Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[Mindbulletz]

Just now, Prime_Reckoner said:

Is that given anywhere? I checked the wiki, and it says riven disp is from 1 to 5. I have never heard of this 0.5 to 1.6. I am just trying to see how much they nerfed strun wraith lol

https://semlar.com/rivencalc/

[Darkuhn]

Every one knew from the Start that Riven Dispositions could change any time depending on usage through the whole Community. So why are some people act like its the end of the World?

Yes some of my weapons got a tiny bit worse than before, but other Weapons got buffed so I don't se any Problem with the Changes. The Stats also stayed the same, so all "godly" Rivens are still at the same Spot as before.

All DE should have done from the Start was a Monthly/Weekly Riven recalibration so people wouldn't have gotten so used to constant Riven Values.

[W3zeer]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb Operativ:

This game is in good hands and it's progressing into a good direction where there is no meta, only alternative choices.

Yeah sure, that's why all the content that was added this year favours one specific squad composition to a point serious teammates wont let you bring anything else.

I'm just glad I never embarked on the Riven train (although I'm at 90 Rivens). I played with them a bit, but never farmed Kuva excessivly and have only a few builds centered around one 😄 . A system that enforces you to invest huge ammounts of time into building your equipment but at the same time refuses to let you trust your effort will be still worth something tomorrow is just bad. And there is just no logical reason behind lots of the changes. Vasto needed a nerf? The gun couldn't compete even with a higher disposition. Disposition changes only add another layer of RNG ontop the the layers they already have, I'll be sticking to conventional builds and pitty all those that have invested time and money.

 

Edit: One could also think it might be no coincidence that forma-bundles just now became available for bulk-sale 😄

 

 

[Prime_Reckoner]

3 minutes ago, Mindbulletz said:

https://semlar.com/rivencalc/

thanks mate thats helpful

[Ms_Salami]

There were no in game notifications. I found out first from a YTber this morning (UK).

Everything I used regularly or had rivens for have been nerfed. 😢

All the Eidolon hunt weapons of choice have been nerfed. All the good secondaries.

I was exicted to see what you put in Fortuna, but when I opened the can, it was:

Spoiler

I'm not a fan.

[kgabor]

19 minutes ago, Ms_Salami said:

All the Eidolon hunt weapons of choice have been nerfed. All the secondaries.

Yep, they want us to play the next open world and abandon the last one for statistics.

My Vectis and Euphona feel violated. :'(

[Truli]

1 hour ago, TheGreenGunner said:

That's...not true. Look again at the full list of changes, and go back through this thread and see for yourself how many people are questioning many of the changes to these weapons that "nobody uses".

That said...I'll kinda agree that rivens do highlight what's wrong with Warframe: there is a total lack of formulaic core balance, and this root problem causes a whole lot of painful symptoms.
__

I just explained to you why 'more challenge' is impossible to obtain. The game is already too far imbalanced to do so. That's readily apparent when EVERY boss *has* to have invulnerable phases or else becomes a joke like The Sergeant is.

Again, you're entirely missing the point when you say things like "noob compared to a veteran". That's neither here nor there. You're just another one of the victims of the Blizzard World of Warcraft power fantasy fallacy.

The harsh reality is that Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing, and that the 'power fantasy' is one of the very worst things to design a game around.

It's not about veterans using a Mk 1 Paris.

p.s. Dismissing everything I've told you as "vague" or "fancy words" isn't an argument.
 

And here again, you've got the wrong of it. Weaker weapons don't exist for "new players to get used to lower content". That's completely got the cart before the horse. The new players have these weaker weapons and weaker content because the game has a horridly inbalanced power fantasy going on.

There shouldn't *be* a "bad gear" vs "good gear" dichotomy going on. What it should be is "which of these different yet all effective choices do I like best for the particular bit of content I'm about to engage in?"

THAT would be interesting. That would be a fun choice to make. Far more so than "well, I brought high level gear so I win again, woopdeedoo".

