Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[SpentCasings]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

You know, I get that people are upset that their time/plat/kuva investments have been devalued here and there (also enriched in others, btw), but what strikes me as odd about so much of the whine about it is that everyone knew the whole time that this is how rivens work.

Most of the weapons that got nerfs to their rivens are already quite powerful even without rivens, and the stronger dispositions were intended to bring niche weapons into viability. The fact they even exist for the meta weapons is just bonus. To treat it any other way is to fail to understand what DE is trying to do with rivens.

Because the astilla was Meta.....

[Tinklzs]

I think sentinel rivens should be reinstated. Also, I think all weapons (every. single. one.) should be changed based on how they PERFORM, not on how popular they are. And common sense should be used on them as well. If the lanka is dealing 15k dmg with a riven at dis 2 and the vulkar wraith is dealing 15k dmg at dis 5. Then they shouldn't change. 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

This is completely baffling.

Some weapons are barely used at all and get nerfed anyway. Astilla why? But Kohm gets a pass?

And heres what I want to know are rivens for weapons like tiberon going to get reduced by .2.... repeatedly until they're almost useless?

This doesnt solve anything and makes things worse just because.

[KeineKunst]

Long overdue, kudos.

Please do these more often, like maybe once every 2 months or so. And don't just take popularity into account, but the meta as well. Some weapons still have completely gimped disposition from when they were meta seventeen years ago, and some lower performance newer weapons still have the cautious 3/5 disposition of their introduction.

[tucker_d_dawg]

7 hours ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

For now. They will lower the disposition again later, this is just the start. Don't expect to keep 3 on snipers that are used by so many players.

they basically nerfed all the snipers that anyone used - vectis/lanka/rubico.  its not like there are a huge number of sniper rifles in the game to choose from and snipetron needs a 6 disposition to make it any good and even then it'd probably still suck.

[(PSN)nekokujo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Neglect isn't a justification to leave disposition broken though. And many dispositions were increased as well. You make it sounds like DE only nerfed everything, which is simply not true. There were also several popular weapons that were not touched. So overall many weapons had their effectiveness increased so the players did get something to offset the loss, it will just take time for them to adjust to these changes.

I personally haven’t seen the supposed buffs reflected on any of my rivens on PS4 (e.g., Hek).

And yes, the Kohm and Detron weren’t touched, so are they nerfing based on power, popularity, or by whim? Buffed weapons aren’t any more effective or more fun to use than they were two days ago, they just have better stats on their rivens. Weapons like the Arca Plasmor or the Soma or the Lanka are designed well and fun to use, and that is why people use them. All this has done is deflate the enthusiasm many people had for their version of an endgame.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

8 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You know, I get that people are upset that their time/plat/kuva investments have been devalued here and there (also enriched in others, btw), but what strikes me as odd about so much of the whine about it is that everyone knew the whole time that this is how rivens work.

Most of the weapons that got nerfs to their rivens are already quite powerful even without rivens, and the stronger dispositions were intended to bring niche weapons into viability. The fact they even exist for the meta weapons is just bonus. To treat it any other way is to fail to understand what DE is trying to do with rivens.

"But DE was trying to do the thing" doesnt mean the thing was a good idea. I think it was a very bad idea from the start.

[tucker_d_dawg]

11 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

o treat it any other way is to fail to understand what DE is trying to do with rivens. 

all DE is trying to do with rivens is get people to buy resource doublers to farm kuva faster.

if they were interested in balancing weapons, they'd balance weapons.

 

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Would you rather they just drop the disposition by 3+ for items that are proven to be too strong in the current meta?

Yes, I would...if my riven is fated to end up being not worth slotting, just pull the band aid off DE.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I'm sure you will enjoy watching riven prices crash overnight.

As I don't buy/sell rivens I would be indifferent to any changes to the market...but thanks for thinking about my feelings. 🙂

[lukinu_u]

Wait... what ? Vasto disposition nerf ?
This is definitely one of the less used secondary weapons in the game. I only used back in the day negative critical damages was a thing and even with a perfect roll, some sniper still had a better DPS (not damage per shot).

