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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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4 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

You're actually right, apologies! That being said i still don't see Eidolon hunts lasting considerably longer because of these tiny changes, so i really don't understand the general uproar.

Because people spent money on a meta-modifier, and they expect that modifier to be permanent despite DE having stated for over two years that rivens are subject to change, and buyer beware.

4 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, this all could be avoided by just having rivens remember what disposition they are.  Then your investment into a riven feels validated if it gets nerfed for all future drops, rather than being punished for investing into something that later ends up being nerfed.

All this does is make 'legacy' rivens that much more expensive and screws new players out of ever having a chance of getting weapon parity, and also screws high concept weapons into permanently lowered dispositions. 'One pip' rivens like Tigris and Brakk and Hirudo are meta nerfed because of the weapons stats and mechanics, not because of usage. In the years since Gradivus, I've seen no other players besides myself main a brakk, and I've seen less than what I can count on two hands of usage in game, because the base called for a six forma build even before Prime mods were a thing, yet the mechanic of 'burst dps from hell' remained and so did the holy crap pellet count of the weapon, and that's why the disposition is low, and will remain so, even though the weapon is basically never used. Same for Hirudo, whose advantages are pretty obvious, which is why the disposition is what it is.

You don't get your cake and eat it too, and the fact you spent the cost of five actual games on a piece of code for one weapon out of 400 is entirely on you, in addition to highlighting why rivens are not necessarily an optimal tool for balance regulation especially in a mechanical model where in-game performance directly effects the game's economy so absurdly hard.

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4 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Because people spent money on a meta-modifier, and they expect that modifier to be permanent despite DE having stated for over two years that rivens are subject to change, and buyer beware.

All this does is make 'legacy' rivens that much more expensive and screws new players out of ever having a chance of getting weapon parity, and also screws high concept weapons into permanently lowered dispositions. 'One pip' rivens like Tigris and Brakk and Hirudo are meta nerfed because of the weapons stats and mechanics, not because of usage. In the years since Gradivus, I've seen no other players besides myself main a brakk, and I've seen less than what I can count on two hands of usage in game, because the base called for a six forma build even before Prime mods were a thing, yet the mechanic of 'burst dps from hell' remained and so did the holy crap pellet count of the weapon, and that's why the disposition is low, and will remain so, even though the weapon is basically never used. Same for Hirudo, whose advantages are pretty obvious, which is why the disposition is what it is.

You don't get your cake and eat it too, and the fact you spent the cost of five actual games on a piece of code for one weapon out of 400 is entirely on you, in addition to highlighting why rivens are not necessarily an optimal tool for balance regulation especially in a mechanical model where in-game performance directly effects the game's economy so absurdly hard.

That's the key point, the riven system is a mess of ideas that do not achieve the goals its stated to achieve. They need to rethink it or just buff weapons at base level and move rivens to the correct "nice bonus" territory instead of making or breaking some weapons. Will that make it so some weapons still don't get used, yes but its not like they're achieving their goal now anyways.

At the core of the problem is that there are far too many "non-negotiable" mods on the weapon that rivens should replace instead of work alongside of. So for example a good riven would give the effects of serration+ a little extra so that you can take that off the weapon and serration would then not be allowed on the same mod as the riven. Rivens should be a 3 in one mod that opens up slots without actually adding them instead of just damage on top of damage. Another way to do this is of course to just buff weapons to include serration and those mods like it baseline but then people get pissed because they have prime mods etc for damage. Rivens should be an opportunity to add things you usually can't to a gun.

At the very least though I advocate for more of a move on unused weapons riven dispositions so that the meta shakeup they're looking for actually happens instead of this lukewarm non-movement.

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These changes are beyond garbage i expected better buffs and no nerfs so you guys at de get a big fat FFFFFFFF failing to keep my expectations and nerfing my best weapons i want these fixed please 

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Danggit my Arca plasmor riven was the only riven that when I link in chat sometimes people will find me but now it changed so much now I only hope to get some plat of the blind people or I am gonna be broke

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8 hours ago, FollowTheFaceless said:

They balance nothing, cause no one plays unpopular weapons even with them. 

That's their loss. That's why there are people dying against level 30 enemies. People are sheep blindly following whatever their favorite YouTuber recommends them instead of trying out things by themselves and learning what they personally like and are good with. My Attica paired with my Banshee is able to deal over 1 million damage per shot. With the rate of fire I get with Primed Shred that's well over 5 million damage per second. Does anyone play with that? No. Does it completely destroy everything and anything? Absolutely bloody yes. And that's only a single example. You can buy those rivens piss cheap for 20-50 plat.

