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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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9 hours ago, Acos said:

Personal Opinion: Rivens should really be based on the weapons viability, rather than popularity. 

If you keep it a popularity thing then you really need an automated system for it. Doing it by hand seems like a daunting experience for whoever is tied up doing it. 

Correction:  They should be based on the viability (or popularity) of a weapon without a riven.  If a weapon becomes more popular because of a riven it shouldn't be hit by a riven nerf wave, because then it'd doing it's damn job.  But I doubt DE is tracking what users use a weapon with and without a riven.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Remember when DE Steve talked about "respecting player investment"? That aged well.

Are people gonna get refunds for the rivens that go from 3-5 to 1 over the next few updates?

Exactly, Disposition changes like these are a massive disrespect to the player's time and investment into the game.  Where's my 300k Kuva refund DE?

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47 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Correction:  They should be based on the viability (or popularity) of a weapon without a riven.  If a weapon becomes more popular because of a riven it shouldn't be hit by a riven nerf wave, because then it'd doing it's damn job.  But I doubt DE is tracking what users use a weapon with and without a riven.

Exactly, Disposition changes like these are a massive disrespect to the player's time and investment into the game.  Where's my 300k Kuva refund DE?

THANK YOU.

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4 hours ago, Sishan said:

The problem isn't that dispositions change its that the system of buffing weapons that aren't popular still does not work. It doesn't achieve the stated goals in any way shape or form, so at the end of the day because a riven can't really make a terrible weapon good the system is just an annoying arbitrary nerf/buff cycle. Is that something that adds value to the game?

>annoying arbitrary nerf/buff cycle.

In a nutshell that's what I dont want to see rivens get turned into.

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We are looking into ways for players to intentionally acquire Rivens for their robotic companions' weapons. They will remain outside the Riven generation pool, as previously stated.

i'm okay with that. not having Sentinel Rivens is.... just a bad idea, putting them somewhere else seems unnecessary but still in the game is just fine with me.

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Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

>annoying arbitrary nerf/buff cycle.

In a nutshell that's what I dont want to see rivens get turned into.

Sorry pumpkin but that's probably the way DE will balance them. Better make peace with it now before it happens.

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9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i'm okay with that. not having Sentinel Rivens is.... just a bad idea, putting them somewhere else seems unnecessary but still in the game is just fine with me.

I dont understand this decision at all. Sentinel weapons are meh (for the most part) to begin with sure, but the same could be said for a lot of weapons.

 

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Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont understand this decision at all. Sentinel weapons are meh (for the most part) to begin with sure, but the same could be said for a lot of weapons.

 

And it continues the situation that people who were envious hated and wanted rivens oof'd in the first place. A small subset of rives that cost a kings ransom for arbitrary reasons.

Edited by LupisV0lk

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2 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Sorry pumpkin but that's probably the way DE will balance them. Better make peace with it now before it happens.

Oh, I've already "made peace with it". Doesnt mean I'm not going to Express my thoughts on it. Even if it means people like you are going to call me weird things like "pumpkin".

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Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Oh, I've already "made peace with it". Doesnt mean I'm not going to Express my thoughts on it. Even if it means people like you are going to call me weird things like "pumpkin".

But your not expressing your thoughts in any meaningful manner. You like all the rest are either harmlessly throwing your toys out of the pram or  declaring economic terrorism in order to bully the devs into kowtowing to your demands.

Edited by LupisV0lk

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4 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

But your not expressing your thoughts in any meaningful manner. You like all the rest are either harmlessly throwing your toys out of the pram or  declaring economic terrorism in order to bully the devs into kowtowing to your demands.

I would argue that I have offered my thoughts in a constructive manner several times.

I would also argue that nothing I have said about DE, in game, in the forums, or otherwise amounts to "bullying".

"I dont agree with x" and "I think x is a bad idea" =/= "bullying the developer into kowtowing to your demands".

 

And I would argue that this post from you is not only hyperbole but more of a reflection of yourself than me.

