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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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19 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Except that the weapons nobody uses even with god-tier rivens aren't ever touched or buffed.  All they do is nerf the "meta" rivens, even if the weapon's pretty trash without the riven carrying it's weight.

It's not really the rivens that are the problem, it's the fact that they're the epitome of what's wrong with warframe.  All their difficulty is in sheer tedium.  I'd much rather fight a couple rounds of really stupidly strong enemies than slog through a half hour of dangerous but not terribly so enemies.

That's...not true. Look again at the full list of changes, and go back through this thread and see for yourself how many people are questioning many of the changes to these weapons that "nobody uses".

That said...I'll kinda agree that rivens do highlight what's wrong with Warframe: there is a total lack of formulaic core balance, and this root problem causes a whole lot of painful symptoms.
__

17 minutes ago, Truli said:

This game doesnt need nerfs, it needs more chalanging enemies. And of course a player with 3k hours is gonna be powerful since he put that much time into the game. you;re afraid a noob will be weak compared to a veteran? that's natural. You keep using fancy words but not saying anything. you just give vague answers. there are weaker weapons and stronger weapons, everybody knows that, but you guys want to have veteran to use mk paris cuz because "it's not meta". Pls give me a real reason why these nerfs are taking place. And no more vague answers. 

I just explained to you why 'more challenge' is impossible to obtain. The game is already too far imbalanced to do so. That's readily apparent when EVERY boss *has* to have invulnerable phases or else becomes a joke like The Sergeant is.

Again, you're entirely missing the point when you say things like "noob compared to a veteran". That's neither here nor there. You're just another one of the victims of the Blizzard World of Warcraft power fantasy fallacy.

The harsh reality is that Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing, and that the 'power fantasy' is one of the very worst things to design a game around.

It's not about veterans using a Mk 1 Paris.

p.s. Dismissing everything I've told you as "vague" or "fancy words" isn't an argument.
 

15 minutes ago, Truli said:

no, you don't get the system, the weaker weapons are low mr requited, they are for new players to get used to the game playing lower content. That is the reason why weak weapons exist. But that doesnt mean that me, a veteran with 3k hours should use those weapons since i invested a lot of time to have good gear. That makes no sense. You want everybody to use the weakest weapons but those were designed for new players. 

And here again, you've got the wrong of it. Weaker weapons don't exist for "new players to get used to lower content". That's completely got the cart before the horse. The new players have these weaker weapons and weaker content because the game has a horridly inbalanced power fantasy going on.

There shouldn't *be* a "bad gear" vs "good gear" dichotomy going on. What it should be is "which of these different yet all effective choices do I like best for the particular bit of content I'm about to engage in?"

THAT would be interesting. That would be a fun choice to make. Far more so than "well, I brought high level gear so I win again, woopdeedoo".

___


I'm going to say one more thing before leaving this thread, and this is for you, DE.

Rivens were a mistake. Whatever the intentions, what's been accomplished is merely giving players yet another way to extend the power gap, and make all the pre-existing balance problems even worse.

It's possible you can salvage something out of it; you could potentially use it as one more lever to bring parity to the many weapons we can use, for instance.

But even ignoring the issues of balance and stats, there's many things about Rivens that aren't right.

There's far too much RNG (RNG to obtain, RNG on what weapon it will turn out to be, RNG on what the stats are, RNG on what the stats might become - none of that RNG should be there); there's no agency given to the player - no control over the result (imagine the ways we players could experiment if we could pick and choose the stats we wanted? for instance, I'd want to see how well status chance affects many weapons as opposed to, say, raw damage & multishot).And it takes a rather ponderous amount of investment of time/resources just to keep pulling that lever.

Combine that with having no regulation for trading - no centralized index of offers for buying/selling, forcing players to rely entirely on third party tools to achieve some kind of standard - and you get the current mess we have now...and the outcry any time you so much as touch one of those levers affecting this house of cards you've constructed.

What you choose to do from this point onward, I'm not sure I can help advise with; I just hope my perspective helps expose that house of cards for what it is and thereby helps you decide what best to do with it.

Edited by TheGreenGunner
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After the few tweaks that occurred for some weapons more than a year ago, and since dispo of recently primed 5/5 weapons weren't adjusted at all, i thought that DE abandoned the idea of mass riven disposition change across the board. Especially given the absolute lack of communication about it, even in the game itself. I thought it was now safe to assume that rivens were overall in a stable state. I was obviously wrong.

