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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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Nope, bad idea DE. Good job on Fortuna, but this riven thing is not the way to go. Smart on going small, but slippery slope. You can't just change stats on something that might have been real world bought/traded (not to mention expensively bought). If you want to start doing this you need to remove them from trading. In reality you should have changed them monthly from when they launched, but we are way past that now. That's my opinion.

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6 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

And that's FINE that they like it. I just dont think its intended by the riven system, so i simply think that the outrage is misdirected because people misunderstood the purpose of rivens (partially due to DE's fault at communicating that purpose properly).

I get what you are saying, and in some cases like the TIberon, and Inevitably the Gram rivens I -Completly- understand. 

 

My point is, the handling of this was HORRIBLE. Very little warning just BLAM thank you ma'am kiss your Beloved Plasmor Good bye. Best case would allow us to keep our current rolls/stats. Rivens are dynamic? Fine, but give us a bit of return on investment by keeping the previous riven rolls, and do this more often with some consistency so people like me who didnt see this coming wont be so gutted. 

 

And have some of the changes dont make sense. Supra? Astilla? Plasmor? None of those nerfs made sense other than the plasmor being popular for eidolons? and Being used a lot by Sayrns since It synergizes well with popping spores. My plasmor build wasnt even super-crit-meta or whatever the build is for plasmors that everyone uses. My Riven just had Damage and punch. AND I LOVED IT, because that gun reminded me of a BFG10k from quake. I even painted it black and green. Watching that massive green ball swipe entire Konga lines of Grineer was FUN. Wasn't overpowered, or game breaking, was just pure clean FUN. And it got Gimped. 

Edited by SpentCasings

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Except, it's been over 600 days since the last time dispo was updated, (before this) and if you haven't been playing that long you would have NEVER seen anything explaining dispo in game and lets not be intellectually dishonest and act like everybody who has bought a riven in the last (almost) 2 years should be expected to dig through wiki articles, the forums, and (very) old dev streams just for fun.

DE created this problem through inaction and poor communication but that didnt stop them from taking money from this the whole time.

I could see how you might feel that way, but if you didn't believe this was going to happen eventually, you either didn't think about it critically, or you fooled yourself through wishful thinking. As for people who may not have known, I don't buy the ignorance excuse. Anyone who read the wiki page for rivens would have stumbled across the Disposition section:

Quote

The randomized attributes for Riven mods are affected by Disposition, a modifier provided by the system that collates the usage popularity of a given weapon across the entire player base. Disposition strength controls the range of the attributes available for each weapon. 

...

If a weapon's disposition is changed, the attributes on already unveiled Rivens for the weapon will be automatically adjusted to match the new disposition. e.g. AkLex disposition reduced from 5 to 3 in Hotfix 19.8.1

What's "intellectually dishonest" is pretending that this is somehow hard to find or "hidden" in any manner. It's common knowledge.

Quote

As for "muh entitlement" would you be saying the same thing if they rerolled the appearance of every kavat and kubrow in the game just because? After all. Muh terms of use.

You're not comparing apples to apples here, so this analogy doesn't hold up. However, I would point out that Warframe as a game has seen countless changes over the years, so you should expect certain things to change with it--especially a system put in place with mechanics that deliberately work so that such changes are more easily facilitated, and that's what rivens are.

The entitlement comes into play when you say, "I've spent X hours/money on this and it changed!" Welcome to online games. This is standard practice. Take MOBAs for example. If you pay money to get access to a new character, and they nerf/rework that character, you are not generally going to get a refund. If you do, it's out of courtesy, not obligation.

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il y a 11 minutes, Artek94 a dit :

*S#&$ nonsense*

please l2p and stop giving your opinion, farewell

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12 минут назад, SpentCasings сказал:

I get what you are saying, and in some cases like the TIberon, and Inevitably the Gram rivens I -Completly- understand. 

