couple rounds of really stupidly strong enemies than slog through a half hour of dangerous but not terribly so enemies.

[Truli]

3 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

This was actually prior to my last response in this thread, but I want to answer this one.

It's not about "your" Rubico being powerful. It's about imbalances creating a domino effect of other imbalances.

Baseline weapons in this game are *not* balanced well. The mod system is so wildly chock-full of power-inflation, that it doesn't just take those imbalances and multiply them, it does so at an extraordinary exponential level.

In order to counteract this power gap, we've gotten armor & enemy scaling that is all but out of control. It's made boss encounters one of the most commonly complaints of the game, because of the difficult of creating a challenging encounter with such massive power gaps and inflation going on. It's why we have so many "invulnerability" phases. It's why the Eidolons can only be taken down with the help of Operators.

The balance of a game is the long-term health of the game. The more imbalances there are, and the longer they sit without attention being paid to correcting them, the deeper the rabbit hole will get, the longer the chain of dominoes will grow, and the worse future content will be for it.
__
 

I mean, from the moment I learned about it I recognized it for what it was; it's a slot machine that pretty much has the same flashing neon lights as any piece of junk found littering the floor of any given casino. If DE actually said they don't want to do that, well, they've got a lot of work to do to live by those words.

__

Incidentally, I have a fetish for the Karak - not because it's much good, but (and this references my first post in the thread here) because it just *feels* nice to use.

No, you're wrong!!! This game doesnt need nerfs, it needs more chalanging enemies. And of course a player with 3k hours is gonna be powerful since he put that much time into the game. you;re afraid a noob will be weak compared to a veteran? that's natural. You keep using fancy words but not saying anything. you just give vague answers. there are weaker weapons and stronger weapons, everybody knows that, but you guys want to have veteran to use mk paris cuz because "it's not meta". Pls give me a real reason why these nerfs are taking place. And no more vague answers. 

[SpentCasings]

4 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, this all could be avoided by just having rivens remember what disposition they are.  Then your investment into a riven feels validated if it gets nerfed for all future drops, rather than being punished for investing into something that later ends up being nerfed.

THIS.

 

I would be 100% ok if the dispos changed but the rivens i spent time on already were left alone. 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I somewhat share that sentiment. And for me the prime reason is because they're still far too trivial to qualify as endgame. And what is the reason for that? Well, general disbalance and OP-ness, in which Rivens play their part.

Anyway, if you should indeed decide to leave over this: Goodspeed and take care!

I play warframe for rivens

Pretty much fight eidolons only for arcanes or riven transmuters

 

Its the only end game veteran thing to actually do really

 

All you do in warframe is collect everything. And fine tune your favored playstyle

[Truli]

3 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I mean, that bit in bold right there is a great argument for why balance is in fact so important, you know?

no, you don't get the system, the weaker weapons are low mr requited, they are for new players to get used to the game playing lower content. That is the reason why weak weapons exist. But that doesnt mean that me, a veteran with 3k hours should use those weapons since i invested a lot of time to have good gear. That makes no sense. You want everybody to use the weakest weapons but those were designed for new players. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

It's true that we were told Riven passes would happen, people simply feel burned because the frequency at which this has happened was so slow that it created many horror stories for loyal paying customers that have come out of nowhere. That doesn't seem like a good move to me considering the foundation of the DE studio is literally the love of our community. People just won't accept that DE did this.

Agreed.

Like i said their main mistake was leaving things unattended for this long.

My fav weapon is and almost always was the Amprex. I bought a Riven for 1500p for it back in the day when the system was fresh. You won't see me complaining. DE were clear about Rivens and honestly they're mostly just a leisure hobby / plat sink for whales anyway. I can't imagine someone starting the game and buying these amounts of plat just to buy a single mod.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

2 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

THIS.

 

I would be 100% ok if the dispos changed but the rivens i spent time on already were left alone. 

Let our rivens keep their stats

Give everyone kuva per riven owned that was changed

And itd be fine

Balance the dispo. But dont touch preset aquired riven stats

 

 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Agreed.

Like i said their main mistake was leaving things unattended for this long.

My fav weapon is and almost always was the Amprex. I bought a Riven for 1500p for it back in the day when the system was fresh. You won't see me complaining. DE were clear about Rivens and honestly they're mostly just a leisure hobby / plat sink for whales anyway. I can't imagine someone starting the game and buying these amounts of plat just to buy a single mod.

You spent 80$ on an in game item

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb ReshyShira:

It's not really the rivens that are the problem, it's the fact that they're the epitome of what's wrong with warframe.  All their difficulty is in sheer tedium.  I'd much rather fight a couple rounds of really stupidly strong enemies than slog through a half hour of dangerous but not terribly so enemies.