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I’m pretty upset with the removal of Sentinel Weapon Rivens. Since Moa companions can use Sentinel Weapons it was inherently very bad timing to execute this proposal on the Riven Pool. That’s not to say I’m not thankful about being able to keep the Sentinel Weapon Rivens that I have now, I’m just saddened that if there is a balance pass for them and a growing minority of players having an interest in boosting their Robotic companions’ dps DE cut down a big potential opportunity here.

Also, I was kinda hoping that Twin Kohmaks and Simulor Rivens would at least get a bigger buff based on their performance levels. C’est la vie.

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)F34REDBEFORE said:

My arca plasmor build now sits at 99.8 status chance, thanks for that...

Arca Plasmor doesn't fire pellets. Do you even Warframe?

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3 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

Yes some of my weapons got a tiny mit worse than before, but other Weapons got buffed so I don't se any Problem with the Changes.

So what really did this change accomplish then...because as you say the changes in either direction weren't very substantial? Most of my fun weapons took a hit (except Cycron), but it's not a big deal (my Supra has a 2.1 second reload instead of 2.0 now, etc.). Only thing this change appears to have accomplished is to annoy folks that invested a lot of time into rivens; I wasn't one of those people.

3 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

All DE should have done from the Start was a Monthly/Weekly Riven recalibration so people wouldn't have gotten so used to constant Riven Values.

With how much effort people put into modding stuff for a particular outcome, I fail to see how having it change weekly would be remotely fun. Let's say my Supra changes to a 3.0 second reload next week, that's going to mess with my enjoyment of the weapon to the point where I'd probably just remove the riven entirely and slot a reload speed mod. I don't know, guess I don't get the whole riven thing; frequent disposition updates certainly won't make rivens and kuva farming more appealing...

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I should think that buffing the vulkar rivens back to what they were, would put it back on par with the other snipers in the game.

Edited by xiljax
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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

So what really did this change accomplish then...because as you say the changes in either direction weren't very substantial? Most of my fun weapons took a hit (except Cycron), but it's not a big deal (my Supra has a 2.1 second reload instead of 2.0 now, etc.). Only thing this change appears to have accomplished is to annoy folks that invested a lot of time into rivens; I wasn't one of those people.

With how much effort people put into modding stuff for a particular outcome, I fail to see how having it change weekly would be remotely fun. Let's say my Supra changes to a 3.0 second reload next week, that's going to mess with my enjoyment of the weapon to the point where I'd probably just remove the riven entirely and slot a reload speed mod. I don't know, guess I don't get the whole riven thing; frequent disposition updates certainly won't make rivens and kuva farming more appealing...

The thing is that this is just a first step. The popular idea was to gradually change the dispositions over time to give players time to adjust. So instead of nerfing the Lanka into the ground, DE could make a series of smaller changes over months to soften the impact on the market. This seems like the only fair way to nerf them given the years of neglect that dispositions have had.

Edited by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

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19 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Based on these parameters, here is the complete list of changes we have made:

  Hide contents

PRIMARIES:
Amprex: 0.96->0.85
Argonak: 1.0->1.1
Braton: 0.96->1.01
Burston: 1.18->1.25
Buzlok: 1.55->1.45
Cernos: 0.86->0.92
Dread: 0.82->0.9
Ferrox: 1.0->1.1
Grakata: 1.1->1.15
Hema: 1.0-> 1.1
Ignis: 0.79->0.7
Javlok: 1.0->1.1
Lanka: 1.1->0.95
Latron: 1.07->1.15
Miter: 1.6->1.55
Mutalist Cernos: 1.21->1.26
Opticor: 1.21->1.15
Panthera: 1.55->1.5
Paris: 0.96->1.05
Penta: 1.18->1.25
Quanta: 0.9->1.0
Quartakk: 1.2->1.25
Rubico: 1.1->0.95
Scourge: 1.0->1.1
Simulor: 0.5->0.7
Soma: 0.5->0.55
Stradavar: 1.18->1.25
Supra: 1.14->1.0
Tenora: 1.0->1.05
Tiberon: 1.5->1.3
Tonkor: 0.55->0.75
Torid: 1.14->1.2
Vectis: 1.0->0.92
Veldt: 1.0->1.1
Zarr: 1.0->1.08
Zenith: 1.0->1.1
Zhuge: 1.1->1.18