 

My point is, the handling of this was HORRIBLE. Very little warning just BLAM thank you ma'am kiss your Beloved Plasmor Good bye. Best case would allow us to keep our current rolls/stats. Rivens are dynamic? Fine, but give us a bit of return on investment by keeping the previous riven rolls, and do this more often with some consistency so people like me who didnt see this coming wont be so gutted. 

 

And have some of the changes dont make sense. Supra? Astilla? Plasmor? None of those nerfs made sense other than the plasmor being popular for eidolons? and Being used a lot by Sayrns since It synergizes well with popping spores. My plasmor build wasnt even super-crit-meta or whatever the build is for plasmors that everyone uses. My Riven just had Damage and punch. AND I LOVED IT, because that gun reminded me of a BFG10k from quake. I even painted it black and green. Watching that massive green ball swipe entire Konga lines of Grineer was FUN. Wasn't overpowered, or game breaking, was just pure clean FUN. And it got Gimped. 

If DE will allow people to just keep their rivens unhcnaged im afraid it will just cause secret power creep among the elite chosen community of people.
"Here's a very good riven for Tenora. Here's Tenora Prime. That riven works on Tenora Prime. That Tenora Prime is now #1 most powerful weapon in the game and only 3 guys have it".
Perhaps someone doesn't have an issue with that, but i do.

As for your personal plasmor situation - i think i understand you completely. But plasmor is simply not the patient the rivens are aimed for since its a very strong gun even without the rivens.
In your particular case.... Perhaps the question of balancing should be shifted to stats themselves. Damage, multishot and crits are clearly way more popular than stuff like punch through. So, perhaps punch through should simply be stronger on rivens across the board? Although im afraid this would create a possibility for some other insanely overpowered builds... The ones that just ignore the walls and burn it all around the player. It'll be tonkor 2.0 all over again... So i dont know wether its worth it or not. Should we balance it out on invidividual level? Like, check every riven for every person for ever gun personally if its not breaking the lmits? That would be nice. But... its impossible to do. So... I just dont know.

Did plasmor deserved it? I think yes. Did YOUR plasmor riven deserved it? Maybe not. How do we account for that? We probably cant. At least i cant think of any carefully sophisticated way to do it properly...

Edited by Artek94
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6 минут назад, kellerak сказал:

please l2p and stop giving your opinion, farewell

And they call ME toxic... Jesus Christ...
Farewell to you too.

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Mostly good changes. Akstiletto needs a slight buff. Do ppl rly use buzlock, mitter and panthera so much? Never see them anywhere. The nerf feels uncall for.

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On 2018-11-08 at 12:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

EDIT 2: Thanks to everyone who left their constructive feedback. In response to your suggestions, I wanted to share two plans we have going forward:

1. We are looking into ways for players to intentionally acquire Rivens for their robotic companions' weapons. They will remain outside the Riven generation pool, as previously stated.
2. We will be revisiting Riven dispositions periodically, using the same rules laid out above, to further uphold our stated intentions.

Rivens need a rethink. While its a much larger task, wframe has so many weapons, most of which are mr fodder if only because of limited weapon slot space. Some have been nerfed into the ground in the past to become forgotten even though they look damn good.

The simulacrum could be a place where people could try out potential builds they don’t have access to. Rivens should or could be a way to build a weapon into a fabulous moster, with dedication, and perhaps a personal build instead of nourishing a gambling, lottery  mentality.

for people who actually spent effort rolling their own rivens for their own enjoyment, disposition changes feel like being jerked around. why not build a system where broken op isn’t an RNG option?

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All this AP screaming and not a single post about the amprex no longer being able to hit 150%CC without a scope/twin CC mods.

Pretty clear and somewhat humorous bias confirmation.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

All this AP screaming and not a single post about the amprex no longer being able to hit 150%CC without a scope/twin CC mods.

Pretty clear and somewhat humorous bias confirmation.

 

Because quite a few of us where not running with 150% CC before?

 

My apmrex riven was just base damage and reload speed with a status duration neg. IT still takes out the trash fairly well. 

