Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

[(PSN)MintalotUK]

whats there to know or should i say aint codex for information? and soon as u hear or see a riven u know its to make the weap more powerful ,until the nerf i never knew disposistion changed but hey here we are with weapon builds that are wrecked and vectis nearly impossible to use charged or prime chamber yet kohm untouched ,more like its dev or regular forum posters fave weap

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kronos_Slayer001 said:

why should the Kohm be exempt?

It shouldn't. The fact that it will lose 50% of its damage output and yet still remain an exemplary endgame weapon is pretty telling, same for detron, as is the caveat of the detron needs X to survive when the Mara detron exists and is purchasable several times a year.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kronos_Slayer001 said:

Plasmor will sit in storage

That's entirely a voluntary choice, when the Synapse went from #1 dps to behind the latron in burst, I still used it and amprex, and the phage, and with rivens was able to build them close to what they were pre nerf. The loss of the amprex to hit on demand red-redhead crits is a 200% reduction in damage potential, but it still clears sorties and arbitrations with impunity, and so do the opticor and plasmor.

This is pretty clear case of the need to cowboy up. You don't need to like or accept the changes, but you do need to keep perspective, and people whining that they're quitting the game because one mod lost 25% of it's range either need to put up or shut up, or more likely go read some threads involving U7 and U8 and Rhino and Ember and Saryn, cause this dance is neither new nor unique.

[0utlier]

@[DE]Connor Some feedback and questions regarding riven dispositions changes:

- One of the rules you followed was:

On 2018-11-08 at 8:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Dispositions are based roughly on the weapon’s usage among mid-to-endgame Warframe players, with handmade tweaks where appropriate.

Could you please elaborate on this - what precisely do you mean by mid-to-endgame players, and over what time period did you decide to base this on?

- Can we expect to see riven disposition changes on a regular basis from now onward? Assuming that you based this on the last six months of data from the players you looked at (which I base on your change for the Supra, which became more popular when Baro Kiteer sold its Vandal version in April of this year), is it safe to assume that another balance will happen next May?

- I suggest that in future you need only look at usage values for weapons on the extreme edges of the disposition range, those newly introduced within the review period and those which sit at a disposition of 1.0 to avoid further balancing issues with weapons you have already altered. I would consider my suggestions to be sensible. In truth I felt there was little need for you to look at weapons beyond these groups I have mentioned in this round of changes.

- You state that:

On 2018-11-08 at 8:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Since not all weapons are created equal, “Riven Disposition” was introduced as a sort of counterbalance, ensuring that weaker weapons get stronger Rivens and vice versa. Some effort has gone into maintaining Dispositions as new weapons and Primes are introduced, but because of Warframe’s ever-evolving status as a living game, some Dispositions are not an accurate reflection of their weapon’s popularity and power.

On 2018-11-08 at 8:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

We hope that these changes help bring us closer to the original intention of Riven Mods, reinvigorating weapon diversity at a high level.

However, there is an issue in what you have stated and I will attempt to explain. You are attempting to equate a weapon's popularity with its strength by giving so-called strong weapons low dispositions, when in reality popularity is the only measure you have applied. Take the Miter as an example - it has one of the highest dispositions in the game and yet it could be considered a strong weapon capable of high damage on changed shots, high status chance per round leading to heavy slash procs, and able to deal with crowds with innate punchthrough. It has all of the ingredients for a "strong" weapon, so why does it have a high disposition? The answer is that it is not popular amongst the player base you have chosen.

So @[DE]Connor, my last questions to you and the rest of the team are these: how do you determine what makes a "strong" weapon and a "weak" one? What is your measure, and from your perspective do riven disposition values reflect this measure combined with popularity in some way or not, if you so care about "weaker" weapons being used more than "stronger" ones and not their popularity? It seems from my perspective that the changes are all rather reactionary to popularity and usage rather than "weapon strength" and you are giving that more weighting, which seemingly contradicts your original intention of rivens being a counterbalance.