Some of the changes here seems really weird and were unecessary on some weapons (both buff and nerf), while some weapons that deserved bigger changes in disposition only got something small.

[AprilUofA]

I'm confused... According to the listed numbers, the Twin Grakatas got a bit of a buff:

Twin Grakatas: 0.76->0.85

But ingame they have gone from a disposition of 3 pips to 2, and I lost at least 14% damage off of my riven?

[(PSN)KAZZILLA99]

I'm pretty annoyed about the vectis, the only reason it's used as much as it is, is because it was given out for free. if not it wouldn't have been used as much or people would've just used the lanka or rubico.

[George_PPS]

42 minutes ago, Dougram said:

"Dispositions are based roughly on the weapon’s usage among mid-to-endgame Warframe players, with handmade tweaks where appropriate.

This is the part that bugs me the most..."HANDMADE TWEAKS".  This make makes me think they are nerfing weapons based on a few people overperforming because of one mod.  If this is the case then they are basically telling us that if you are lucky enough to get a great riven on a high end weapon, use that weapon, and do well with that weapon, then we are going to nerf that riven. This isn't a nerf for everyone else who has the weapon, just for those who were lucky enough to find a riven and do well with it. So now I feel like if i do well with any weapon/riven combo that ill lose even more than riven disposition to those "handmade tweaks".

I've never been this bummed out by a game expansion before.  I was watching Steve's stream with such excitement only to have it killed when I saw the dev workshop notes.  I wasn't too put off when he said the riven disposition was getting updated since that was expected but the "handmade tweaks" thing really bothers me. I think these "tweaks" are really just nerfs to a few overperforming players and not to overperforming weapons.

 

 

Fortuna's hype has been amazing and was going to live up the hype but this riven nerf then immediately poured buckets of cold water on our heads as we entered Fortuna. This is the worse nerf ever.  

[GrimAtrament]

i feel that its going to get to the point that its not worth building riven anymore since your just going to nerf anyone that does well. there are plent yof weapons people use regardless of riven mod. yet your nerffing them because of that.

 

shouldn't Riven mod disposition be based off  weapon stats rather then something that is not constant like player popularity?

[LupoDWolf]

1 hour ago, (XB1)LordBolt said:

my friend is not drama, your time being thrown away and money real, lost a lot of money and time with this Nerf, as I said I am collector rivens perfect. after this Nerf game lost sense to me.

ok, not a nerf, just people being stupid to spend a buckload of money on something that they knew would change and then geting mad

[Dark5niper]

i dont understand if Riven disposition is based on the frequency of use how can it be that 90% of the rivens got nerfed? Pretty sure this isn't mathing correctly. I suppose this was just an intentional nerf to nearly all rivens. 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Leave the kohm alone

 

Why is everyone whining about a gun they dont use?

What about supra

 

Supra got it the worst

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

I have an idea

 

Why not make every rivens dispo

1.6

[(PSN)MintalotUK]

all tese ppl saying we knew about rivens ,where was it announced ? i started the game 210 logins ago and not once have been told or read rivens are subject to change n before all ppl say its on forum until the nerf i didnt visit the forum ,like most ppl i load the game n just play and in the length of time ive played this game ive bought over 10k plat just to upgrade n keep the guns powerful and rolls on rivens as well as buying rivens ,from what i know now ive wasted all the money on this game and time buying reource boosters to roll rivens ,yes the game is very good but tbh de im doing plague star to get forma n then back to destiny 2 as bungie care 

[(XBOX)LordBolt]

45 minutes ago, LupoDWolf said:

ok, não um nerf, apenas pessoas sendo estúpidas para gastar um monte de dinheiro em algo que eles sabiam que mudaria e depois ficando louco

Show me where I was saying that rivens would be nerf.

[FrostDragoon]

I'm going to paraphrase some of the misunderstandings and failings here.

"But X weapon wasn't meta."