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First off i love how everyone is asking for a kohm nerf because there riven got nerfed lol as for the kohm for those of you who remember the kohm when it was first released and then it got a huge nerf and the only thing that brought it back to light was the riven system just like many other weapons in this game.

Second i agree that riven disposition is really broken as there are very few weapons considered for endless missions i would agree that if you own a riven that stats go untouched if a disposition gets the nerf.

lastly its a PVE game why are we nerfing anything people enjoy this game how they want to myself if it isnt endless this game sucks 5 years of seeing nerfs gets old so DE anytime you would like me to prove to you what is good and what is not gladly show you got more formas in the most under used guns in this game just to see if it could kill a level 155 for fun so keep up with changing miter and viper rivens cause they are so OP they need a nerf.

 

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56 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Because i believe in the concept of a balanced game where actual raid bosses cant (and shouldnt) be literally oneshoted by unintentionally overpowered game mechanics. that's all there is to it. And unfortunately rivens have the potential to do just that. We have enough power creep already within the guns themselves, there's absolutely no justification for rivens to get involed into it too, because that's when things get pushed over the line.

You do know how much effort it takes to farm thousands of Kuva to roll that good riven right? This is a grinding game is it not? Don't be so sour about something just because you don't have it, yet. That's an ugly thing called envy. I used to disklike Rivens. For me they're like flex tape, unsightly and inelegant. A band-aid slapped by DE to the weapon system because the player base have evolved to the next level of playing. But I have come to accept it because I realize that even other older games has this system--Legendary and Epic loots and sets. Have you even played other looters, online or otherwise? DE is actually gracious to almost all players giving them early access to something as power creep as this. Stop hiding your envy under the pretense of balance and equality. Rivens are disgusting to me as is please stop being one. 

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this is so stupid the reason weapon usage dosnt change alot(like you want it to) is becuase even with super powerfull rivens still cant make weapons that are S#&$ usable. If a weapon has 5%  crit and 5% status its never going to be vibale raw dmg is good but good suplimental stats alwasy win out over all look at the soma its base dmg is laghable but its high cc and cd make it a monster 

to make a riven with secoundary stats the low good youd need a riven with atleast 860%( not this is need to reach a stats chance of 60% with all 4 duel stat mods useing 0 multishot). When you look at weapon usage befor touching riven despo first look at the secoundary stats of the weapon cuase unless you want rivens with 800%+ stats some of them well never be viable.

Other issue is givening the wrong stats to the wrong weapon if the weapons dosnt have a fast fire rate status isnt good on it( unless its a shot gun style weapon)

Edited by 01thanatos10
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Now that Sentinel Riven mods are removed, I feel like my little dethcube is now very special.

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Wanted to clear up one comment I'm seeing lots of. Many of you have mentioned the Kohm as well as Detron - These weapons were marked for a reduction, but we opted not to change them, because some players depend on these Rivens to achieve 100% status chance. Because of this, small disposition changes had the chance to make a much larger impact on these weapons, so we have left them as is.

Thank you.

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13 минут назад, Lorechill сказал:

You do know how much effort it takes to farm thousands of Kuva to roll that good riven right? This is a grinding game is it not? Don't be so sour about something just because you don't have it, yet. That's an ugly thing called envy. I used to disklike Rivens. For me they're like flex tape, unsightly and inelegant. A band-aid slapped by DE to the weapon system because the player base have evolved to the next level of playing. But I have come to accept it because I realize that even other older games has this system--Legendary and Epic loots and sets. Have you even played other looters, online or otherwise? DE is actually gracious to almost all players giving them early access to something as power creep as this. Stop hiding your envy under the pretense of balance and equality. Rivens are disgusting to me as is please stop being one. 

Of course i do. I have 25+ rivens, some of them with 10+ rolls (and with couple passing 50 rolls). I understand the amount of work that goes into them.