Expanding and perfecting my riven collection was what occupied me between the increasingly sparse updates and events. I rolled them thousands of times and collected more than a million kuva. Sometimes also bought very specific ones. Oh, and maxed my slots, bought 2 years worth of resources boosters, and countless formas and potatoes for weapons i would not have been interested in otherwise.

That was a huge time investment. Now sunken cost fallacy may be well, a fallacy, my interest in rivens dropped to zero nonetheless and is very unlikeley to recover. With it also vanished almost any long term incentive to play, or spend platinum. This sudden, inconsiderate, and badly thought out change is the straw that broke the camel's back. I know this feedback will probably just be more fuel for the sick joy so many people seem to get from the disappointment of others here, but i don't care much anymore. Have fun with that.

Edited by Robolaser
typo
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1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, but the balance merely shifts. Power / "more" is relative. Some things will always be more popular (and thus lucrative) than others, even if they meet their goal of balancing things out. So i don't see them hurting plat trades honestly. (Especially since they boosted the rarity of Sentinel mods with the very same update... Call my a cynic but i don't see any reason for that other than inflate their prices, especially considering we had the very same scenario already with the Artax).

I could be wrong here but I think this particular shake up could potentially hurt plat sales for DE. I'm probably wrong, but I think it's fair to be suspicious. I imagine a lot of the angriest players are people who buy lots  and lots of plat. That whole "fool me once" thing is particularly real when money comes into play.

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1 minute ago, TheGreenGunner said:

That's...not true. Look again at the full list of changes, and go back through this thread and see for yourself how many people are questioning many of the changes to these weapons that "nobody uses".

That said...I'll kinda agree that rivens do highlight what's wrong with Warframe: there is a total lack of formulaic core balance, and this root problem causes a whole lot of painful symptoms.

I meant weapons that nobody uses even with rivens.  Aklato for instance, who uses that?  Pretty much nobody.  A riven that's god-tier cannot salvage it, but yet it gets no tweaks to improve it.  However you'll see weapons that are only good with a riven getting nerfed at the digression of DE (or not, if you're the Kohm or Detron, because double standards).

 

 

Honestly, all of this would have been avoided by simply keeping already in play rivens the same, and tweaking the stats of all future rivens.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Truli:

So according to your logic, if i buy a Ferrari with 100 000 euros, then the company from Ferrari take my motor and changed it with a seat one, that is fair right?

If it says so in the contract: Yeah.

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12 hours ago, Viges said:

Can't wait for MELEE 3.0 DRAMA already :crylaugh:

many will quit by then 😄

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Il y a 3 heures, Leafcoin a dit :

This is what happens when disposition remains the same for too long. People invest long-term without looking forward and expecting nothing to change. They spend $ for plats and buy expensive god roll rivens with absurd prices. Sudden changes are made and even though it's small changes they will feel cheated, simply because it's not what they had before, meaning a decrease in value

I still don't understand why people complain about things like the Lanka, Rubico or Arca Plasmor disposition. Those weapons are still strong no?

 

 

 

You don't understand all good players need more power to play hight lvl +80 to 150 or more and Dev decrease the stat we dont need to play only in lvl 40-50 in this game and look how much time spend to roll this mod's with kuva ok and Shame on you and people like you 

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Well my favorite weapon Buzlok (accept their TOUCH)TM after i re-roll it 110 times that equal 369950 kuva or 154 hours and you know what  i will re-roll it again 100 times and i will still happy with it no matter what happens.

Why ?  my smeeta get buff with the new Tek Enhance mod to balance the nerf with 40 second orange crit instead 30 second and 156 second double everything instead 120 second!!!

People you must now open your's mind to think in multiple dimension instead in liner thinking.  Explore, Think , Teamwork , Observe

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12 hours ago, Ivar.C.Yormungand said:

Also, to all of those whining about the nerfs, have you even checked your actual stats? Even on the harshest changes, the differencies are still minor. Why are you all acting like crybabies over it? Claiming you will uninstall the game or that you wasted thousands of plats. I thought this community was more mature than the League Of Legends one, and even they don't cry as much after a patch...

To be honest, if they really wanted to make a shift in the way people use and price rivens, nerfs and buffs had to be even harsher. As it is, I don't think it's gonna change a yota.

It's my f$%%$^## right to whiny about the nerfs since i spend good hours into getting a good riven and farming a lot of kuva for it. It;s my time, my money, my effort!!!! i want to whine as much as i want ok? this is not fair and nobody like to feel cheated

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

I imagine a lot of the angriest players are people who buy lots  and lots of plat.

