Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[Prof_Blocks_007]

On 2018-11-08 at 8:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

1. We are looking into ways for players to intentionally acquire Rivens for their robotic companions' weapons. They will remain outside the Riven generation pool, as previously stated.

That's brilliant news!

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Sleepyneol said:

PS 4 riven market is dead actually,  I don't mind DE Nerf all my OP riven,  but why not Kohm?  My kohm has 300+% dmg 200+% multi and it's stupid broken,  I don't even wanna use it 

Ill take it then

[IlandriaClover]

I know topics like this have been discussed before, but is there a chance we could get an update on the current status of how DE is feeling about Rivens internally and their affect on the game's health, economy, etc.?

In my mind I would love to see these changes made:

1) More across the board weapon balance changes to get weapons closer to "Mastery Rank = power" (this is decently close already, but there are a few outliers still).

2) No more disposition, Rivens are just stronger and less expensive to create (see point 3) on lower MR weapons since MR = power.

3) Reworked Riven system such that they're acquired empty (no stats or anything on them at all, and only locked to a general class of weapon). You would have to pay a large amount of kuva to assign a specific weapon before you could start rolling stats. Once a weapon is assigned a riven would have X empty slots and you have to pay a hefty amount of kuva per slot to roll a random stat in that slot only (meaning other slots don't change). Each weapon would have one extra "curse only" slot, and curses would have a negative effect as well as allow the player to choose between either: "cause the other slots to be more powerful" or "add an extra slot" should they add a curse. Each slot can be rerolled individually at will on an increasing-cost system similar to now (cost increases independently per slot maybe?).

I feel as though those changes (which I've heard plenty of others discuss similar things to) would do the following:

1) Keep new players always wanting to make new and stronger weapons as they progress, since higher MR = better weapon.

2) Create a "new" progression mechanic for end-game players where they could actually work on making all of their weapons end-game viable.

3) Removes the frustrating RNG from rivens that make people want to gnaw their arms off due to some players just getting lucky and effectively becoming "millionaires" from a lottery system.

4) Not negatively impact (though it would introduce a player "profession" of riven building) the game's economy because there will still be "god" rivens and garbage rivens since the cost to build a good riven could be made expensive. It would aim to replace pure randomness with feeling as though your effort is actually working towards something.

5) Allow DE to make more specific balance changes as required (is crit damage on this one weapon riven just totally broken? Nerf that one stat, etc.) as well as add and remove totally new bonuses/curses that players could reroll existing good rivens into without feeling bad about losing all of their other good stats that they worked hard to get.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

Remember when DE Steve talked about "respecting player investment"? That aged well.

Are people gonna get refunds for the rivens that go from 3-5 to 1 over the next few updates?

[(PSN)buddysball7]

6 hours ago, Gr1mjaw said:

A 30% status weapon can reach 100% status using 4 dual stats before multishot. 

Aiming to reach 100% status with only 3 does not fall under modding flexibility, but it falls under min-maxing(a thing you might not have watched on YouTube yet) and your opinion on not nerfing a riven just because without it, you cannot get maximum possible damage out of it, clearly states how much or little you know about modding your weapons and even what i am suggesting here.

by the same logic, we should get tigris rivens buffed, because without them we cannot build it with 3 dual stats and reach 100% status and min-max it for optimal about of damage.

Please think twice before you type bro.

when you playing endless missions like some people like to do you must be a low tier player cause if your using 4 dual stat mods on your builds your losing dps against each faction you are so funny maybe do some testing before you talk ha ha ha.

maybe if all these players would fight higher level enemies you wouldn't complain so much and before you say the game wasn't designed to go past level 155 well whats next level 26 higher level enemies to test against and DE should just say mission completed if that's the case there are many players who like to play endless or higher tier enemies so without the few weapons we have that can do that back to playing 20 min and out.

 

LEARN HOW TO MOD DUDE

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Cosmic_Executioner said:

*sighs* Guess I will say something about it......

