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Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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6 minutes ago, SymmetricalDocking said:

Miter and Viper are primarily used without rivens. Many players run them with just their augment. Buzlok has a large cult of users, riven or not, at mid-MR. Strun? Yeah, no idea there...

None of those become completely worthless with a small disposition change like the Kohm would, though.

Should they just change how shotgun status works? Yes. Does what they did show some intelligence? Also yes, some.

 

If you had usage statistics, I bet Lanka has massively high in-mission stats just from people sitting in PoE for 45 minutes. I think they should have used the same discretion they used above to not nerf it as we go into Fortuna.

I've never seen people use those weapons besides with a riven or memeing (or just being so new that they don't know better, like the seer).

 

5 minutes ago, Eljureo said:

Because for some reason they reach sick prices on the market and are probably to good.

These weapons are very Meta in endgame content, matched with a powerful riven they give you little incentive to use anything else in a PoE hunt.

Stated Riven intent is to make other weapons useful and popular, not the meta ones.

That's just the thing then, they're balancing rivens based on price of the rivens, not how much they're actually used (or how much the weapon is used without a riven).

 

 

13 minutes ago, Eljureo said:

I would love to see some usage stats. What weapons were used by Veterans(MR16+) for how many % of time played, during a set period.

And also some methodology, my second most used weapon is PENTA, untouched from 2015.

I'd also like to see the (with riven) and (without riven) statistics.  Because if a weapon that's only seeing wide usage with a riven is being nerfed in it's disposition than I think DE has utterly failed in it's goal of rivens.

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il y a 44 minutes, Eljureo a dit :

I am happy with this change.

Even better would be if we had an actual real time change say every month.

I want to see Lanka, Gram, Rubico at 0.5 until they become unpopular.

Every month update.

thanks for your opinion pleb

"people are better than me so i'm glad they are being robbed their hard work"

fortunately it doesnt work like this IRL

Edited by kellerak
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13 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Thank you for this. I've been waiting a long time for riven disposition to get defibrilated. Frankly you should do these montly, so that people didn't get too comfortable.
I mean, sure, this barely hit me in any negative way - almost all of these changes are a + to me. Maybe except for Sicarus, but that one was completely warranted.
So yeah. Looking up to rebuilding some of the forgotten weapons. Once i get rivens for them that is...

the problem is that for many many people this changes are annoying, since they put a lot of time and effort and money into them. But if you're so selfish to only care about your "fun", then ok, but you;d be playing alone this game since many will quit it soon. 

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2 minutes ago, COATTOQUALUNQUE said:

no, if they nerfed miter and buzlok so the kohm should be nerfed as well, its more popular than miter and buzlok so its only fair,  and no they should not change status on shotguns because even the lame kohmak with a riven with 100% status and 4 60/60 can shred a lvl 155 corrupted bombard in no time, since pellet shotguns with 100% status are all strong as #*!%

You seem confused. Miter is very viable and used without a riven because of its augment and only got a tiny nerf, Buzlok is also used without rivens. Neither of them are bad or unused without rivens like the Kohm.

Why are you trying to falsely equate them? What is your motivation for ignoring the line of reasoning? Logic can be applied, DE is not full of robots.

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99% of this community's posts don't look at any sort of player-wide data before they post a comment that trashes riven changes.  DE has an analytics team that would've been consulted for insights across the entire player base before they made such a wide spread change.  The fact that they called out other exceptions that weren't actioned YET because it wasn't appropriate means this series of changes were measured and planned.  

Stop being butthurt you paid too much for a riven.

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10 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

I've never seen people use those weapons besides with a riven or memeing (or just being so new that they don't know better, like the seer).

...

Because if a weapon that's only seeing wide usage with a riven is being nerfed in it's disposition than I think DE has utterly failed in it's goal of rivens.

You're underestimating the miter big time. I see it at least once a week in sorties. Test it in the simulacrum fully built without a riven.

Fully agree on the second part.

Edited by SymmetricalDocking

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3 minutes ago, BNQQ-EN- said:

99% of this community's posts don't look at any sort of player-wide data before they post a comment that trashes riven changes.  DE has an analytics team that would've been consulted for insights across the entire player base before they made such a wide spread change.  The fact that they called out other exceptions that weren't actioned YET because it wasn't appropriate means this series of changes were measured and planned.  

Stop being butthurt you paid too much for a riven.