But, if you want to really get into this feel free to quote something that I said that you think is "bullying" or "demanding the developer to kowtow to my demands".

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7 hours ago, Cosmic_Executioner said:

*sighs* Guess I will say something about it......

I have been playing Warframe for 3 years approx, in which 1 year was completely for riven management. I didn't buy any direct Platinum. (Bought some tennogen tho)  So I was one of those players who would depend on the daily grind and hours of trade to keep it coming and going. Which Of course I didn't mind because It was fun this way. I never complain about anything. I didn't even say anything negative when Ash was clearly nerfed with his Ult.... but this was too much for everyone.. I remember when riven mods were a thing, I would always dream of a God tier riven, Let's consider I have "X" weapon which is my favorite. Like any other tenno I was after the riven for the said X weapon. In around 8-9 month span I Bought 4 rivens for the same weapon (because I always found another person selling something better than what I use) and around 25K platinum and 21 Forma was used by that same X weapon (why 21? Because riven polarities changed along with different builds) Finally, some months ago I settled on a riven which I bought for around 5K. I was enjoying the game as is and two of my IRL friends joined Warframe seeing how I enjoyed this game. 

 

Few weeks before Update : Our friends discussing about what riven to buy. They were eager to get good in the game and join the great community warframe created for all of us, One chose Supra Riven to buy and One chose Ignis Riven to buy since they both loved the Vandal For Supra and Wraith for Ignis Variants. They also saw some sample rivens and the prices for it so that they can make a budget and start farming plats. ... We were happy because together we were getting somewhere. 

 

The day of update : Update drops, I go Inside game to see my "X" riven already nerfed. I knew nerf was coming but to see that was really heart breaking. One of the true end game objective of Warframe is higher numbers and ease of getting them. Before the nerf I didn't mind spending thousands of hours just to get to those numbers aka make platinum to get those, but now seeing all stats drop its actually frustrating. From first glance the decrease of multiplier looks low and tbh it is low but when someone looks at a different perspective it's actually not that low. In a 3+ and 1- the nerf actually falls on all the pos and neg. the nerf in pos stat is actually a lot when in combined of 3 stats. ...

 

Guess what ? I still didn't tell my two friends that their favorite riven stats will get nerfed in general. I am being a coward but I dont want them to lose on the love they have for Warframe just yet. They are focused on Fortuna for now but in the future it will come eventually. 

 

Look DE, I loved you guys for making this game F2P and giving us free updates and everything but Pls give us back the original stats we all took hundreds of hours and hours to build. Fine, make the future rivens less powerful but keep the original stats on the already rolled out rivens. To you guys this looks like a small change but to us its higher than what you'd think it did. We already had enough nerfs on stuff as is.

 

Ok fine, If changing the stats isn't possible for you guys then why not after a FULL and proper review release the riven stat multiplier? We may have suffered but I don't want other tennos in the future facing the same fate. Let's face it, more than 60% of the trade these days are rivens and people need to invest a lot of it. We never knew this would happen. We never knew all the hours we used in game would come to this. It's like doing a job for years with proper payment and then company decides they have given too much and then they take away our home to make up for it. Simply put, some players are already leaving or have become so disappointed that they are angry about the change. We did not deserve this at all.

 

I know this is a long rant...but had to let it out because not only for me but I speak for my fellow tenno who barely had a few rivens to call good and now for the sake of "balancing" some good one is now just as bad. This post may get criticized a lot by the players here but I had to say all of this building up inside me....But I'd appreciate it if anyone could bring this up to them (DE)

 

PS: My 'X' weapon was Opticor......

P.S Forgive my English errors

 

 

Your story is so compelling that I literally cried.

 

It makes me so sad and heartbroken to... oh wait.