Problem is: rivens were NOT meant to make good guns better. They were made to make bad guns good enough to compete with their naturally better brothers.
So Rubico Prime and Tigris Prime DO NOT deserve good rivens.
Tiberon Prime? Meh, 2/5 riven dispo would be good enough.
Lanka? I honestly dont know. The only reason its became a thing is because its electricity only crit-focused sniper rifle which makes it perfect against radiation-weak enemies (eidolons). That's just accidental niche monopoly by accident. Should rivens suffer for that? Shruggity shrug.

As for envy: maybe... But i dont think you understand.
Remember the times when tonkor was meta? During those times... I didnt used it. I didn't wanted to. In fact: i SOLD it during those time. And i sold it after i bought a nightwatch skin for it (although it came in discounted bundle, so i'll delusion myself that it was free...) not to mention a catalyst and couple (?) of formas.
Then they nerfed it. Then i got a riven for it... And so i rebuild it. With a happy smile. Because i don't feel dirty about using it anymore.
Hopefully that gives you an insight into my "envious" character.

Edited by Artek94
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On 2018-11-08 at 4:00 PM, Wildrider123 said:

Good to see these changes finally are in. So many people lost sight in what rivens were meant for and simply turned it into another way to make their meta weapons even more meta.

Do you think they fixed that or something? and do you think DE isn't to blame? How is it the player's fault because DE released all primes with 4 or 5 disposition? It's entirely DE's fault for misusing rivens and these lackluster disposition changes show they are willing to keep doing it.

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On the status kick for those of you who know how to mod a weapon that needs  100 percent status to be good only can use 3 dual stat mods as the elements that effect each faction can only use 3 so if you want to give us mods that allow more status and the elements we need to make a status weapon viable im ok with that otherwise buff the weapons to get 100 percent status with 3 dual stats. then nerf the disposition on rivens have at it but nerf them now watch them all go right on the shelf till the next rework.

just to prove a point the emblolist used to be a crappy gun with the rework and a decent riven easy kill level 200 oh wait should i tell you that it might get nerf tomorrow.

Edited by (PS4)buddysball7

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4 минуты назад, (PS4)buddysball7 сказал:

On the status kick for those you who know how to mod a weapon that needs  100 percent status to be good only can use 3 dual stat mods as the elements that effect each faction can only use 3 so if you want to give us mods that allow more status and the elements we need to make a status weapon viable im ok with that otherwise buff the weapons to get 100 percent status with 3 dual stats. then nerf the disposition on rivens have at it but nerf them now watch them all go right on the shelf till the next rework.

just to prove a point the emblolist used to be a crappy gun with the rework and a decent riven easy kill level 200 oh wait should i tell you that it might get nerf tomorrow.

Dude. Punctuation. Seriously.

Your posts are impossible to read.

Edited by Artek94
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25 minutes ago, SpentCasings said:

 

Because quite a few of us where not running with 150% CC before?

 

My apmrex riven was just base damage and reload speed with a status duration neg. IT still takes out the trash fairly well. 

And you just made my point for me. My riven was is god tier, cursed recoil and 2 off the max of CC and 4.7 off of max achievable CD.

Red-redhead crits all day. Now, not so much. However on sub 150 it still works p alright, as long as it's not elem-enhance sorties.
You know what else still clears entire rooms? My AP, cause I specifically rolled for +CC +SC, and that 100% viral proc just halves all the things all the time, and scales infinitely as 100% viral does.

The simple fact deliberately ignored by many in this thread is the arca line was broken from day one. Not OP, not strong, straight up broken.

The AP did headshots at no falloff against any number of opponents.

The AS does infinite Ding!s and can do crits @ 100% status or near it with means most forms of enemy protection just get obliterated with one or two good shots and it has a great CD mod to boot for those sweet ding-strings.

The AT does 100% status and gets to use all three prime damage mods + CO for hee haw batsh!+ scaling and until the new melee hits, can still do hybrid crits thanks to combo tastic stances.

All of that ignoring how ludicrously cheap they were to build to anyone but a very new player, instant endgame ready content.