I don't think DE even releases such information, it really feels like DE's just guessing at weapon usage based on riven prices more than anything.

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Just now, SymmetricalDocking said:

You seem confused. Miter is very viable and used without a riven because of its augment and only got a tiny nerf, Buzlok is also used without rivens. Neither of them are bad or unused without rivens like the Kohm.

Why are you trying to falsely equate them? What is your motivation for ignoring the line of reasoning? Logic can be applied, DE is not full of robots.

you are wrong on about everything you wrote, they need to revert these changes or nerf kohm as well

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb ReshyShira:

No, if DE respected the time investment players put into it, they'd have left existing rivens unchanged and modified all future rivens. 

have u seen all the threads about totally silly riven dispositions ? rivens have been dynamic from the very start and if someone invests into rivens then he/she has to remember that dispositions can be changed so if u invest u accept that fact or dont touch rivens at all, easy as that. dynamic dispos are not a secret, DE mentioned it many times. everything in the game can be buffed/nerfed, just look at warframes. every game has that and rivens are 1 single mod which can make the right weapon 2x as strong as compared to without and the outcries are far worse if an already strong weapon receives a 5/5. imagine a nerf only applying to future rivens...the prices will explode and ppl cry about regular 10k+ prices for such because no riven dropping afterwards can roll that amount so what this would result in really unique mods where u either have had the luck to get a silly roll early before a nerf or not. that would make power creep and price growth even more silly than it already is and some few lucky ppl have truly unique mods which they could sell for multiple 10k of plat, prolly even more. just look at artax rivens...0 real use but a collectors item. imagine that generally applying to useful, overstatted rivens totally out of any balance in comparison to the game's current state. no thank you~

if u complain about +/- 0.2 riven dispo max, mostly around 0.1 then i wonder how hard u complain when there is really reason to do so.

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Another thing another user brought up, but the timing of these nerfs coincides with the release of let's just say... strong weapons.  Perhaps this is DE's way of trying to make players switch to the new weapons so they can make easy plat whilst devaluing the existing options.

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Just now, ReshyShira said:

Another thing another user brought up, but the timing of these nerfs coincides with the release of let's just say... strong weapons.  Perhaps this is DE's way of trying to make players switch to the new weapons so they can make easy plat whilst devaluing the existing options.

Take that conspiracy theory and put it alongside removing sentinel rivens moments before making new popular moa pets that use sentinel guns, and it starts feeling plausible.

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Gerade eben schrieb ReshyShira:

Another thing another user brought up, but the timing of these nerfs coincides with the release of let's just say... strong weapons.  Perhaps this is DE's way of trying to make players switch to the new weapons so they can make easy plat whilst devaluing the existing options.

assumption. people can always make assumptions. its a big yearly update and bringing a riven balance is logic. either now or with mainline before. makes 0 difference for ur assumption. the nerfs/buffs arent really too noticable so i would highly doubt it.

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2 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

have u seen all the threads about totally silly riven dispositions ? rivens have been dynamic from the very start and if someone invests into rivens then he/she has to remember that dispositions can be changed so if u invest u accept that fact or dont touch rivens at all, easy as that. dynamic dispos are not a secret, DE mentioned it many times. everything in the game can be buffed/nerfed, just look at warframes. every game has that and rivens are 1 single mod which can make the right weapon 2x as strong as compared to without and the outcries are far worse if an already strong weapon receives a 5/5. imagine a nerf only applying to future rivens...the prices will explode and ppl cry about regular 10k+ prices for such because no riven dropping afterwards can roll that amount so what this would result in really unique mods where u either have had the luck to get a silly roll early before a nerf or not. that would make power creep and price growth even more silly than it already is and some few lucky ppl have truly unique mods which they could sell for multiple 10k of plat, prolly even more. just look at artax rivens...0 real use but a collectors item. imagine that generally applying to useful, overstatted rivens totally out of any balance in comparison to the game's current state. no thank you~

if u complain about +/- 0.2 riven dispo max, mostly around 0.1 then i wonder how hard u complain when there is really reason to do so.

so basically fu%^^^ the time and effort someone put into kuva farming or riven challanges, why give us rivens in the first place if they are gonna change it entirely? nah, this means this game doesn't appreciate the effort you put into it, so there is not use to play it anymore since the "fun" will be replaced with frustration. if this was their intentions, kudos!! 