I'm totally with you there. But they have to balance out lack of challenge with tedium to at least build some friciton to the grind. And my point still remains: The reason for lack of challenge is our general OP-ness / game discbalance. If you consider Rivens to be part of the problem or merely a symptom is up to debate i guess.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Tomplexthis:

You spent 80$ on an in game item

Yeah, so what. I earned the 80$ ingame... and even if i didn't: It was my decision to do so alone and i was aware of the risks as DE stated them clearly and officially.

[Truli]

12 hours ago, alboon said:

no compensations I've spent plat for riven mod slots and now most of them are nerf'd...

of course not, your time and money means nothing to them....

[(PSN)xSweep66]

5 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Agreed.

Like i said their main mistake was leaving things unattended for this long.

My fav weapon is and almost always was the Amprex. I bought a Riven for 1500p for it back in the day when the system was fresh. You won't see me complaining. DE were clear about Rivens and honestly they're mostly just a leisure hobby / plat sink for whales anyway. I can't imagine someone starting the game and buying these amounts of plat just to buy a single mod.

Yeah. I invested a bit of plat but over a long period of time. My collection is primarily smart trades and ridiculous amounts of Kuva farming pre and post Kuva survival.

It just confuses me. Our non-fashion endgame is literally "win more". Winning is easy for us. But winning more is something that the kind of people who play Warframe enjoy enough to invest in ridiculous ways. Why take that down a notch? For what purpose?

[ReshyShira]

5 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Agreed.

Like i said their main mistake was leaving things unattended for this long.

My fav weapon is and almost always was the Amprex. I bought a Riven for 1500p for it back in the day when the system was fresh. You won't see me complaining. DE were clear about Rivens and honestly they're mostly just a leisure hobby / plat sink for whales anyway. I can't imagine someone starting the game and buying these amounts of plat just to buy a single mod.

But you don't wanna go and turn around and make the Whales feel like DE is taking advantage of them either.

3 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I'm totally with you there. But they have to balance out lack of challenge with tedium to at least build some friciton to the grind. And my point still remains: The reason for lack of challenge is our general OP-ness / game discbalance. If you consider Rivens to be part of the problem or merely a symptom is up to debate i guess.

Rivens honestly are pretty superfluous compared to enemies just being relatively brain dead and unchallenging.  Most of my deaths in things like ESO and Arbitration are because my eyes glazed over from boredom that I went down.  That's not challenge.

 

Just now, (PS4)xSweep66 said:

Yeah. I invested a bit of plat but over a long period of time. My collection is primarily smart trades and ridiculous amounts of Kuva far. Pre and post Kuva survival.

It just confuses me. Our non-fashion endgame is literally "win more". Winning is easy for us. But winning more is something that the kind of people who play Warframe enjoy enough to invest in ridiculous ways. Why take that down a notch? For what purpose?

That's the big thing too, even for players like me who primarily just get stupidly good riven drops, I've spent many many many hours farming Kuva to get good rolls on them, and now I feel like DE is punishing me for playing the game.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Just now, Truli said:

of course not, your time and money means nothing to them....

I like warframe 🙂

i actually dont care about these changes

its just fun to talk about warframe

even when people are mad at the devs

lol

 

but still 

change my SUPRA BACK

AYUGHHGG

please

[Truli]

Just now, (PS4)Tomplexthis said:

I like warframe 🙂

i actually dont care about these changes

its just fun to talk about warframe

even when people are mad at the devs

lol

 

but still 

change my SUPRA BACK

AYUGHHGG

please

it stops being fun, when you invest a lot of time and effort into something and they destroy it in a second. that's takes away the "fun", nobody likes unfairness. 

[revanatar]

14 часов назад, [DE]Connor сказал:

Pandero: 1.0->0.95

Yeah, killing it slowly to feel the pain.

[SpentCasings]

and I JUST Got a pandero riven....ugh...

[(PSN)NeroRedgrave]

Make useless weapons viable but don't nerf good weapons. It's so easy.

[Alienami]

46 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, if they kept already dropped rivens the same I doubt any of this would have been an issue.  It'd have been so easy too.  Just make dropped rivens track their disposition as of the time of dropping. 

Do you want to see rivens selling for something like 10,000 plat in a few years or less?

Because this is how you create massive supply and demand with ultra rare quality rivens that are grandfathered to stay "as is" are a huge huge huge huge mistake.

[revanatar]

1 минуту назад, SpentCasings сказал:

and I JUST Got a pandero riven....ugh...

The only hope - prime... But we will be too old then.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

It just confuses me. Our non-fashion endgame is literally "win more". Winning is easy for us. But winning more is something that the kind of people who play Warframe enjoy enough to invest in ridiculous ways. Why take that down a notch? For what purpose?

Well, but the balance merely shifts. Power / "more" is relative. Some things will always be more popular (and thus lucrative) than others, even if DE meets their alleged goal of balancing things out. So i don't see them hurting plat trades honestly. (Especially since they boosted the rarity of Sentinel mods with the very same update... Call my a cynic but i don't see any reason for that other than inflate their prices, especially considering we had the very same scenario already with the Artax).