 

I sunk 8 forma into the synapse the week it debuted because it was my kinda weapon, an exponential lightsaber infested death ray that would bust all the ghosts, and happily carried folks whom had no business in being anywhere near level 60 infested derelicts and strange new Orokin towers, even though they nerfed it that week as well, a little. Then right before Nekros came out the weapon I used to melt all the things received a 100% nerf because Scott happened to play for a weekend event and saw someone with set up that did less damage than mine and lost his S#&$ at how a player was just zapping entire high level tilesets to goo.

(he also nerfed the warframe the player used as well, and she's never been as good since)

This was before update 13, better known as FIVE YEARS AGO.

Five years. The synapse and amprex sucked for five years.

100% damage reduction. Cut in literal half. Same for the Amprex, same for the Phage.

So all due respect, you know nothing of nerfpangs and loss.jpg.

You have no clue. Not the faintest inkling.

AP and Opticor rivens can still reach 300% dps with ease, and neither weapon even needs a riven to be used at level 100 content reliably and with due dispatch.

DE has stated time and again not to get married to rivens or any other mechanic that trivializes the economy of outcome, and lo Saryn and banshee and Trin and Nidus get the nerf bat, because that's how DE model has worked since day one, you just ignored that it did.

Edited by -Kittens-
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Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I would argue that I have offered my thoughts in a constructive manner several times.

I would also argue that nothing I have said about DE, in game, in the forums, or otherwise amounts to "bullying".

"I dont agree with x" and "I think x is a bad idea" =/= "bullying the developer into kowtowing to your demands".

 

And I would argue that this post from you is not only hyperbole but more of a reflection of yourself than me.

But, if you want to really get into this feel free to quote something that I said that you think is "bullying" or "demanding the developer to kowtow to my demands".

You have offered your thoughts in a constructive manner, the same can not be said for the rest of the community.

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En 8/11/2018 a las 21:24, [DE]Connor dijo:

2. We will be revisiting Riven dispositions periodically, using the same rules laid out above, to further uphold our stated intentions. 

What rules? "Popularity" is relative and opaque. And some weapons, like Kohm, break the rules. Also "periodically" is also extremely vague. It could be once a month, or once every 1000 years. And what are your "intentions"?

That whole phrase said nothing.

Guys, and girls, at DE: you seriously need someone to stop for a moment, read some feedback, apologize and start to communicate better. It already is hard enough to see your effort destroyed without any compensation at all, without a single kind word on your side, but it only gets harder when you don't know what the goal is, why this was needed or how the new "system" (if there is any) will make rivens better in any way.

Sudden massive nerf in the middle of Fortuna update, without a single reply from DE on this thread and vague phrases about what will come next will destroy player loyalty. Be careful, cause this is a game for long term players, loyalty is key here DE. You better hurry up.

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Just now, LupisV0lk said:

You have offered your thoughts in a constructive manner, the same can not be said for the rest of the community.

Okay well, I appreciate that.

Yes, I know some people are just having a hissy fit. I have tried to explain why I feel about this rather than just yelling "this sucks".

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2 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Your story is so compelling that I literally cried.

 

It makes me so sad and heartbroken to... oh wait.

 

I sunk 8 forma into the synapse the week it debuted because it was my kinda weapon, an exponential lightsaber infested death ray that would bust all the ghosts, and happily carried folks whom had no business in being anywhere near level 60 infested derelicts and strange new Orokin towers, even though they nerfed it that week as well, a little. Then right before Nekros came out the weapon I used to melt all the things received a 100% nerf because Scott happened to play for a weekend event and saw someone with set up that did less damage than mine and lost his S#&$ at how a player was just zapping entire high level tilesets to goo.

(he also nerfed the warframe the player used as well, and she's never been as good since)

This was before update 13, better known as FIVE YEARS AGO.

Five years. The synapse and amprex sucked for five years.

100% damage reduction. Cut in literal half. Same for the Amprex, same for the Phage.

So all due respect, you know nothing of nerfpangs and loss.jpg.

You have no clue. Not the faintest inkling.