___


I'm going to say one more thing before leaving this thread, and this is for you, DE.

Rivens were a mistake. Whatever the intentions, what's been accomplished is merely giving players yet another way to extend the power gap, and make all the pre-existing balance problems even worse.

It's possible you can salvage something out of it; you could potentially use it as one more lever to bring parity to the many weapons we can use, for instance.

But even ignoring the issues of balance and stats, there's many things about Rivens that aren't right.

There's far too much RNG (RNG to obtain, RNG on what weapon it will turn out to be, RNG on what the stats are, RNG on what the stats might become - none of that RNG should be there); there's no agency given to the player - no control over the result (imagine the ways we players could experiment if we could pick and choose the stats we wanted? for instance, I'd want to see how well status chance affects many weapons as opposed to, say, raw damage & multishot).And it takes a rather ponderous amount of investment of time/resources just to keep pulling that lever.

Combine that with having no regulation for trading - no centralized index of offers for buying/selling, forcing players to rely entirely on third party tools to achieve some kind of standard - and you get the current mess we have now...and the outcry any time you so much as touch one of those levers affecting this house of cards you've constructed.

What you choose to do from this point onward, I'm not sure I can help advise with; I just hope my perspective helps expose that house of cards for what it is and thereby helps you decide what best to do with it.

What power gap? what are you talking about? there is not power gap, this is not a game where everything should be the same lvl. There are stuff which are weaker than others. What i'm saying reflects the opinions of others who want to quit the game because they no longer care about it, if DE changes everything the worked for. You want chaos, you want people not to have fun, you want people to all be the same ="communism", you "balanced game" means everybody has the same power even if one played the game for 5000 hours or 5 houres. this seems fair to you right? 

[--LA--Vengeance]

I died a little bit inside when I figured even that 5-6 rivens I use all got nerfed 😂 Never bought rivens to make them op,but just because I loved these weapons. That's why a smol part of me is sad.

But I'm glad that this change came. 

The only thing I think u might went a bit hard on are snipers because before PoE nobody used them and they finally got some use. 

Nice Fortuna update,keep it up!

[Sishan]

2 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Because these changes work towards Rivens originally intended goal, which i support.

Also because your entitlement is 100% unwarranted: EULAs... read em.

Besides DE made it clear from the very beginning that these would be subject to change and also that they'd never balance any content around them.

Its fairly clear from their actions taken here without any real rhyme or reason except moving things in no direction at all that they have no goal whatsoever with rivens. The system does not work because it cannot and will not make bad weapons good without vastly overpowering them to the point of pushing their disposition off down to one. RIVENS MAKE NO SENSE as a system because the weapons that do not work have deeper problems that make them terrible. Reality says then that these are just arbitrary changes based on absolutely nothing, especially with the fact that 2 weapons were allowed to escape changes based on the fact that their meta would change.

Either change more than 1 pip on the bad weapons or don't do it at all, you want people to use bad weapons make real changes, don't pussyfoot around and do nothing but nerf.

[Truli]

14 hours ago, RezMyDeadbody said:

...which is exactly what Riven Dispositions do- they buff unappealing items to make them appealing.  I swear to god, it's like some of you think that the point of Rivens is solely to make your Tigris better.  It's not.  Your Tigris is already good enough.  Rivens/Dispositions exist to buff less desirable items.  Which is exactly what you say you want, yet you complain about the solution because it doesn't buff weapons that don't need buffing as much as it does weapons that DO need it.

Gamers are a confounding bunch.

 

We are angry not because they don't buff with rivens powerfull weapons,we are f$%^%4 angry because they ddn't change anything for a year, players put kuva and time and money into rivens just to get them worth nothing. We are angry because DE doesn't even check the content they release and they modify it "if it's broken" after a year, when the players get used to it. 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

So i checked it.

https://semlar.com/rivencalc/

Harpaks 1.55

Thats interesting

Miter also 1.5

[Eljureo]

I am happy with this change.