[Truli]

12 hours ago, ValloVN said:

What u buy or sell a riven for is not DE business. Also people should stop blaming de for own mistake for gathering rivens to make plat off other ppl. And please add price limit like 1000  plat per riven. I have seen 10 000 p ingame trading amounts which is not normal. Its around 400 euros in real money. If something would be stabile and somewhat controlled then it would cause less problems and less drama.

So according to your logic, if i buy a Ferrari with 100 000 euros, then the company from Ferrari take my motor and changed it with a seat one, that is fair right? People are doing what they feel like, you seem angry of people who make plat or good rivens.....leave people have their fun. If they don't many will leave the game. there is no point of staying in a game where it doesn't recognise your progress or your effort you put in. 

[TheGreenFellow]

19 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Except that the weapons nobody uses even with god-tier rivens aren't ever touched or buffed.  All they do is nerf the "meta" rivens, even if the weapon's pretty trash without the riven carrying it's weight.

It's not really the rivens that are the problem, it's the fact that they're the epitome of what's wrong with warframe.  All their difficulty is in sheer tedium.  I'd much rather fight a couple rounds of really stupidly strong enemies than slog through a half hour of dangerous but not terribly so enemies.

That's...not true. Look again at the full list of changes, and go back through this thread and see for yourself how many people are questioning many of the changes to these weapons that "nobody uses".

That said...I'll kinda agree that rivens do highlight what's wrong with Warframe: there is a total lack of formulaic core balance, and this root problem causes a whole lot of painful symptoms.
__

17 minutes ago, Truli said:

This game doesnt need nerfs, it needs more chalanging enemies. And of course a player with 3k hours is gonna be powerful since he put that much time into the game. you;re afraid a noob will be weak compared to a veteran? that's natural. You keep using fancy words but not saying anything. you just give vague answers. there are weaker weapons and stronger weapons, everybody knows that, but you guys want to have veteran to use mk paris cuz because "it's not meta". Pls give me a real reason why these nerfs are taking place. And no more vague answers. 

I just explained to you why 'more challenge' is impossible to obtain. The game is already too far imbalanced to do so. That's readily apparent when EVERY boss *has* to have invulnerable phases or else becomes a joke like The Sergeant is.

Again, you're entirely missing the point when you say things like "noob compared to a veteran". That's neither here nor there. You're just another one of the victims of the Blizzard World of Warcraft power fantasy fallacy.

The harsh reality is that Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing, and that the 'power fantasy' is one of the very worst things to design a game around.

It's not about veterans using a Mk 1 Paris.

p.s. Dismissing everything I've told you as "vague" or "fancy words" isn't an argument.
 

15 minutes ago, Truli said:

no, you don't get the system, the weaker weapons are low mr requited, they are for new players to get used to the game playing lower content. That is the reason why weak weapons exist. But that doesnt mean that me, a veteran with 3k hours should use those weapons since i invested a lot of time to have good gear. That makes no sense. You want everybody to use the weakest weapons but those were designed for new players. 

And here again, you've got the wrong of it. Weaker weapons don't exist for "new players to get used to lower content". That's completely got the cart before the horse. The new players have these weaker weapons and weaker content because the game has a horridly inbalanced power fantasy going on.

There shouldn't *be* a "bad gear" vs "good gear" dichotomy going on. What it should be is "which of these different yet all effective choices do I like best for the particular bit of content I'm about to engage in?"

THAT would be interesting. That would be a fun choice to make. Far more so than "well, I brought high level gear so I win again, woopdeedoo".

___


I'm going to say one more thing before leaving this thread, and this is for you, DE.

Rivens were a mistake. Whatever the intentions, what's been accomplished is merely giving players yet another way to extend the power gap, and make all the pre-existing balance problems even worse.

It's possible you can salvage something out of it; you could potentially use it as one more lever to bring parity to the many weapons we can use, for instance.

But even ignoring the issues of balance and stats, there's many things about Rivens that aren't right.

There's far too much RNG (RNG to obtain, RNG on what weapon it will turn out to be, RNG on what the stats are, RNG on what the stats might become - none of that RNG should be there); there's no agency given to the player - no control over the result (imagine the ways we players could experiment if we could pick and choose the stats we wanted? for instance, I'd want to see how well status chance affects many weapons as opposed to, say, raw damage & multishot).And it takes a rather ponderous amount of investment of time/resources just to keep pulling that lever.

Combine that with having no regulation for trading - no centralized index of offers for buying/selling, forcing players to rely entirely on third party tools to achieve some kind of standard - and you get the current mess we have now...and the outcry any time you so much as touch one of those levers affecting this house of cards you've constructed.

What you choose to do from this point onward, I'm not sure I can help advise with; I just hope my perspective helps expose that house of cards for what it is and thereby helps you decide what best to do with it.