SHOTGUNS:
Arca Plasmor: 0.9->0.7
Astilla: 1.2->1.1
Corinth: 1.0->1.05
Hek: 0.55->0.7
Strun: 1.42->1.35

SECONDARIES:
Akbolto: 0.85-> 0.8
Aklex: 1.0->0.92
Aksomati: 1.26->1.2
Akvasto: 1.24->1.3
Atomos: 0.87->0.8
Azima: 1.35->1.25
Ballistica: 0.85->0.95
Brakk: 0.75->0.95
Bronco: 1.2->1.3
Castanas: 1.42->1.35
Cycron: 1.0->1.1
Despair: 1.24->1.3
Dual Cestra: 1.35->1.3
Dual Toxocyst: 1.19->1.25
Euphona Prime: 0.75->0.7
Fusilai: 1.2->1.3
Gammacor: 0.53->0.65
Hikou: 0.69->0.75
Hystrix: 1.0->1.05
Knell: 1.0->1.15
Kohmak: 1.2->1.3
Kulstar: 1.1->1.2
Lato: 1.51->1.4
Marelok: 0.5->0.65
Pandero: 1.0->0.95
Pox: 0.82->0.95
Pyrana: 1.2->1.0
Sicarus: 1.5->1.3
Sonicor: 0.5->0.65
Spira: 0.66->0.85
Twin Grakatas: 0.76->0.85
Twin Gremlins: 1.5->1.4
Twin Kohmak: 1.1->1.2
Twin Rogga: 1.0->1.15
Vasto: 1.53->1.4
Viper: 1.53->1.45
Zakti: 1.0->1.1

 

 

 

My fun reactions to stuff:

PRIMARIES:
Amprex: Makes sense
Argonak: Don't know what that is~
Braton: Would have expected it to be higher (because it's just a pretty bad gun)
Burston: Fun surprise
Buzlok: Don't know what that is~
Cernos: Thought it would've been lower..
Dread: Really thought it would've been lower! (I remember it being a top tier bow)
Ferrox: Don't know what that is~
Grakata: Clem.
Hema: Guess I got a better riven now...
Ignis: Expected
Javlok: Don't know what that is~
Lanka: Ehhhhhhhhhh...i don't use this weapon unless it's with a mag or an Eidolon hunt
Latron: We don't talk about this...
Miter: Lol what? People are using this? I've been trying to build it because I thought it'd be a fun gimmick gun for mag
Mutalist Cernos: Definitely thought this would be lower
Opticor: Angelic chorus~
Panthera: Eh
Paris: This definitely needs more
Penta: Ah...this weapon exists...
Quanta: Don't know what it is~
Quartakk: Don't know how strong it is~
Rubico: I thought this would be nerfed into the ground.
Scourge: Pleasantly surprised...
Simulor: Well....guess it's a mid-tier gun now....
Soma: Still don't know how to make this gun as OP as people say it is...
Stradavar: Don't know what it is but fun name~
Supra: Expected
Tenora: Don't know what it is, but it sounds fancy~
Tiberon: Expected
Tonkor: Nothing will save it from the nerf...Q.Q
Torid: Don't know what it is~
Vectis: Ehhhhh...I'll begrudgingly accept it? Nah...
Veldt: Belt...
Zarr: Mmmmmmmm...might need a tiny more
Zenith: Don't know what it is~
Zhuge: Like the instrument?

SHOTGUNS:
I don't care for shotguns except for tigris (which was surprisingly not nerf :P)