Even better would be if we had an actual real time change say every month.

I want to see Lanka, Gram, Rubico at 0.5 until they become unpopular.

Every month update.

[zWhiteKz]

Let be honest we all see this incomming for forever. I respect DE with this "balance" disposition because it seem rather fair and nothing got buff/nerf out of existant. I'm sad on how many angry 12 years old give DE so much shjt for this. The remove of Sentinal rivens seem "interesting", it raise a question "what is the purpose of Sentinal weapon?" to kill or to deal elemental cc or just there for low-lv content ? and Sentinal riven remove soon™ = how those this affect the mods that Sentinal have to "kill" to trigger effect ?. This change will rock the riven eco system but this also make the game feel fresh and more balancing.

PS: Dont u there touch my Sobek riven i roll so hard for 100% sc 😡

[ReshyShira]

53 minutes ago, Darkuhn said:

Every one knew from the Start that Riven Dispositions could change any time depending on usage through the whole Community. So why are some people act like its the end of the World?

Yes some of my weapons got a tiny mit worse than before, but other Weapons got buffed so I don't se any Problem with the Changes. The Stats also stayed the same, so all "godly" Rivens are still at the same Spot as before.

All DE should have done from the Start was a Monthly/Weekly Riven recalibration so people wouldn't have gotten so used to constant Riven Values.

Thing is that a.2 chance can be massive when a weapon is below 1.0.  So few weapons got buffed, and those that did didn't get one that was meaningful enough to justify it's use, but the weapons people actually find useful with rivens got massive nerfs.  They're nerfing a lot of weapons that are only good with a riven and yet they decide to not nerf the Kohm and Detron because they're also only good with a riven.  What the hell double standard is that?  If you know a weapon's bad without a riven just don't change it.  If the riven is making a bad gun good then it's doing it's job.  The riven dispo shouldn't be penalized for doing it's intended job.

 

1 hour ago, Valarfax said:

I don't understand, some of the guns you guys nerfed are REALLY bad. Why did you make this decision based on usage alone? Some of the guns are only used as much as they are for fun factor or because they're literally starter weapons like the Lato, so why make them even less viable?

Thing is that a lot of these guns are only good with a riven and yet they're nerfing the only thing making the guns usable.  Really makes no sense, making a weak gun usable with a riven, only for the thing enabling their usefulness to take a hit because it catches on seems... well utterly contrary to the point of rivens.

 

 

1 minute ago, Eljureo said:

I am happy with this change.

Even better would be if we had an actual real time change say every month.

I want to see Lanka, Gram, Rubico at 0.5 until they become unpopular.

Every month update.

Why?  Those are used primarily for Eidolons.

[Sharkgoblin]

5 hours ago, COATTOQUALUNQUE said:

are you #*!%ing real de what the #*!% are you doing you nerf rivens for weapons almost no one uses

this is my buzlok before your bullS#&$

this is my buzlok after your bullS#&$ 

"huh that doesnt look much"

 if you thought that you are wrong, i paid the thing with my plat, maxed it with my credits and endo, rerolled it with my kuva and then i lost 231 damage like that

since you are nerfing rivens for  weapons that gained some popularity such as miter and buzlok, where is the kohm, why that shotgun that gained so much popularity is untouched? where is the kohm riven nerf? oh wait that weapon actually gained so much popularity and riven prices are high enough that you are scared to nerf that huh? so you go and #*!% actually unpopular weapons because you feel like it also:

if you want to reinvigorate weapons diversity at high level what is the #*!%ing point on nerfing rivens for unpopular weapons 

ah and i forgot to add they also nerfed viper riven disposition i own a decent viper riven for my viper wraith the gun is simply bad and even a riven cant make it good but i liked the look and the handling and it has a neat augment, but OH VIPER IS TOO STRONG THEY HAD TO NERF THE DISPOSITION AND NOT EVEN BOTHER RAISING SOME STATS ON IT

