Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[TheGreenFellow]

6 minutes ago, Truli said:

Really? i just lost thousands of plat!! kind of sick of those nerfs. This game has even more nerf than PvP and they don't have a real reason for it. because of those tiny changes i'm quitting the game. 

I don't understand this post and the many others like it in this thread.

That's how market economy works, people.

You threw your money at a very thinly veiled lottery machine married to an unregulated auction house.

You shouldn't be surprised that you're the one that has to bite the bullet when something bad happens to that investment.

There's a reason why many people try to teach their kids early on that gambling is not a good idea. They've either already learned the hard way themselves, or seen someone else do it.

It's also why financial advisors won't tell you to throw your life savings into the stock market. It's a gamble. You win or lose based on factors not under your control. (Which is why much wiser, safer forms of investment exist instead.)

The real complaint you should all be making here is that the fact this thinly veiled lottery machine exists in the first place - and that there's no regulation going on with player trading. If even Runescape can do it, so can Warframe.

[Truli]

12 hours ago, Zilotz said:

Why nerf it?

We need a weapon for eidolon hunts, right?

And if i knew it will be nerfed i would not get rubico prime at all.

The DE wants you to hunt eidolons with your mk-paris, because if you are too good you're not gonna spend thousands of houres in their precious game. 

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I don't understand this post and the many others like it in this thread.

That's how market economy works, people.

You threw your money at a very thinly veiled lottery machine married to an unregulated auction house.

You shouldn't be surprised that you're the one that has to bite the bullet when something bad happens to that investment.

There's a reason why many people try to teach their kids early on that gambling is not a good idea. They've either already learned the hard way themselves, or seen someone else do it.

The real complaint you should all be making here is that the fact this thinly veiled lottery machine exists in the first place - and that there's no regulation going on with player trading. If even Runescape can do it, so can Warframe.

You didnt answer his question.

 

Thsi was done in the name of "balance" As is this were a pvp game. ITS NOT. Who is gonna complain about the one jerkoff in the squad with some God riven on his lanka while you go around with your Braton prime mowing down everything anyway?

I have never once complained about a squad mate having too powerful a weapon. There wasnt any reason for the nerfs. 

[ReshyShira]

3 minutes ago, TheGreenGunner said:

I don't understand this post and the many others like it in this thread.

That's how market economy works, people.

You threw your money at a very thinly veiled lottery machine married to an unregulated auction house.

You shouldn't be surprised that you're the one that has to bite the bullet when something bad happens to that investment.

There's a reason why many people try to teach their kids early on that gambling is not a good idea. They've either already learned the hard way themselves, or seen someone else do it.

It's also why financial advisors won't tell you to throw your life savings into the stock market. It's a gamble. You win or lose based on factors not under your control. (Which is why much wiser, safer forms of investment exist instead.)

The real complaint you should all be making here is that the fact this thinly veiled lottery machine exists in the first place - and that there's no regulation going on with player trading. If even Runescape can do it, so can Warframe.

I thought DE said prior that they were against "making a slot machine" for platinum, yet this is exactly what riven rebalances can turn into.

 

5 minutes ago, NoRainNoRainbow said:

And do you really need to nerf every sniper at the same time? Not that I think it'll change much, just feels bad.

I think it's readily apparent that DE doesn't nerf weapons by actual practical usage, just a general measure of how good they think a weapon's disposition ought to be.

[NoRainNoRainbow]

Making these changes was not the mistake, the mistake was not doing it every month since they released rivens.

[JawNuts]

Lesson every Warframe player needs to learn- Love nothing. 

Your best/fave frame, weapons, rivens could be great now but there's always a chance that it'll get nerfed hard (to the point of being unusable) in the future. We've seen it happened tons of time before. And there's nothing much we can do but move on sadly.

Unfortunately, this is a hard lesson to learn as we usually become very attached to something we've worked hard on. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

I wasn't saying anything like that. But there is literally no other content in which those weapons appear regularly. They were nerfed because of their use in a single piece of content. 

You're actually right, apologies! That being said i still don't see Eidolon hunts lasting considerably longer because of these tiny changes, so i really don't understand the general uproar.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

My issue here is that rivens and eidolons are about the only real draw or end gane in warframe. Rivens kinda keep me playing as they are about the only goal we get in warframe

Love your weapons

Play how you want

Farm forever

Doing the same thing over and over

Just to play with op weapons on dumb ai 

 

It sucks

Why the heck did supra rivens get chucked so hardly

0.05 or less isnt an issue

But dang... T T

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, ReshyShira said:

 

I think it's readily apparent that DE doesn't nerf weapons by actual practical usage, just a general measure of how good they think a weapon's disposition ought to be.