AP and Opticor rivens can still reach 300% dps with ease, and neither weapon even needs a riven to be used at level 100 content reliably and with due dispatch.

DE has stated time and again not to get married to rivens or any other mechanic that trivializes the economy of outcome, and lo Saryan and banshee and Ttin and Nidus get the nerf bat, because that's how DE model has worked since day one, you just ignored that it did.

Preach brother Preach

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Just now, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Okay well, I appreciate that.

Yes, I know some people are just having a hissy fit. I have tried to explain why I feel about this rather than just yelling "this sucks".

Yeah it sucks, i've probably had my argonak riven get oof'd which'd suck because i needed it to get it to 100% CC.

I think hissy fit is the understatement of the century.

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7 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

DE has stated time and again not to get married to rivens or any other mechanic that trivializes the economy of outcome, and lo Saryn and banshee and Trin and Nidus get the nerf bat, because that's how DE model has worked since day one, you just ignored that it did.

Firstly were not here to play "oh woe is me I have it so bad", he laid out his feelings on the whole fiasco which is feedback and hes got the right to give it so try not to be such a jerk. Secondly it doesn't matter what DE has stated, what matter is what they do and how they do it. Actions are important, by not doing upkeep on a system they caused the problem, no one else. The riven system not only doesn't achieve the stated goals of the system it actively works against itself and should be looked into for a rework. If people come into this thread to whine, moan, complain and state that they feel betrayed enough to quit IT IS STILL ACTIONABLE FEEDBACK. So long as they're polite and follow the rules let them do it. Mocking people for what they feel has never helped anything.

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13 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

DE has stated time and again not to get married to rivens or any other mechanic that trivializes the economy of outcome, and lo Saryn and banshee and Trin and Nidus get the nerf bat, because that's how DE model has worked since day one, you just ignored that it did.

Firstly were not here to play "oh woe is me I have it so bad", he laid out his feelings on the whole fiasco which is feedback and hes got the right to give it so try not to be such a jerk. Secondly it doesn't matter what DE has stated, what matter is what they do and how they do it. Actions are important, by not doing upkeep on a system they caused the problem, no one else. The riven system not only doesn't achieve the stated goals of the system it actively works against itself and should be looked into for a rework. If people come into this thread to whine, moan, complain and state that they feel betrayed enough to quit IT IS STILL ACTIONABLE FEEDBACK. So long as they're polite and follow the rules let them do it. Mocking people for what they feel has never helped anything.

Edited by Sishan
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35 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Your story is so compelling that I literally cried.

 

It makes me so sad and heartbroken to... oh wait.

 

I sunk 8 forma into the synapse the week it debuted because it was my kinda weapon, an exponential lightsaber infested death ray that would bust all the ghosts, and happily carried folks whom had no business in being anywhere near level 60 infested derelicts and strange new Orokin towers, even though they nerfed it that week as well, a little. Then right before Nekros came out the weapon I used to melt all the things received a 100% nerf because Scott happened to play for a weekend event and saw someone with set up that did less damage than mine and lost his S#&$ at how a player was just zapping entire high level tilesets to goo.

(he also nerfed the warframe the player used as well, and she's never been as good since)

This was before update 13, better known as FIVE YEARS AGO.

Five years. The synapse and amprex sucked for five years.

100% damage reduction. Cut in literal half. Same for the Amprex, same for the Phage.

So all due respect, you know nothing of nerfpangs and loss.jpg.

You have no clue. Not the faintest inkling.

AP and Opticor rivens can still reach 300% dps with ease, and neither weapon even needs a riven to be used at level 100 content reliably and with due dispatch.

DE has stated time and again not to get married to rivens or any other mechanic that trivializes the economy of outcome, and lo Saryn and banshee and Trin and Nidus get the nerf bat, because that's how DE model has worked since day one, you just ignored that it did.

Yes, and these poorly thought-out knee jerk balance changes are just as bad as the poorly thought-out riven disposition changes.

 

But hey, at least it only costs 8 forma rather than 3k platinum.