"Meta," in this context, only refers to player usage. In the case of the mentioned Astilla earlier, it's a relatively new weapon, so lots of people were using it if only for the MR. Yes, I recognize the flaw in this approach, and that's something I think people should be bringing up rather than most of the complaints I've seen so far.

 

"What do you mean, 'Everyone knew?' I didn't (supposedly) because I don't use online resources to learn about the game."

As they say in law, "Ignorance is no excuse." You have an internet connection, so you have the resources available to inform yourself. Whether you are legitimately ignorant, or just feigning ignorance, it's your responsibility to understand, so I'll repeat: Everyone knew about it. It's been known since the first time they did this after rivens released, so assuming they wouldn't repeat this behavior is unbelievably naive and illogical.

 

"Nobody uses X weapon. Why nerf it?"

Your personal experience is not what they base their decisions on. They have internal usage data that they use as a guide for this, but ultimately they also can arbitrarily nerf whatever they feel like. That is their prerogative. I know that sounds unpleasant, but that's reality. Do they risk some people quitting over this? Probably. Will it hurt the game in the long term? Probably not.

 

"They nerfed most of the weapons, so it can't be based on usage."

There are actually a lot of weapons that aren't even listed, so if you're getting this notion from the ratio of weapons that got nerfed compared to buffed, you're looking at an overall skewed pool, because it is not inclusive of all weapons.

 

That all said, I think it is a flawed notion that the popularity of a weapon is correlative to its power. For example, Ignis is a fairly strong weapon, but is easily outclassed by most MR12+ weapons that aren't simply MR fodder. However, it is wildly popular because it is cheap, accessible, has a strong mod that goes along with it which is also easy to get, and the weapon is adequate for most content on the star chart if you're willing to put a couple forma into it. This is where the complaints should be focusing.

[kellerak]

Il y a 2 heures, Kotsender_Quasimir a dit :

How on earth does the inability to read and the readiness to ignorantly throw obscene amounts of plat down the drain equal "better"?

Anyway you superhumans have fun throwing your tantrums over some measly percentage loss on your weapons, i'll be off to explore the Vallis.

🙂

"you have a Lamborghini and I have a discount bike, what do you mean the lambo is "better"?"

you know some people like me just grind and roll, a riven moded weapon will always be better than a standard one so yeah better is the word

"MEASLY" congratz you are bad at maths

[Xolgys]

i dont get all that crying...+/- 500 average dps dont matter at all. people are so clawed to their paper dps numbers i wonder how many do actually play lv 80+ conten where good builds/riven actually start to matter an even then they are not a necessary must have. i get it, i also only roll/get rivens which are very good and high rolled stats wise, but come on...with the wrong build it doesnt matter if u throw 50k dps or 75k dps on paper at a heavy gunner lv 125+ if she has all her armor. +/-500 are absolutely not important at all, even if u add a 0.

how many people actually use primed cryo or primed heated outside of a slash/viral or innate corrosive weapon where high radiation would still be a meh idea. these influence paper dps more than +/- 0.2 on a riven dispo.

also its well known and no secret that dispositions will receive changes at some point. its also known that riven dispositions are dynamic and hence affect even already existing ones so why do people complain ? if u dont want to be at the risc of having lower stats on a riven u bought for 1mil plat or rolled 2k times then dont invest in rivens to begin with. u dont need rivens for the basic star chart. they are endgame mods to make especially worse, "non-meta" weapons very very strong.

vor 12 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

That all said, I think it is a flawed notion that the popularity of a weapon is correlative to its power. For example, Ignis is a fairly strong weapon, but is easily outclassed by most MR12+ weapons that aren't simply MR fodder. However, it is wildly popular because it is cheap, accessible, has a strong mod that goes along with it which is also easy to get, and the weapon is adequate for most content on the star chart if you're willing to put a couple forma into it. This is where the complaints should be focusing.

this is wrong in so many ways. ignis wraith grows stronger the more enemies u hit because its an AoE cone. u cant compare it to most other weapons which lack that sort of AoE paired with hybrid viability and the properties of a beam weapon and its status application. its popular for a reason.