SECONDARIES:
Akbolto: Expected
Aklex: Surprised...but also expected
Aksomati: No idea what this is~
Akvasto: Hmmmmmm
Atomos: Forgot this existed...
Azima: I don't feel like people actually use this gun because it's good. I think people use this gun because it's a free reward used in low to mid tier gameplay.
Ballistica: Appreciate it
Brakk: I have no idea what you are...
Bronco: Expected more
Castanas: I mean...I can still kill myself with it...
Cycron: Never seen it
Despair: Don't like it
Dual Cestra: Should've put a ring on it
Dual Toxocyst: Oh!? i think this can be appreciated.
Euphona Prime: Expected but not necessary.
Fusilai: I don't know what this is...
Gammacor: I mean...I don't have this riven, but my build for this gun rips apart level 100 enemies....so...undeserved...:P
Hikou: Surprised!
Hystrix: Hysterical?
Knell: Thought it was used a lot more....
Kohmak: Don't know what that is~
Kulstar: Surprised
Lato: Never used it~
Marelok: Appreciated
Pandero: Expected
Pox: Forgot this existed
Pyrana: Expected
Sicarus: Expected
Sonicor: Surprised! not sure why though
Spira: Best knives??? So surprised
Twin Grakatas: Clem.
Twin Gremlins: No idea
Twin Kohmak: NO IDEA
Twin Rogga: Surprised Idea
Vasto: Expected~
Viper: Surprised cause this gun sucks
Zakti: Have no idea what that is

 

Removal of Sentinel Rivens....

@!#?!

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

The thing is that this is just a first step. The popular idea was to gradually change the dispositions over time to give players time to adjust. So instead of nerfing the Lanka into the ground, DE could make a series of smaller changes over months to soften the impact on the market. This seems like the only fair way to nerf them given the years of neglect that dispositions have had.

Again that's the large issue though, you nerf small but BUFF the unused weapons big. That way though players lose something they also gain opportunity to work in a new space. This just feels like nothing is going on except you took an "L" on what you already had. There isn't enough gain. Players may have known that DE might eventually change rivens but DE left this for far, far, far too long with no changes. The correct way to handle it is to mitigate player loss somehow, it doesn't have to be huge but no one reacts excitedly to nerfs and they never will, this is exacerbated by the utter lack of changes on the part of DE when they said it would be constantly evolving as a system and not once per year when they get around to it.

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18 hours ago, Wildrider123 said:

Good to see these changes finally are in. So many people lost sight in what rivens were meant for and simply turned it into another way to make their meta weapons even more meta.

Exactly. I was waiting for this update. They always said it was to bring low end weapons up, but really all it did was push the meta further above the rest.

I regularly trash most of my riven mods without even cracking them mainly in silent protest. Lol I don't even bother trading them. Maybe now I'll consider using them if things have balanced better.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

The popular idea was to gradually change the dispositions over time to give players time to adjust.

So basically death by a thousand cuts, sounds great?!? Who is this popular with exactly?

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Somehow i expected a riven disposition change but i didn't know when it was going to happen. A lot of my rivens got changed positively or negatively, but i will use them all as much even after the changes anyways so let say it doesn't affect me too much but unfortunately that's not the case for everyone. One thing you can do is to change riven disposition more often, say like every 3 months and give us a warning before it happens so you don't surprise players who are fairly new to the riven world when it happens.

I would just make two other suggestions for the riven system by the same occasion :

Owned rivens should keep their stats after riven disposition changes so players who spend currency on them in older times keep their investments but if a player decide to reroll a riven with " legacy stats " then its old disposition will change for the current one.

Being able to block certain stats from rolling or being able to add/remove one stat from rivens via items that you can get from enemies/mission rewards or either purchase them from a npc. These " crafted mods " should be less powerful than the disposition of a said weapon if you decide to do so. For example say like you rolled a Paracyst riven with 207.9% Damage and 106.1% Multishot, you want to craft Critical Strike Chance on it because you don't feel lucky enough to get these three stats of the same strength by rolling your riven more times or because you want to keep your remaining kuva for other rivens or either you don't want to buy another riven with equivalent stats; then the best solution for you is to craft it but by doing so this particular stat will be less powerful than the two initial stats as a trade off.

Edit : Sentinel weapons should have been buffed instead of removing their riven if you think they were lackluster.

Edited by (PS4)Silenceform
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I don't know if I like the change itself, but still agree to already said: it needs to be more regular.

Let's say every month or so... or when some certain weapon got it's use shifted significantly. And no "holy cows", please! Both Kohm and Detron are an adult weapons in their own rights! 😉

Sentinel rivens... Enough to say that I play with sentinel always disarmed for over half a year now. And no riven was good enough to change that.

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33 minutes ago, (PS4)F34REDBEFORE said:

My arca plasmor build now sits at 99.8 status chance, thanks for that...

Your AP build uses rifle status, not shotgun. Nice try though.