Edited by ReshyShira
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This is stupid. All this does is anger the majority, and provide a band-aid solution to a current problem.  

 

How do you fix this issue? 

Easy,

 

  • Do not even touch weapons if they do relatively high damage
    • Why?  They are simply effective.  In a game pushing towards making content harder (Arbitrations, [Elite] Sanctuary Onslaught, etc.), the answer isn't to nerf what is popular, and make weapons nobody uses slightly less bad.  Seriously, do you really think you will see ANYBODY using the Paris, the Veldt, or even the Fusilai?  The reason these weapons are not used, is because their stats are inherently bad if not mediocre.  Fix the core problem, and buff weapons that need it, and keep weapons that do not inhibit other players' experience.
  • Return the Sentinel Weapon Rivens in a new way
    • I know not everyone enjoys sentinel rivens, but they ARE useful in at least giving that sentinel's weapon a snowball's chance in hell to actually kill something.  While I do agree it is disappointing to get these from veiled rivens, think back to "Why is it people are unhappy with sentinel weapons" as compared to 'How can we get rid of this burden?"  I have an idea:  Return these to their own category: Sentinel Weapon Riven Mod, and having these drop from T5 bounties as a rare drop, and prevent them from being transmuted.  This way, those who want sentinel weapons can reliably get them w/o having a ridiculous price tag.  Also, could you PLEASE adjust the stats of the sentinel weapons (some at least?)  Some players shouldn't feel that just un-equipping the sentinel weapons offers no detriment.
  • Do not nerf meme weapon rivens
    • You ACTUALLY nerfed the lato. A BEGINNER weapon.  Tell me, do you see anybody mopping floors of lvl 60 corrupted enemies with that lato?  The sonicor without question can, and it got buffed.  This was not op, but used frequently as a meme weapon.  What's next, nerf the riven disposition on the kraken?
Edited by Vixter4
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Moving dispositions on rivens is the current way DE keeps plat rolling around. The idea was intentional and from the start of rivens this was going to happen, therefore, it is going to continue to happen. Lets face it: you wont hear them say we built a bad weapon, rather, the fix is give you riven dispositions, have you invest, and then change them how they think is appropriate. Riven disposition doesn't factor in what you personally have invested into gaining a top teir riven, instead, it is a way for them to spark business. Wait and see how melee 3.0 flips disposions on its head. In summary, prices in the market have dropped on warframes and rivens have taken over with being the high price sale items. Nothing us gamers can do about it but take changes in stride. 

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I've put some thought into the "popularity = power" problem, and how it creates a vicious cycle of pointless or erroneous buffs/nerfs, and I think that if DE insists on using this fallacy as the basis for their changes, they should at least limit usage data to level 60+ content.

Any riven that allows the weakest weapons in the game to complete the star chart should probably not be nerfed, and nerfing the rivens of "power weapons" doesn't make sense in the context of lower content since those weapons wipe that content even without rivens. Nerfing the rivens for power weapons in high level content only makes sense insofar as wanting to allow less powerful (but still strong) weapons to become competitive with said power weapons. This will create a weird gray area for some weapons where the original notion might actually bear out as intended, but I wouldn't be overly optimistic about that if the riven causes weapons to become more popular and thus incite its own nerf.

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Well they said it was because of how popular some weapons were in comparison to others..... But 1st of all the kohm wasnt touched. And 2nd they created POE, and stuck 3 fun to capture things in a vast map. That were only able to be shot with three weapons effectively, the lanka, rubico, or vectis. Ummmm i wonder why those weapons were used more then others? 3rd i will say it again, THE KOHM WASNT TOUCHED. Which you cant tell me isnt one of the most used weapons in game..... So for DE to say it was because of a popularity contest makes no sense. And taking stats away from something players worked hard on, spent plat on, or took the time to acquire is robbing them of that achievements. I feel DE needs to adress this soon or they will lose more players then they already have.

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