I have been playing Warframe for 3 years approx, in which 1 year was completely for riven management. I didn't buy any direct Platinum. (Bought some tennogen tho)  So I was one of those players who would depend on the daily grind and hours of trade to keep it coming and going. Which Of course I didn't mind because It was fun this way. I never complain about anything. I didn't even say anything negative when Ash was clearly nerfed with his Ult.... but this was too much for everyone.. I remember when riven mods were a thing, I would always dream of a God tier riven, Let's consider I have "X" weapon which is my favorite. Like any other tenno I was after the riven for the said X weapon. In around 8-9 month span I Bought 4 rivens for the same weapon (because I always found another person selling something better than what I use) and around 25K platinum and 21 Forma was used by that same X weapon (why 21? Because riven polarities changed along with different builds) Finally, some months ago I settled on a riven which I bought for around 5K. I was enjoying the game as is and two of my IRL friends joined Warframe seeing how I enjoyed this game. 

 

Few weeks before Update : Our friends discussing about what riven to buy. They were eager to get good in the game and join the great community warframe created for all of us, One chose Supra Riven to buy and One chose Ignis Riven to buy since they both loved the Vandal For Supra and Wraith for Ignis Variants. They also saw some sample rivens and the prices for it so that they can make a budget and start farming plats. ... We were happy because together we were getting somewhere. 

 

The day of update : Update drops, I go Inside game to see my "X" riven already nerfed. I knew nerf was coming but to see that was really heart breaking. One of the true end game objective of Warframe is higher numbers and ease of getting them. Before the nerf I didn't mind spending thousands of hours just to get to those numbers aka make platinum to get those, but now seeing all stats drop its actually frustrating. From first glance the decrease of multiplier looks low and tbh it is low but when someone looks at a different perspective it's actually not that low. In a 3+ and 1- the nerf actually falls on all the pos and neg. the nerf in pos stat is actually a lot when in combined of 3 stats. ...

 

Guess what ? I still didn't tell my two friends that their favorite riven stats will get nerfed in general. I am being a coward but I dont want them to lose on the love they have for Warframe just yet. They are focused on Fortuna for now but in the future it will come eventually. 

 

Look DE, I loved you guys for making this game F2P and giving us free updates and everything but Pls give us back the original stats we all took hundreds of hours and hours to build. Fine, make the future rivens less powerful but keep the original stats on the already rolled out rivens. To you guys this looks like a small change but to us its higher than what you'd think it did. We already had enough nerfs on stuff as is.

 

Ok fine, If changing the stats isn't possible for you guys then why not after a FULL and proper review release the riven stat multiplier? We may have suffered but I don't want other tennos in the future facing the same fate. Let's face it, more than 60% of the trade these days are rivens and people need to invest a lot of it. We never knew this would happen. We never knew all the hours we used in game would come to this. It's like doing a job for years with proper payment and then company decides they have given too much and then they take away our home to make up for it. Simply put, some players are already leaving or have become so disappointed that they are angry about the change. We did not deserve this at all.

 

I know this is a long rant...but had to let it out because not only for me but I speak for my fellow tenno who barely had a few rivens to call good and now for the sake of "balancing" some good one is now just as bad. This post may get criticized a lot by the players here but I had to say all of this building up inside me....But I'd appreciate it if anyone could bring this up to them (DE)

 

PS: My 'X' weapon was Opticor......

P.S Forgive my English errors

 

 

Yeah  and they said they're going to "do this periodically" now. So your opticor rivens wont drop to 1-2 dispo all at once but I'm pretty sure they'll get there. Sad.

[Apav]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Remember when DE Steve talked about "respecting player investment"? That aged well.

Are people gonna get refunds for the rivens that go from 3-5 to 1 over the next few updates?

Sentinel riven prices just skyrocketed after it was announced they were no longer obtainable. Many people have already bought them at those prices because they thought this was a permanent change (which from the way DE and most of the players talk about sentinel rivens, who could blame them), and were rightfully concerned that if they waited longer the prices would get much higher as the market for them gets even scarcer. And not a day later DE has announced that they changed their mind and are looking into making them obtainable again, just in a different way from the rest of the rivens.  As soon as that change goes live, prices will plummet again, screwing over anyone who bought them in the past day.