MEANWHILE HERS THE NEW KITGUNS, LOOK HOW BALANCED THE STATS ARE, YOU DONT EVEN NEED PRIMED MODS TO MAKE THIS THING OVERKILL AT HIGH LEVELS

[SymmetricalDocking]

Please remember the purpose of rivens before you post. Obviously you can support or be critical of the changes

Just now, ReshyShira said:

 They're nerfing a lot of weapons that are only good with a riven and yet they decide to not nerf the Kohm and Detron because they're also only good with a riven.   

You keep repeating this. Can you give some examples? What other weapons changed that go from completely unused to a great gun that people only use based on the disposition like Kohm?

The majority of guns changed are optimal (or just really fun, fun guns got hit hard) choices even without rivens.

It seems like the Kohm is the poster child of the entire purpose of rivens stated by DE from the beginning. As it allows an unused, weak gun to be viable with a riven. (And better than viable in this case).

[Simione]

fortuna update ++

riven disposition changes --

DE trying to make some weird balance

[TheBronx]

So, a few notes to see if anyone agrees on this or not:

1. Is this what we should expect in the future? Massive riven nerfs without notice, mixed with huge updates? What is the roadmap? Is this going to happen now monthly or yearly? Are Kohm rivens never going to be nerfed cause they are special? What's the plan? It already is hard to accept this nerf but it is harder when you don't even understand what the #*!% is going on or what is the goal if there is any...

2. This is not the way to communicate this. Just a list of numbers that make no sense. What's the correlation of these numbers with riven dispositions? What is the data supporting these changes? Why now? Why changing it at the same time you launch Fortuna? Is it because you want it to be less noisy this way? This is not how you should be communicating big changes in the future. And DE Steve announcing it live on stream a few hours before did not help either...

3. A lot of people invested time and/or plat on items that now are worth much less, to say it in some way. You know that, everyone knows that. Should we not change those items because of that? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But I am sure about something: an in-game message saying "hey, we just nerfed your rivens, check them out and have fun!" is not a kind and emphatic way of treating your players, especially your long term ones. You should have taken the time to find a way to compensate for such a big hit. Maybe gift some Kuva, veiled rivens or even plat to those affected by the change. Maybe open a way to trade those rivens for resources so you can at least get something for rivens that are no longer viable if you want. Maybe just a "Sorry" would have helped. I don't know, but definitely some kind of compensation would have been appreciated so we know you care, at least a bit. The in-game message and this thread doesn't show any respect at all for the effort so many players have put in their rivens.

Now it is too late and the damage is done. Shame on you DE.

[ReshyShira]

2 minutes ago, SymmetricalDocking said:

Please remember the purpose of rivens before you post. Obviously you can support or be critical of the changes

You keep repeating this. Can you give some examples? What other weapons changed that go from completely unused to a great gun that people only use based on the disposition like Kohm?

The majority of guns changed are optimal (or just really fun, fun guns got hit hard) choices even without rivens.

It seems like the Kohm is the poster child of the entire purpose of rivens stated by DE from the beginning. As it allows an unused, weak gun to be viable with a riven. (And better than viable in this case).

Buzlok, Miter, Viper, Strun, and a couple others.  These weapons are pretty much never used without a riven... and they got nerfed.  Why?  Their usability is almost completely tied to them being used in conjunction with a riven.

This is barring just uncommon weapons like the Opticor or the Lanka which had negative riven changes that I just... don't agree with, simply due to how situationally they're used.

You have meme weapons, weapons that aren't seen without a riven, and highly niche weapons getting nerfed in this update, and it's not a really good feeling.  IT feels like they're targeting weapons not based off of actual usage but what they believe the usage is.

[Eljureo]

I would love to see some usage stats. What weapons were used by Veterans(MR16+) for how many % of time played, during a set period.