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5 hours ago, Robolaser said:

After the few tweaks that occurred for some weapons more than a year ago, and since dispo of recently primed 5/5 weapons weren't adjusted at all, i thought that DE abandoned the idea of mass riven disposition change across the board. Especially given the absolute lack of communication about it, even in the game itself. I thought it was now safe to assume that rivens were overall in a stable state. I was obviously wrong.

Expanding and perfecting my riven collection was what occupied me between the increasingly sparse updates and events. I rolled them thousands of times and collected more than a million kuva. Sometimes also bought very specific ones. Oh, and maxed my slots, bought 2 years worth of resources boosters, and countless formas and potatoes for weapons i would not have been interested in otherwise.

That was a huge time investment. Now sunken cost fallacy may be well, a fallacy, my interest in rivens dropped to zero nonetheless and is very unlikeley to recover. With it also vanished almost any long term incentive to play, or spend platinum. This sudden, inconsiderate, and badly thought out change is the straw that broke the camel's back. I know this feedback will probably just be more fuel for the sick joy so many people seem to get from the disappointment of others here, but i don't care much anymore. Have fun with that.

Something else you dont see mentioned and I should have brought up.  This is actually counter productive. The riven system actually made me buy weapons, BAD weapons SPECIFICALLY because I wanted to get a specific riven, with a specific roll on it To make it amazing. Do you guys really think I'd have a 5 forma standard Boar right now if it were not for a riven?

In that respect, rivens DID actually encourage weapon diversity. My sobek is another example, because its got 5/5 dispot and i got a multishot AND status chance roll with a negative all at once. Its amazing and fun to use now and can murder sortie stuff with ease. Long time Karak fan. I love my wraith dearly even before it was buffed and everyone said it was a trash rifle, and specifically hunted for a riven for it, not because it NEEDED it, but because it was one of my favorite off meta rifles to use. 

 

HELL ive even got a FLUX rifle ffs. slash/damage/multishot riven. Do you acutally think i'd build/forma/potato a FLUX RIFLE as a keeper unless i had that riven?  It even SOUNDS bad....

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At almost 30 pages of feedback now, I think this deserves an official reply from someone at DE. I hope those of us who are displeased with the recent changes keep making our voices heard.

And if you like the recent changes, make your voice heard, too! ...but keep your schadenfreude to yourself please.

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Ok, so never get attached to anything in Warframe because it could be changed over time… and if we spend our time playing a game which should be fun, the entire point of a GAME, we should be ok with any changes. According to this logic the game is pointless, why would anybody even care to invest time into a build or go to the simulacrum to see how a weapon preform? No point of spending any plat buying stuff because maybe in a few weeks/months it is trash and sits in you inventory. That just shows a core problem of WF, use it, level it and throw it away or keep it if it is any good or you like it. But hey maybe if more people like it we need to change it.

 

 

Vets had fun building their weapons and this “lottery” had something new to offer. We have so many useless mods in this game and so many builds are almost identical… why even have Rivens for the Arca Plasmor, Rubico, Lanka etc. if these are considered op anyway? I would really like to understand the intention here, if you plan was to balance then bring the bad weapons up to the level of the better ones, not toning down the good weapons to match it, it just takes away options of something YOU implemented in the first place.

 

 

Maybe it is about time to hit the brakes with new weapons almost every update and fix problems first instead of adding even more weapons which could potentially be op again with the right build. It is a never ending story and we will never get it “balanced” this way.

Edited by KentuckyKid_69
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54 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

My Attica paired with my Banshee is able to deal over 1 million damage per shot. With the rate of fire I get with Primed Shred that's well over 5 million damage per second. Does anyone play with that? No. Does it completely destroy everything and anything? Absolutely bloody yes. And that's only a single example.

You really can't base a weapons usability on the use of a niche loadout, i mean i main Banshee and snipers but not everyone does, that's ridiculous.

Any weapon can deal millions of damage with a well built Banshee, but you don't see a lot of people running around with Banshee because it's not optimal for the majority of game content, you see people using it for the challenge and because it's fun to oneshot everything and deal millions of damage and that doesn't make the weapon or the frame (which is a glass cannon weapon platform)overpowered.

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12 hours ago, (XB1)LordBolt said:

Parei com esse jogo, DE sabe do meu histórico de compra de platinas essas compras era só por causa dos rivens. É triste.

quanto drama, imagina tivesse sido um nerf real, maioria quase nao faz diferença no final, afinal o jogo nao tem nada tao forte pra todo esse dano

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