Respecting player investment indeed.

[KingTikky]

En 8/11/2018 a las 14:24, [DE]Connor dijo:

1. We are looking into ways for players to intentionally acquire Rivens for their robotic companions' weapons. They will remain outside the Riven generation pool, as previously stated.

After some days this is posted after i spend all my plat on ...trash this is made available a new way to acquire rivens, im by all means speechless  dunno if it was intended or just lack of judgement on how it will affect the market but as a player that has based his entire end game on being a merchant you have screwed me over in ways you can not imagine. i hmm ..........

[-_-Kuko-_-]

i do have rivens for a lot of weapons that was touched for good (soma, dread) and for bad (rubico, supra, amprex, euphona prime, and a large etc) Im aware that few weapons were ridicously overkill with these specific riven roll (a secondary doing more damage than a riven modded sniper is just "wtf is going") so in general im ok with the changes.

Onlyone im dissapointed is the opticor change, it was already pretty much not usefull in the majority of the missions, it was unable to hit 100% CC with the dispo it has, was not as good against eidolon, plus you always got to use one slot for firerate otherwise is annoying, and there are people that use 2 firerate mods (one of them is always vile acceleration which already lower 15% of our damage), so did it deserve the change? i cant think in a mission that will still worth bringing it...

The price for using such high damage weapon (not that high in practial use though, just paper numbers) was already "high" with its low firerate, little magazine, and its beam hitting non-weak points making your shoot serving no purpose

[(XBOX)Spartan117qz]

Nobody uses half the weapons that barely got touched. The Tonkor is never used anymore due to 'ye olden nerf where explosions don't count as headshots. That should have gone from a .9 to like a 4.5 or something.

The miniscule, incremental changes fix nothing. Lanka rivens will still go for 800p with -multishot, bane of corpus and cold damage.

I have to repeat myself here, because these changes fixed NOTHING. The point of the riven system is to make old, less meta weapons become more powerful. Stuff like the Hema, Quartakk, Stradavar, The Tonkor. Weapons that you never, ever see people use, because they just don't have the power the game calls for anymore. Nobody has touched these weapons in ages, and you should have buffed their disposition more, to suit that fact.

Seriously  when was the last time you saw someone using the Tonkor? Or the Quartakk... and no, Hydron and ESO don't count.

I'll surmise the point with these, "Just because it used to be meta, does not mean it is any more. Don't be afraid to give your players some power" and "The number or people using these weapons, is smaller than the number of my friends, and that's pretty fecking small"

[Anbu9000]

7 hours ago, TheBronx said:

If the amount of plat in the system is increasing at a higher rate than player base, inflation is normal. Anyways there is no data to support this. There is also no data to support your affirmation that riven prices have increased. But assuming it is true, the reason for that increase is probably a high demand/low supply:

How many players want a good Arca riven? How many good Arca rivens are for sale? Supply/Demand.

Arca rivens are finite. The fact that you could get one from the daily sortie doesn't make them infinite. It is a finite number that increases (slowly) with time. You cannot "create one arca riven". All you can do is do the daily sortie day after day after day till you get one arca riven, at some point, maybe one day maybe years.

Also how many players do farm kuva? Cause we need players to farm kuva in order to turn trash rivens into good ones. If farming kuva is a pain in the ass, then maybe players have stopped farming kuva and started farming other things to get plat so they can pay for a good riven, instead of creating one themselves.

That could also explain why riven prices increase. I am one of these players. I prefer to sell prime components, sets and stuff like that. Every day. After weeks or months of doing this I spend 1k plat or more on a riven I like. No RNG, no kuva farming. Every player doing this, like me, is taking arca rivens out of the market without increasing the "pool" of arca rivens in the system. And for every player doing this, we need a player doing the "dirty" job of adding arca rivens to the pool. If these numbers do not match, prices drop or prices sky rocket.

I don't think the riven market is crazy. I don't think we have to control the riven market. I do not believe that a group of evil greedy buyers is manipulating prices. It is much simpler than that: supply/demand.