Yes or half my arsenal would have a 5/5 dispo.

Like who uses Karaks? 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

3 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

I thought DE said prior that they were against "making a slot machine" for platinum, yet this is exactly what riven rebalances can turn into.

 

I think it's readily apparent that DE doesn't nerf weapons by actual practical usage, just a general measure of how good they think a weapon's disposition ought to be.

 Tonkor rivens got buffed

 

But self damage is still the worst nerf ever

 

 

Harpaks the new best gun 

All 5/5 disposition weapons will reign supreme

 

Bring your mk paris

Your seers

Your latos and harpaks

Or braton.. And furis

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb ReshyShira:

DE owes me a product that I wish to play, else I'll go somewhere where my time and investment is better respected.  Unpopular decisions like these can drive players to quit, lower platinum purchases, etc.  Not good things if you want a game to turn a profit.  You gotta respect your customers.

We both know none of you will quit of these measly changes. Their only mistake was to wait this long and allow such disbalances in the first place.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb NoRainNoRainbow:

Making these changes was not the mistake, the mistake was not doing it every month since they released rivens.

Exactly.

[Wesgile]

2 minutes ago, JawNuts said:

Lesson every Warframe player needs to learn- Love nothing. 

Your best/fave frame, weapons, rivens could be great now but there's always a chance that it'll get nerfed hard (to the point of being unusable) in the future. We've seen it happened tons of time before. And there's nothing much we can do but move on sadly.

Unfortunately, this is a hard lesson to learn as we usually become very attached to something we've worked hard on. 

This is an overreaction.

Your stuff is still good even with the nerf, you probably wouldn't even notice if they had done it stealthily; they were just that much better than most others in the first place.

[Firster8]

I want sentinel weapons back some are 20k+ plat value now 😧 . The other changes are understandable.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Why not stop nerfing

And instead

 

 

 

Buff The Seer

I want harpak wraith now

:0

supra is dead to me

i have 5 supra rivens

[SpentCasings]

Honestly They should have probably capped some of the more popular weapons at 3/5

 

To be honest FEW of the weapons (at least that ive bumped into) that have a 1/5 or whatever actually deserve it. Guns like the Soma and what have you fell out of favor ages ago. The TIberon nerf I could understand. That thing was GODLY after the buffs, so 5/5 was a bit much. But for most of the guns now...no lower than 3. Supra definitly didn't need to be touched. 

[MentalDraco]

All terrible choices. 

[Truli]

12 hours ago, Ivar.C.Yormungand said:

Also, for all those that says rivens should be base only on stats and not popularity. It's based on BOTH. And for a reason, even if DE was the best developpers in the videogame industry, i don't think it is possible to create a perfect balance. Ultimately, with riven based on stats only you would only end up with a set of weapons which base stats+ riven stats are on the highest tier. That just screws the very purpose of rivens to begin with. The stats have to change. They HAVE TO;

so how would that affect you, that i am using most high tier weapons? how exactly is that bad? why would anyone want to use a weapon that does no damage? This is a PvE game, it doesn't need that much "balance" like a pvp game. how does balance affects you if i have a god lanka riven? how? i hate this mentality. 

[ReshyShira]

5 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

We both know none of you will quit of these measly changes. Their only mistake was to wait this long and allow such disbalances in the first place.

I dunno man, for some players, especially those more invested than I am... well... this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back for some people.  I've already started drifting away form warframe a bit due to Arbitrations and ESO going over about as well as a wet fart.

 

You don't want to make players feel like that their time investment has been unrewarding.  If, instead, Rivens retained their disposition as of time of dropping, or the like, then players will feel that they're being rewarded for their investment, rather than punished.

[TheGreenFellow]

25 minutes ago, Truli said:

why the need for "balance" this is not a PvP game. nobody is bothered that my rubico is powerfull, how does that affects you?

This was actually prior to my last response in this thread, but I want to answer this one.

It's not about "your" Rubico being powerful. It's about imbalances creating a domino effect of other imbalances.

Baseline weapons in this game are *not* balanced well. The mod system is so wildly chock-full of power-inflation, that it doesn't just take those imbalances and multiply them, it does so at an extraordinary exponential level.

In order to counteract this power gap, we've gotten armor & enemy scaling that is all but out of control. It's made boss encounters one of the most commonly complaints of the game, because of the difficult of creating a challenging encounter with such massive power gaps and inflation going on. It's why we have so many "invulnerability" phases. It's why the Eidolons can only be taken down with the help of Operators.