Like i said i'd rather imagine them as the people who own lots and lots of plat (and not because they regularly purchase it directly (this role is mostly filled by newish-intermediate players) but rather from ingame sales... like Rivens. 😉 ).

Anyway: We shall see. And in the meantime it's important to remember:

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

That whole "fool me once" thing is particularly real when money comes into play.

DE didn't fool anyone. Again: The intention and volatileness of the system was communicated clearly and openly from the get go.

Edit:

And for the record: Right from the start i expressed my doubts about the whole system being more of a plat-sinky bandaid rather than a true-hearted attempt at game balance.

Basically: Rivens suck. And we fell for it. Life goes on.

Edited by Kotsender_Quasimir
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2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Like i said i'd rather imagine them as the people who own lots and lots of plat (and not because they regularly purchase it directly (this role is mostly filled by newish-intermediate players) but rather from ingame sales... like Rivens. 😉 ).

Anyway: We shall see. And in the meantime it's important to remember:

DE didn't fool anyone. Again: The intention and volatileness of the system was communicated clearly and openly from the get go.

Except that Volatileness wasn't actually something used in practice, and DE knows full well that whenever they do this it causes more outrage and makes the player base upset on the whole.

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hace 3 minutos, Kotsender_Quasimir dijo:

Like i said i'd rather imagine them as the people who own lots and lots of plat (and not because they regularly purchase it directly (this role is mostly filled by newish-intermediate players) but rather from ingame sales... like Rivens. 😉 ).

Anyway: We shall see. And in the meantime it's important to remember:

DE didn't fool anyone. Again: The intention and volatileness of the system was communicated clearly and openly from the get go.

How many changes have we seen since the riven disposition was introduced? No more questions.

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This was a pointless change. It doesn't make anyone want to use the other weapons available. Just because you need the most popular weapon Rivens didn't make is want to use the other weapons in our arsenal. If you want to change something then remove the negative stats that Rivens may have listed. Negative stats should never have been added in the first place if the goal was too encourage different weapon usage.

 

Also why does the Amprex have one of the biggest if not the biggest drop on the list? Just because players have recently started to use it shouldn't be a valid reason especially since it wasn't as popular as other weapons for the past few years. Honestly please rethink this change and if you do keep these bad changes then at least remove the negative stats from all signs or give the option to keep which stats you want on the riven. There are plenty of options so please do this for us. 

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14 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

EDIT: Wanted to clear up one comment I'm seeing lots of. Many of you have mentioned the Kohm as well as Detron - These weapons were marked for a reduction, but we opted not to change them, because some players depend on these Rivens to achieve 100% status chance. Because of this, small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is

What kind of twisted logic is this?  I depended on my rubico riven to give me a certain multishot and reload speed - both of which have a huge impact on my rubico but you didn't stop there.

In the end however, it doesn't bother me that the riven dispositions in general are "rebalanced", but it does bother me that they are rebalanced retroactively.  I think that is really a pretty lame thing to do.

  • People have spent hundreds to thousands of plat on rivens with certain stats, and you just stole that from them.  They would not have paid as much for it with lower stats, and they very well may not have bought the riven at all
  • Other people have spent HOURS farming kuva to roll rivens to get certain stats and you just pissed in their face and laughed at their efforts. 

If you want to rebalance weapon riven dispositions fine - but dont go retroactively changing stats.   So there will be a few true "god" rivens floating around.  They won't trade often, those that paid up for them are happy, those that farmed for days for kuva to reroll them are happy.

If you are going to keep rebalancing rivens ALREADY REWARDED - give us the option to keep the rolls, or reset to 0 and refund the kuva.  A lower disposition means I  might not want the same stats - and may have meant I could have stopped rolling my riven at 2 rolls instead of 100. 

 

Just like other some other reworks DE has done in the past, this shows there is zero respect for the effort and time players have put forth.

 

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Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Like i said i'd rather imagine them as the people who own lots and lots of plat (and not because they regularly purchase it directly (this role is mostly filled by newish-intermediate players) but rather from ingame sales... like Rivens. 😉 ).

Anyway: We shall see. And in the meantime it's important to remember:

DE didn't fool anyone. Again: The intention and volatileness of the system was communicated clearly and openly from the get go.

It was communicated but look at this thread. People feel fooled. It became unclear when it never happened. When Tiberon Prime came out. When weapon balance passes came and went. When DE had every reason to hit Rivens before  any of this happened. Why couldn't they drop Tiberons disposition a week before Tiberon Prime came out? Why couldn't they tell us before or after the weapon pass that Rivens will be updated some time after the changes so the whole thing felt fresh? Why save the most controversial moment in recent history of this game for the same day it will be generating overwhelmingly positive press (Fortuna)? 