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2 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

have u seen all the threads about totally silly riven dispositions ? rivens have been dynamic from the very start and if someone invests into rivens then he/she has to remember that dispositions can be changed so if u invest u accept that fact or dont touch rivens at all, easy as that. dynamic dispos are not a secret, DE mentioned it many times. everything in the game can be buffed/nerfed, just look at warframes. every game has that and rivens are 1 single mod which can make the right weapon 2x as strong as compared to without and the outcries are far worse if an already strong weapon receives a 5/5. imagine a nerf only applying to future rivens...the prices will explode and ppl cry about regular 10k+ prices for such because no riven dropping afterwards can roll that amount so what this would result in really unique mods where u either have had the luck to get a silly roll early before a nerf or not. that would make power creep and price growth even more silly than it already is and some few lucky ppl have truly unique mods which they could sell for multiple 10k of plat, prolly even more. just look at artax rivens...0 real use but a collectors item. imagine that generally applying to useful, overstatted rivens totally out of any balance in comparison to the game's current state. no thank you~

if u complain about +/- 0.2 riven dispo max, mostly around 0.1 then i wonder how hard u complain when there is really reason to do so.

Weapons have certain target numbers they need to reach to gain certain effects, such as Orange Crits or 100% status.  A small change in disposition can completely alter whether or not a Riven currently is good enough or if it even can be good enough.

 

Also, who's really hurt by deprecated mods existing, like Primed Chamber?  Sure most people cannot afford that, but it's also not hurting anyone by existing.

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11 hours ago, sixmille said:

Then don't put all this "time and effort" in something that was advertised as evolving from the very begining. It's been said from day 1 that riven dispositions would be updated. Did DE do it often enough?  Not at all. Does it mean you couldn't see that coming? Again, no.

These changes made many weapons a lot more interesting like the Penta or the Latron. It's up to you to give them a try. Rivens are like trash, they can be found everywhere, all the time. I have so many I'm just selling veiled ones these days since I'm getting so many. At least 2-3 a week, that's insane. You shouldn't treat rivens as valuable items because they are not.

You can fu&&%%ng blame someone for not thinking ahead" this will change" and try to make better a weapon he loves. This is fk up. It;s not the player's fault for putting time and effort into something since it was avainlable in the game to do so. Your mentality is crap. 

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Why not make the weapon usage stats (with riven & without) public like drop tables? People then can't call foul when they invest too much into a riven for it to get nerfed.

We still need separate dispositions for individual weapons and not just each family of weapons... surely that isn't too much to ask for? We shouldn't see strong prime weapons become the new meta overnight simply because of their significantly weaker base versions. And every weapon that undergoes re-balancing should have their disposition reset to neutral (like particularly every weapon to date).

I'd be happy for rivens to be removed altogether. Their implementation was handled poorly and no one asked for it or the mess we have now, but there's no turning back i guess. Probably best to plough on through with more regular disposition changes so no one can ever again claim shock and disappointment in a system that was always intended to be dynamic based on nothing more than popularity, which in itself is flawed. The negatives of rivens far outweigh the positives.

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7 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

I don't think DE even releases such information, it really feels like DE's just guessing at weapon usage based on riven prices more than anything.

They don't need to release this information for it to exist and for them to action it.  I think it was Rebecca that was going through stats of WF usage by MR the other day and the entire stream's audience derided her for looking at the data.  Teams/people who look at data exist, DE as a digitally native company cannot afford to make decisions across their executive team without being informed by data.

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Gerade eben schrieb ReshyShira:

Weapons have certain target numbers they need to reach to gain certain effects, such as Orange Crits or 100% status.  A small change in disposition can completely alter whether or not a Riven currently is good enough or if it even can be good enough.

 

Also, who's really hurt by deprecated mods existing, like Primed Chamber?  Sure most people cannot afford that, but it's also not hurting anyone by existing.

it doesnt matter if u have 3% orange crit chance or 5%. u need reliable orange crit stats depending on the weapon type and many cant really reach them and those who can dont care about +/-4%. on paper u notice the numbers but thats it. if u play vs high level enemies that tiny difference in average dps is pointless. dmg alone is useless and the only weapon which could arguably be affected by the nerf status chance wise is strun, but only could. search for one example where ur issue applies, np, it surely exists, but its unralistic critique imo. still everyone knows about dynamic dispos so again: u knew and invested so dont complain. i have a lot of rivens myself, i could complain too but i dont think its justified when the changes were so small. if they were more dramatic, yea, i'd agree...as they are its not imo.