The balance of a game is the long-term health of the game. The more imbalances there are, and the longer they sit without attention being paid to correcting them, the deeper the rabbit hole will get, the longer the chain of dominoes will grow, and the worse future content will be for it.

And boy howdy, are there a lot of imbalances in Warframe right now.

Not that I'm saying this change really changed much. I think it did help but only in a quite minute way.

__
 

14 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

I thought DE said prior that they were against "making a slot machine" for platinum, yet this is exactly what riven rebalances can turn into.

I think it's readily apparent that DE doesn't nerf weapons by actual practical usage, just a general measure of how good they think a weapon's disposition ought to be.

I mean, from the moment I learned about it I recognized it for what it was; it's a slot machine that pretty much has the same flashing neon lights as any piece of junk found littering the floor of any given casino. If DE actually said they don't want to do that, well, they've got a lot of work to do to live by those words.

__

12 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

Yes or half my arsenal would have a 5/5 dispo.

Like who uses Karaks? 

Incidentally, I have a fetish for the Karak - not because it's much good, but (and this references my first post in the thread here) because it just *feels* nice to use.

[(PSN)xSweep66]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

You're actually right, apologies! That being said i still don't see Eidolon hunts lasting considerably longer because of these tiny changes, so i really don't understand the general uproar.

I think it's the the whole situation. I own most of the top tier Rivens that got hit. Im not super happy about it, but I'm an adult so I can handle it.

Our power level is so overwhelming that it's not so much an issue of losing strength...but the emotional, time and financial investment that people feel was taken from them. Couple that with the fact that meta weapons will remain at the top even with the downgrade... but lesser weapons were given no new meaningful life.

It's true that we were told Riven passes would happen, people simply feel burned because the frequency at which this has happened was so slow that it created many horror stories for loyal paying customers that have come out of nowhere. That doesn't seem like a good move to me considering the foundation of the DE studio is literally the love of our community. People just won't accept that DE did this.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

6 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

Supra definitly didn't need to be touched. 

I KNOW THIS

This is my bebe

Supra vandal and supra rivens

It was my favorite

It wasnt meta or uber strong

It was just a fun to use weapon

But dude 1.14 to 1.0

I dont even know what it means

I just know its bad

Especially with supras tiny 2.5% crit chance

[princelorn]

First things first, i am okay with riven disposition changes. It shpould be more recent, if any. BUT i have some issues.

Before the issues, i have to say, i have nearly 60 riven, some just for my favourite weapons, some for powercreep for meta weapons, some for make weaker weapons i like to make them shine. So i have all kinds. Some got nerfet, some got buffed, it is okay. For those, who cry about their investment...yeah, i invested too, so? We know, that sometimes dispositions will change, cause these how rivens are. Was it in elegant way? No. Was it cruel and uncalled for? Hell no. Rivens were made to make weapons more banaced. So they need to balance them more recently, not leave them untouched. Just next time maybe do it as a SYSTEM, when people can SEE the when and why cahnge come.

So what are my issues?

1. How the changes were made. Nobody told that it will come. Said nothing about, how recent changes will be. Maybe will ill have to wait another year, or two? Or will it be more recent?

 to react to the changes in usage, that new wepons make and disposition increase/decrease now start? No information. Just sudden changes and who now when next. That is not elegant.
 

Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

PRIMARIES:
Amprex: 0.96->0.85
Argonak: 1.0->1.1
Braton: 0.96->1.01
Burston: 1.18->1.25
Buzlok: 1.55->1.45
Cernos: 0.86->0.92
Dread: 0.82->0.9
Ferrox: 1.0->1.1
Grakata: 1.1->1.15
Hema: 1.0-> 1.1
Ignis: 0.79->0.7
Javlok: 1.0->1.1
Lanka: 1.1->0.95
Latron: 1.07->1.15
Miter: 1.6->1.55
Mutalist Cernos: 1.21->1.26
Opticor: 1.21->1.15
Panthera: 1.55->1.5
Paris: 0.96->1.05
Penta: 1.18->1.25
Quanta: 0.9->1.0
Quartakk: 1.2->1.25
Rubico: 1.1->0.95
Scourge: 1.0->1.1
Simulor: 0.5->0.7
Soma: 0.5->0.55
Stradavar: 1.18->1.25
Supra: 1.14->1.0
Tenora: 1.0->1.05
Tiberon: 1.5->1.3
Tonkor: 0.55->0.75
Torid: 1.14->1.2
Vectis: 1.0->0.92
Veldt: 1.0->1.1
Zarr: 1.0->1.08
Zenith: 1.0->1.1
Zhuge: 1.1->1.18