And also some methodology, my second most used weapon is PENTA, untouched from 2015.

[SymmetricalDocking]

12 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Buzlok, Miter, Viper, Strun, and a couple others.  These weapons are pretty much never used without a riven... and they got nerfed.  Why?  Their usability is almost completely tied to them being used in conjunction with a riven.

...

IT feels like they're targeting weapons not based off of actual usage but what they believe the usage is.

Miter and Viper are primarily used without rivens. Many players run them with just their augment. Buzlok has a large cult of users, riven or not, at mid-MR. Strun? Yeah, no idea there...

None of those become completely worthless with a small disposition change like the Kohm would, though.

Should they just change how shotgun status works? Yes. Does what they did show some intelligence? Also yes, some.

 

If you had usage statistics, I bet Lanka has massively high in-mission stats just from people sitting in PoE for 45 minutes. I think they should have used the same discretion they used above to not nerf it as we go into Fortuna.

[Eljureo]

24 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Why?  Those are used primarily for Eidolons.

Because for some reason they reach sick prices on the market and are probably to good.

These weapons are very Meta in endgame content, matched with a powerful riven they give you little incentive to use anything else in a PoE hunt.

Stated Riven intent is to make other weapons useful and popular, not the meta ones.

[Slimspadey101]

16 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Based on these parameters, here is the complete list of changes we have made:

I noticed that the Glaxion isn't listed here yet my Riven definitely changed. It was over 200% damage and crit chance and now its about 150%.

[Sharkgoblin]

Just now, SymmetricalDocking said:

Miter and Viper are primarily used without rivens. Many players run them with just their augment. Buzlok has a large cult of users, riven or not, at mid-MR. Strun? Yeah, no idea there...

None of those become completely worthless with a small disposition change like the Kohm would, either.

Should they just change how shotgun status works? Yes. Does what they did show some intelligence? Also yes, some.

 

If you had usage statistics, I bet Lanka has massively high in-mission stats just from people sitting in PoE for 45 minutes. I think they should have used the same discretion they used above to not nerf it as we go into Fortuna.

no, if they nerfed miter and buzlok so the kohm should be nerfed as well, its more popular than miter and buzlok so its only fair,  and no they should not change status on shotguns because even the lame kohmak with a riven with 100% status and 4 60/60 can shred a lvl 155 corrupted bombard in no time, since pellet shotguns with 100% status are all strong as #*!%

[ReshyShira]

6 minutes ago, SymmetricalDocking said:

Miter and Viper are primarily used without rivens. Many players run them with just their augment. Buzlok has a large cult of users, riven or not, at mid-MR. Strun? Yeah, no idea there...

None of those become completely worthless with a small disposition change like the Kohm would, though.

Should they just change how shotgun status works? Yes. Does what they did show some intelligence? Also yes, some.

 

If you had usage statistics, I bet Lanka has massively high in-mission stats just from people sitting in PoE for 45 minutes. I think they should have used the same discretion they used above to not nerf it as we go into Fortuna.

I've never seen people use those weapons besides with a riven or memeing (or just being so new that they don't know better, like the seer).

 

5 minutes ago, Eljureo said:

Because for some reason they reach sick prices on the market and are probably to good.

These weapons are very Meta in endgame content, matched with a powerful riven they give you little incentive to use anything else in a PoE hunt.

Stated Riven intent is to make other weapons useful and popular, not the meta ones.

That's just the thing then, they're balancing rivens based on price of the rivens, not how much they're actually used (or how much the weapon is used without a riven).

 

 

13 minutes ago, Eljureo said:

I would love to see some usage stats. What weapons were used by Veterans(MR16+) for how many % of time played, during a set period.

And also some methodology, my second most used weapon is PENTA, untouched from 2015.

I'd also like to see the (with riven) and (without riven) statistics.  Because if a weapon that's only seeing wide usage with a riven is being nerfed in it's disposition than I think DE has utterly failed in it's goal of rivens.