Want prices to drop? Increase kuva drop. Increase veiled riven drop. Change the cycling system to be less RNG (aka consume less kuva). And then prices will drop.

Dude you nailed it. Dropping weapons dispositions was a mistake. Only those without so called god tier rivens. Only those who are partners or Knew this change was coming. Only those who didnt invest time in playing, Riven Cycling, money and plat are ok with this. They did the high MR players and riven seekers or endless mission players wrong. Riven running to me was end game and was something you earned to clear Arbitration, Eidolons and Boss's. As MR24 soon to be 25 with 2500 plus hours i liked farming with new players and helping out. I invested real life money because i loved this game and believed in them as a company. The hell would anyone invest in something that takes from those it invests and lowers there invested items. Thats a loss and in business that puts you under. No one is happy to lose. Especially when everyone has the same capability. This update is ok to some but to me and others it ticks off. This isnt a stock its a game. Taking from those who invested into the game is in the end DE's decision but in a world of virtual numbers 1 and 0 this was a bad call. The only ones not upset about this time and time again proven in this forum. Is Low MR players, Those who didnt buy plat{ same purchases that support this game } or those who didnt grind. They didnt even buff other mods enough to make difference. DE's move waiting to see how they roll the dice before i buy plat or do anything other then fish, mine new ores and level new standing.  

[Gr1mjaw]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)buddysball7 said:

when you playing endless missions like some people like to do you must be a low tier player cause if your using 4 dual stat mods on your builds your losing dps against each faction you are so funny maybe do some testing before you talk ha ha ha.

maybe if all these players would fight higher level enemies you wouldn't complain so much and before you say the game wasn't designed to go past level 155 well whats next level 26 higher level enemies to test against and DE should just say mission completed if that's the case there are many players who like to play endless or higher tier enemies so without the few weapons we have that can do that back to playing 20 min and out.

 

LEARN HOW TO MOD DUDE

> when you playing endless missions like some people like to do you must be a low tier player

You: assuming things that are you don't know and trying to belittle me because you have no strong point to argue on.
Me: stating facts on why giving riven disposition immunity for selected weapon is bad for the game(see my post history from profile if you interested).
you: completely missing the point and trying to derail from the topic with your "LeArN HoW tO Mod dUdE"

i think i am done talking to you, bye. have fun with your kohm riven while it lasts.

[(PSN)buddysball7]

3 minutes ago, Gr1mjaw said:

> when you playing endless missions like some people like to do you must be a low tier player

You: assuming things that are you don't know and trying to belittle me because you have no strong point to argue on.
Me: stating facts on why giving riven disposition immunity for selected weapon is bad for the game(see my post history from profile if you interested).
you: completely missing the point and trying to derail from the topic with your "LeArN HoW tO Mod dUdE"

i think i am done talking to you, bye. have fun with your kohm riven while it lasts.

Cool be done talking fine by me DE must see alot more to what people are using the kohm for so that's why it wasn't changed i will defend the kohm till i quit this game don't get me wrong i still think the disposition changes where stupid all around but to call for another nerf of a fan favorite gun is just childish at best.

My gun got nerfed so can you nerf the kohm, lanka and every other gun that wasn't touched wow.

[(PSN)buddysball7]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)thecoolman575 said:

dude, hate to say it but bad weapons are still bad even if they have 5 disposition. not really understanding why the viper, vasto, miter, and others are getting nerfed, players rarely use them. don’t know why we’re getting nerfed but we’re honestly so op it doesnt matter. DE should give us challenging content to actually use those powerful weapons, there is no content in the game right now where you need rivens right now unless you play endurance runs. The fact that they nerfed lato and vasto rivens even though they were unpopular and underperforming goes against the concept of riven mods itself. I like that they’re attempting to buff underused weapons but most of them just don’t do enough damage in the first place 

Well said

[(XBOX)SUBWAYs Slacker]

Lol i rerolled my lanka riven 100+ times and im still fine with these changes. We all should have known dispos would change since it was stated from the beginning. DE will hopefully continue to touch on dispos going forward instead of letting it stagnate for so long. Honestly all this salt means nothing. Yell all you want the dispos have changed and will continue to change even if it happens to hit your precious riven.