SHOTGUNS:
Arca Plasmor: 0.9->0.7
Astilla: 1.2->1.1
Corinth: 1.0->1.05
Hek: 0.55->0.7
Strun: 1.42->1.35

SECONDARIES:
Akbolto: 0.85-> 0.8
Aklex: 1.0->0.92
Aksomati: 1.26->1.2
Akvasto: 1.24->1.3
Atomos: 0.87->0.8
Azima: 1.35->1.25
Ballistica: 0.85->0.95
Brakk: 0.75->0.95
Bronco: 1.2->1.3
Castanas: 1.42->1.35
Cycron: 1.0->1.1
Despair: 1.24->1.3
Dual Cestra: 1.35->1.3
Dual Toxocyst: 1.19->1.25
Euphona Prime: 0.75->0.7
Fusilai: 1.2->1.3
Gammacor: 0.53->0.65
Hikou: 0.69->0.75
Hystrix: 1.0->1.05
Knell: 1.0->1.15
Kohmak: 1.2->1.3
Kulstar: 1.1->1.2
Lato: 1.51->1.4
Marelok: 0.5->0.65
Pandero: 1.0->0.95
Pox: 0.82->0.95
Pyrana: 1.2->1.0
Sicarus: 1.5->1.3
Sonicor: 0.5->0.65
Spira: 0.66->0.85
Twin Grakatas: 0.76->0.85
Twin Gremlins: 1.5->1.4
Twin Kohmak: 1.1->1.2
Twin Rogga: 1.0->1.15
Vasto: 1.53->1.4
Viper: 1.53->1.45
Zakti: 1.0->1.1

We hope that these changes help bring us closer to the original intention of Riven Mods, reinvigorating weapon diversity at a high level. We will continue listening to player thoughts regarding Dispositions, in hopes of better maintaining this system in the future. Thanks for reading Tenno, and see you on Venus!

EDIT: Wanted to clear up one comment I'm seeing lots of. Many of you have mentioned the Kohm as well as Detron - These weapons were marked for a reduction, but we opted not to change them, because some players depend on these Rivens to achieve 100% status chance. Because of this, small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is. 

2. The quoted part down above. It is not justice, and cannot be justified. And i say that as an owner iof TWO Detron rivens. It can be said about many weapons (but at least SOME OTHERS) that this or that riven stat really matters for the build.

For example Strun is a pellet shotgun too, and i am suro of it, not one people use rivens to tweak the build's status chances. But it got nerfed. SO, how is justice in that? (TBH i have a Strun riven too, that i bought recent, but luckily, the changes does not destroys my build).

Or some build maybe reach orange or red crits with that riven, and got nerfed.

The justice of the riven desposition system does not work, if u take out special snowflake  weapons, that "oh we dont nerf this, bc pople would be upset about their builds".

So all in all, it not works, if u take out 1-2-3 weapons and make them special, and take out of the balance.It is a VARY bad message.

 

[ReshyShira]

1 minute ago, (PS4)xSweep66 said:

I think it's the the whole situation. I own most of the top tier Rivens that got hit. Im not super happy about it, but I'm an adult so I can handle it.

Our power level is so overwhelming that it's not so much an issue of losing strength...but the emotional, time and financial investment that people feel was taken from them. Couple that with the fact that meta weapons will remain at the top even with the downgrade... but lesser weapons were given no new meaningful life.

It's true that we were told Riven passes would happen, people simply feel burned because the frequency at which this has happened was so slow that it created many horror stories for loyal paying customers that have come out of nowhere. That doesn't seem like a good move to me considering the foundation of the DE studio is literally the love of our community. People just won't accept that DE did this.

Honestly, this all could be avoided by just having rivens remember what disposition they are.  Then your investment into a riven feels validated if it gets nerfed for all future drops, rather than being punished for investing into something that later ends up being nerfed.

[TheGreenFellow]

6 minutes ago, Truli said:

so how would that affect you, that i am using most high tier weapons? how exactly is that bad? why would anyone want to use a weapon that does no damage? This is a PvE game, it doesn't need that much "balance" like a pvp game. how does balance affects you if i have a god lanka riven? how? i hate this mentality. 

I mean, that bit in bold right there is a great argument for why balance is in fact so important, you know?