also popularity does reflect strenght in a way. people always prioritise whats best, especially when they are still newer players. its hard to take some stats into theoretical account which also includes more special passives so directly rating a weapon and balancing by that is also open to mistakes and especially wrong judgement. with the way it is DE basically lets players decide how good a weapon actually is by taking usage statistics as a base, assuming that on average popular weapons are automatically better, which is true and u notice that ingame and in region chat when people frequently ask what the best abcdefg is. this also takes more special or difficult to rate stats into account so it has its upsides, as well as downsides and i would argue that the downsides arent as plenty as the alternative's so it is the better choice if u really think about it. on first glance it might look worse, but its not.

[(PSN)nekokujo]

25 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'm going to paraphrase some of the misunderstandings and failings here.

"But X weapon wasn't meta."

"Meta," in this context, only refers to player usage. In the case of the mentioned Astilla earlier, it's a relatively new weapon, so lots of people were using it if only for the MR. Yes, I recognize the flaw in this approach, and that's something I think people should be bringing up rather than most of the complaints I've seen so far.

"What do you mean, 'Everyone knew?' I didn't (supposedly) because I don't use online resources to learn about the game."

As they say in law, "Ignorance is no excuse." You have an internet connection, so you have the resources available to inform yourself. Whether you are legitimately ignorant, or just feigning ignorance, it's your responsibility to understand, so I'll repeat: Everyone knew about it. It's been known since the first time they did this after rivens released, so assuming they wouldn't repeat this behavior is unbelievably naive and illogical.

"Nobody uses X weapon. Why nerf it?"

Your personal experience is not what they base their decisions on. They have internal usage data that they use as a guide for this, but ultimately they also can arbitrarily nerf whatever they feel like. That is their prerogative. I know that sounds unpleasant, but that's reality. Do they risk some people quitting over this? Probably. Will it hurt the game in the long term? Probably not.

"They nerfed most of the weapons, so it can't be based on usage."

There are actually a lot of weapons that aren't even listed, so if you're getting this notion from the ratio of weapons that got nerfed compared to buffed, you're looking at an overall skewed pool, because it is not inclusive of all weapons.

You do a good job at countering some of the arguments brought up here by my fellow posters, but I still don’t see how these changes have a positive effect on the game. Why not just buff the weapons that need buffing (or rework them to make them more appealing)? 

[Artekkor]

7 часов назад, Truli сказал:

so basically fu%^^^ the time and effort someone put into kuva farming or riven challanges, why give us rivens in the first place if they are gonna change it entirely? nah, this means this game doesn't appreciate the effort you put into it, so there is not use to play it anymore since the "fun" will be replaced with frustration. if this was their intentions, kudos!! 

Rivens were made to support weak weapons, not to create overpowered monsters. Unfortunately, exactly that happened after the massive rebalance of primary and secondary weapons which caused a lot of them to be fairly strong, while rivens were still balanced after their outdated underpowered state.

Then same thing applies to releases of improved versions of weapons such as Rubico Prime which received rivens for normal rubico, which resulted in quiet the power creep because rivens were not adjusted then and there. Same happened to prisma gremlins too.

Riven disposition was always meant to be a dynamic system that helps unpopular weapons to see the light of day, not to make fairly strong weapons even stronger. Unfortunately that's exactly what's happening way too often because the power dynamic of weapons shifts more often than riven disposition, which causes dysynchronisation (as shown by Rubico Prime).

If you make a decision - against all odds, signs and advices - to put a LOT of effort into something clearly overpowered (rubico riven for rubico prime, when its obvious that its going to get changed for all the right reasons) that's absolutely on you.

I put 60 rolls worth of kuva into my Quartakk rivens which i have 2 of. And this change gave more value to all that grind i went through.
I would argue that this would be a victory on my part because i treat rivens the way they're supposed to be treated - bandaids for underpowered good-for-nothing weapons, which i actually secretly love. Like Quartakk, Stuba, Magnus, Viper, Twin Vipers, Kraken, Vulkar... The list goes on and on.