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15 minutes ago, Crimson_Ruby_313 said:

Happy now? Players suck each other's blood on sentinel weapons -___- 

This is all according to plan 😉make sentinels weapons rare so people will spend tons of plat to buy them, like they have done with rubico, lancka, amprex ecc.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb ReshyShira:

Except that Volatileness wasn't actually something used in practice, and DE knows full well that whenever they do this it causes more outrage and makes the player base upset on the whole.

 

vor 2 Minuten schrieb TheBronx:

How many changes have we seen since the riven disposition was introduced? No more questions.

So you are telling me these were the first disposition changes ever?

Well even if they were: I'd doesn't change anything. Was waiting so long a mistake? Most definitely! Are DE accountable in any way? Nope.

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13 hours ago, the_grogeek said:

Vectis, rubico and lanka are nerfed
Now are we gonna hunt the eidolons with stones ? Cmon DE we never use Sniper elsewhere than PoE --"

The crit % on my Vectis riven went from 160% to 144%, it still kills Eidolons dead lol.

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24 minutes ago, Alienami said:

Do you want to see rivens selling for something like 10,000 plat in a few years or less?

Because this is how you create massive supply and demand with ultra rare quality rivens that are grandfathered to stay "as is" are a huge huge huge huge mistake.

I would have no issue with this.  you can list it, and maybe some rich scrub with more money than sense buys it, but by in large this hurts NO ONE.

on the other hand, if you spend 100's of hours farming kuva for a riven for your personal use, to get stats just so, then have it ripped out from you it just sucks plain and simple. I never buy rivens for plat - but i do invest heavily in kuva for rivens I unlock if I like the weapon.  and this is a slap in the face for the hours i've spent farming kuva.

 

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4 hours ago, SweetScreams said:

This was a terrible move, you don't go in and mass lower the value of items that you yourself have made worth real money. This will make people go to a not happy place for some time now, which is why they pulled it during the expansion in hopes it will mitigate its damage.

Players made the rivens worth real world money, not DE. Technically you can trade a godly riven for an ammo drum. But players have decided its worth in plat. Be careful who you blame here. 

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hace 14 horas, [DE]Connor dijo:

EDIT: Wanted to clear up one comment I'm seeing lots of. Many of you have mentioned the Kohm as well as Detron - These weapons were marked for a reduction, but we opted not to change them, because some players depend on these Rivens to achieve 100% status chance. Because of this, small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is. 

AND????????

If the disposition is based on popularity then rebalance EVERY SINGLE WEAPON IN THE GAME ACCORDINGLY.

Can't believe what I am reading, honestly.

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The salt in this thread is Dead Sea grade...

The fallacies are biblical...

 

THIS WAS AN ECONOMIC BUBBLE and Gambler's Fallacy run wild in the community! Then the regulators start waking up and doing stuff about it...SHOCKER!

(Dot Com bubble, Housing Bubble... any of those ringing any bells?)

And people got fleeced by the fallacy that nothing bad happens because nothing bad happened prior to now or just in this specific area of the economy...or to them personally...therefore nothing bad will continue to happen...and then it does happen...and they lose their minds and shift the blame!

 

Gambling machine and bubble in riven prices was OBVIOUS.

 

People put time and money into it anyway and then got mad...as if they never heard of gambling and economic bubbles...

...and that it wasn't public knowledge Riven Dispositions are allegedly based on weapon popularity and usage...

...and that DE likes to nerf things too hard sometimes or not at all for a long time then hit that thing with a sudden nerf...

 

Take the lessons learned here and move on... the world is NOT known for stability and well done governance that doesn't symptom chase and over react instead of actually treating root causes of issues with well thought out plans...

 

Edited by Alienami
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vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xSweep66:

Why couldn't they drop Tiberons disposition a week before Tiberon Prime came out? Why couldn't they tell us before or after the weapon pass that Rivens will be updated some time after the changes so the whole thing felt fresh? Why save the most controversial moment in recent history of this game for the same day it will be generating overwhelmingly positive press (Fortuna)?

No objections.

They are and always have been acting rather schizo about anything balance related. If that's part of a strategy or laxness: I let you be the judge.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)cerial-killert said:

The crit % on my Vectis riven went from 160% to 144%, it still kills Eidolons dead lol.

For now. They will lower the disposition again later, this is just the start. Don't expect to keep 3 on snipers that are used by so many players.

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