[Sishan]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)SUBWAYs Slacker said:

Lol i rerolled my lanka riven 100+ times and im still fine with these changes. We all should have known dispos would change since it was stated from the beginning. DE will hopefully continue to touch on dispos going forward instead of letting it stagnate for so long. Honestly all this salt means nothing. Yell all you want the dispos have changed and will continue to change even if it happens to hit your precious riven.

The problem isn't that dispositions change its that the system of buffing weapons that aren't popular still does not work. It doesn't achieve the stated goals in any way shape or form, so at the end of the day because a riven can't really make a terrible weapon good the system is just an annoying arbitrary nerf/buff cycle. Is that something that adds value to the game?

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, Sishan said:

The problem isn't that dispositions change its that the system of buffing weapons that aren't popular still does not work. It doesn't achieve the stated goals in any way shape or form, so at the end of the day because a riven can't really make a terrible weapon good the system is just an annoying arbitrary nerf/buff cycle. Is that something that adds value to the game?

Try to call rivens with their real name: loot boxes ...

[Sishan]

2 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Try to call rivens with their real name: loot boxes ...

Last I checked if you got something from a lootbox you got to keep it, so that's not really accurate at all, there are fixes possible to rivens it just depends on how they want to go about it. Like adding permanent stats that affect an unused weapon's weaknesses and then having riven stats on top of that stat. Until they address the problem of certain weapon statistics simply being unworkable however the system is not doing its job.

[Nez-Kal]

19 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Try to call rivens with their real name: loot boxes ...

Well, at the VERY least they're Play to Roll, and not Pay to Roll. So, so far Market Mod Packs are still DE's "Loot Boxes" until they adjust/remove them.

[KelTuzack]

@[DE]Connor

On 2018-11-08 at 3:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

“Riven Disposition” was introduced as a sort of counterbalance, ensuring that weaker weapons get stronger Rivens and vice versa.

Honestly, this process should happen every week or every months if you truly wish to balance weapons with it.

[Omega]

I hope DE will allow Artax rivens to come back as well if the other sentinel rivens can be acquired elsewhere. 

Market speculation is nasty, paying 15k+ for an Artax riven is terrible 😂 

[Ragnarok]

28 minutes ago, Omega said:

I hope DE will allow Artax rivens to come back as well if the other sentinel rivens can be acquired elsewhere. 

Market speculation is nasty, paying 15k+ for an Artax riven is terrible 😂 

That would be extremely bad and set a very negative precedent in my opinion. DE made it very clear artax rivens were removed, were collector mods, and would not be brought back. The market understood this and waiting as long as they have reinforced this. Going back on this and putting their word into question is something they don't want to do.

[Anngrat]

34 минуты назад, Omega сказал:

I hope DE will allow Artax rivens to come back as well if the other sentinel rivens can be acquired elsewhere. 

Market speculation is nasty, paying 15k+ for an Artax riven is terrible 😂 

Bring back artax rivens, and RIP artax owners - it was clearly stated that artax riven is a vanity item... Insane amount of cash gonna turn into nothing

[ReshyShira]

9 hours ago, Acos said:

Personal Opinion: Rivens should really be based on the weapons viability, rather than popularity. 

If you keep it a popularity thing then you really need an automated system for it. Doing it by hand seems like a daunting experience for whoever is tied up doing it. 

Correction:  They should be based on the viability (or popularity) of a weapon without a riven.  If a weapon becomes more popular because of a riven it shouldn't be hit by a riven nerf wave, because then it'd doing it's damn job.  But I doubt DE is tracking what users use a weapon with and without a riven.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Remember when DE Steve talked about "respecting player investment"? That aged well.

Are people gonna get refunds for the rivens that go from 3-5 to 1 over the next few updates?

Exactly, Disposition changes like these are a massive disrespect to the player's time and investment into the game.  Where's my 300k Kuva refund DE?

[(PSN)Hel_Hexen]

Ugh, my arca plasmor went from 127% multi shot and 91% toxin to 98% and 70%. That hurts