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40 minutes ago, TheBronx said:

Então, algumas notas para ver se alguém concorda com isso ou não:

1. É isso que devemos esperar no futuro? Nervos maciços riven sem aviso prévio, misturado com enormes atualizações? Qual é o roteiro? Isso vai acontecer agora mensalmente ou anualmente? Kohm rivens nunca serão nerfados porque são especiais? Qual é o plano? Já é difícil aceitar esse nerf, mas é mais difícil quando você nem entende o que o # *!% Está acontecendo ou qual é o objetivo se houver algum ...

2. Esta não é a maneira de comunicar isso. Apenas uma lista de números que não fazem sentido. Qual é a correlação desses números com disposições divididas? Quais são os dados que suportam essas mudanças? Porque agora? Por que mudar ao mesmo tempo em que você lança o Fortuna? É porque você quer que seja menos barulhento assim? Não é assim que você deve comunicar grandes mudanças no futuro. E DE Steve anunciando ao vivo em fluxo algumas horas antes também não ajudou ...

3. Muitas pessoas investiram tempo e / ou apostaram em itens que agora valem muito menos, para dizer isso de alguma forma. Você sabe disso, todo mundo sabe disso. Não deveríamos mudar esses itens por causa disso? Eu não sei, talvez, talvez não. Mas eu tenho certeza sobre algo: uma mensagem no jogo dizendo "ei, nós apenas nerfamos seus rivens, checamos e nos divertimos!" não é uma forma gentil e enfática de tratar seus jogadores, especialmente os de longo prazo. Você deveria ter tido tempo para encontrar uma maneira de compensar um sucesso tão grande. Talvez presentear algum Kuva, rivens velados ou até mesmo plat para aqueles afetados pela mudança. Talvez abrir uma maneira de trocar esses recursos por recursos para que você possa pelo menos obter algo para rivens que não são mais viáveis se você quiser. Talvez apenas um "Desculpe" teria ajudado. Eu não sei, mas definitivamente algum tipo de compensação teria sido apreciado, então sabemos que você se importa, pelo menos um pouco. A mensagem no jogo e este tópico não mostram nenhum respeito pelo esforço que muitos jogadores colocaram em seus rivais.

Agora é tarde demais e o estrago está feito. Que vergonha em você DE.

but I only buy perfect, incalculable my loss of hours and money, I wonder that, this game is not focused on PvP, what trust we have continues to play and spending our money. People who do not care, just say something DE keeps game with people who spend real money on it. I was one of those people who enjoyed the game, but after that I'm done.

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the logic would have been to up the less used weapons twice as much instead of nerfing the good ones, or to fix all the disposition to a default one depending the weapon type, this is just a cheap move to please the jealous pleb who has been harrasing the devs for ages because this guy in chat wouldnt sell them a rubico riven for 500pl.

on top of that people who are happy about the changes are even more $&*&*#(%&ED because my riven will never prevent you from having fun or to kill ennemies yourself it's none of your business. you can say whatever you want but this community is just disgusting. if you don't like rivens don't play them at all and don't wish for other's frustration

Edited by kellerak
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5 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Do the new Dispositions effect the stats of existing rolls on Rivens?

yes they do .. sadly.

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Il y a 1 heure, COATTOQUALUNQUE a dit :

ah and i forgot to add they also nerfed viper riven disposition i own a decent viper riven for my viper wraith the gun is simply bad and even a riven cant make it good but i liked the look and the handling and it has a neat augment, but OH VIPER IS TOO STRONG THEY HAD TO NERF THE DISPOSITION AND NOT EVEN BOTHER RAISING SOME STATS ON IT

MEANWHILE HERS THE NEW KITGUNS, LOOK HOW BALANCED THE STATS ARE, YOU DONT EVEN NEED PRIMED MODS TO MAKE THIS THING OVERKILL AT HIGH LEVELS

72su5PI.png


That's around 90k dps with a crit build,a punchtrough mod and no riven 😮

Edited by Robolaser

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9 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

They do.

It would have been wiser imo to only apply the disposition nerf to newly rolled rivens. Much less outrage.

Dispositions are attached to the weapon family... it simply wasn't designed to work the way you describe.

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