I hear

Quote

mah aps oh lawd it done got kilted

But what I see is a weapon that got justifiably nerfed four times and still clears anything a sortie can throw at it without a riven and only four forma. Meanwhile legit complaints about the viper and panthera/miter get drowned under

Quote

my parents credit card bought me infinite wins and now you're making me fire more than once per room to get those wins

 

K.

Edited by -Kittens-

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34 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I could see how you might feel that way, but if you didn't believe this was going to happen eventually, you either didn't think about it critically, or you fooled yourself through wishful thinking. As for people who may not have known, I don't buy the ignorance excuse. Anyone who read the wiki page for rivens would have stumbled across the Disposition section:

What's "intellectually dishonest" is pretending that this is somehow hard to find or "hidden" in any manner. It's common knowledge.

You're not comparing apples to apples here, so this analogy doesn't hold up. However, I would point out that Warframe as a game has seen countless changes over the years, so you should expect certain things to change with it--especially a system put in place with mechanics that deliberately work so that such changes are more easily facilitated, and that's what rivens are.

The entitlement comes into play when you say, "I've spent X hours/money on this and it changed!" Welcome to online games. This is standard practice. Take MOBAs for example. If you pay money to get access to a new character, and they nerf/rework that character, you are not generally going to get a refund. If you do, it's out of courtesy, not obligation.

A) I'm not talking about just me. I would be willing to bet that, just because you and I are the kind of people who would bother to use the forums, we're both in pretty deep into the game mechanics. But what I'm saying is, I dont think it's fair to act like every single tenno "should have known" how the system is "supposed to work". It isn't explained in game. I think its intellectually dishonest to pretend DE has done a proper job ensuring people who spend time and money on these things, know what they're getting into. Again, I dont think it's reasonable to just expect anyone who's bought a riven  in the last 600 days to have read wiki.

B) the point of comparing the two wasn't to be "apples to apples". The point being, "subject to change" doesn't mean any given change is automatically good, justifiable, or an improvement. The controversy here isn't about whether or not DE CAN screw with rivens its whether or not they should.

C) anyone getting a "God roll" (as much as I hate the term) riven in a trade has done one of two things: they have either spent money on a significant amount of platinum, or they have spent a substantial amount of time grinding and trading for it.

I dont know what prices are on PC, but on xbox at least:

1) a primed warframe will cost, at most, about 400 plat, and that's assuming it's been vaulted for quite awhile and it's actually considered good.

2) even if, say, you buy, I dont know, ember, and she gets nerfed, shes still useable. None of the warframe nerfs that I have ever seen hit as hard as, for example, changing opticor from a 4 to a 1. Contrary to what some people say, When a warframe gets changed it isnt simply "make it objectively worse in every measurable way because it's used too much".

 

3) but, funny enough, good rivens are way, way more difficult tone acquire than warframes (or characters in other games) so comparing nerfing one to nerfing the other is a bad comparison on two fronts. Good rivens can easily sell for far, far, far more than any warframe AND we're talking about nerds of vastly different magnitudes

You could say "the changes aren't that bad" but they already said in the beginning of this thread they're going to keep doing this. Strong rivens will keep getting nerfed until they're almost (or literally) not even worth the mod slot anymore at this rate.

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@echho Sierra that will be day i quit.  Dont care what was god tier or this or that. No reason to drop any riven should just buffed the capabilities of the others. 

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Just now, Anbu9000 said:

@echho Sierra that will be day i quit.  Dont care what was god tier or this or that. No reason to drop any riven should just buffed the capabilities of the others. 

And it kills me how many people are missile locked on "but... making bad weapons good".

That was a flawed idea from the very beginning, period.

If I need to crawl through layers of RNG or pony up in trade chat to get a riven to make X (with riven) compete with Y(different weapon, no riven) why should I even bother with that? If that scenario allows X to be BETTER than Y it's just gonna be a matter of time before its dispo gets nerfed, because it caught on, and then you'll be right back where you started. Y>X but now you wasted time/plat.

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