[(PSN)MintalotUK]

theyve killed half of the decent weapons in game and when enough ppl leave and stop backing the game they will listen as fortuna and railjack for most gamers they will flock for a few months but without the hard core gamers supporting and playing the game it wont last long

[(PSN)MintalotUK]

i left destiny 1 when bungie messed with weapons like most ppl and then destiny died slowly as bungie wasnt listening ,they then realised destiny 2 another flop until they decided to listen to community and release forsaken but most never went back, i only tried destiny 2 as it was free and ye it is nice but warframe is a lot faster and i liked the way u can upade and overpower your weapons when ur high enough level to do so making things a lot easier to say farm or do relics or do any mission with ease as thats what being high level is about ,then say they bring harder content out which later on would be made easy by newer weapons coming out, as ive said theyve nerfed every sniper worth using for eidilons and vectis is pointless without primed or charged chamber , they riven change doesnt make sense at all

 

[SHADOWZER057]

I am kinda ok with these changes as a Rubico Prime main, the wep wrecks mobs as always (red crits) 😆

Rubico Prime   

                                  

* Riven stats pre-fortuna: +168% CD, +198% CC and - 25+ ammo max (forgot the total ammo)

I dont get the reason for why kohm is not included on the nerf side, for a "popular" wep, it needs to follow the rest .

Meanwhile Soma Prime is enjoying the boost CHEERS DE ❤️

[(PSN)MintalotUK]

either regualr forum posters didnt want kohm touched or its DEs fave weap no other explanation

[SHADOWZER057]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)MintalotUK said:

either regualr forum posters didnt want kohm touched or its DEs fave weap no other explanation

Time will tell imo

[SHADOWZER057]

@[DE]Connor

 

Pls Don't Forget about Akstiletto Prime!!!

[Endorphinz]

While I may not agree with all the changes, you guys are the boss and have access to all the data and stuff. I do feel that these disposition changes need to happen a lot more often than they already do (this is the first major polish since their release isn't it?) And I feel that some changes needed to be more drastic, rather than being restricted to 0.2 points or less.

But In the future, if you can deliver these tweaks to us more often, I think that would vastly help balance in the game. We should have small tweaks, but with less time in between them.

[FrostDragoon]

On a more serious note, and something I don't think anyone else has really brought up as a point of its own, one of the biggest flaws with the "Popular = Powerful" fallacy is that weapons get used without rivens all the time, so this could unduly influence the judgment about which ones should have their rivens adjusted.

 

Just sayin'.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

5 hours ago, (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

So basically you're saying it was getting changed, it deserved a change but because of the main reason you wanted to change them (100% status chance), your not? 

Also, did you just confirmed they will never get a change unless a new status chance mod is added in the game? 

I'm laughing about that "reason" for days.

[(PSN)Napolleon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MintalotUK said:

either regualr forum posters didnt want kohm touched or its DEs fave weap no other explanation

Kohm is the most nerfed weapon in the game to date. With more nerf and changes than any other weapon 

[KingTikky]

hace 23 horas, Gr1mjaw dijo:

that is completely your fault alone, no one told you to buy those. more importantly DE didn't tell you to buy those promising greater returns in future.

you took a risk, and it backfired. that's how things work. deal with it.

I agree good  man, i've taken some risks in the past too like having 35 sets of trinity ready to sell in some months after she got vaulted just for trinity to be given free on twitch prime or 25 sets of ash for it to be given free because some stream did not generate the rewards almost everyone that played on week got one, i understand the word risk as i said,  i based my end game on being a merchant at most i expected to get the ugly ones to sell or just a slight increase in the price but telling me that there will be a new way to adquiere them 2 or 3 days after they announced the removal of said items just rustled my jimmies, it's like seeing a 3x1 sale on a store bought the stuff and then the  store says, guess what customers it was not really a sale so you just paid for 3 items and they are all pass the expiration day, we are grateful for your choice and have a nice day, 

So to put it simply i can not see the management of that delayed announcement on the sentinel rivens as nothing more of a wicked or incompetent knowledge of how volatil their market is, you don't believe me? go check it on the market and tell me i'm wrong. o and they might not have said get those rivens because they will get vaulted and will cost a lot in the future, but i will asume that you do not spend much time on the market by that statement but if something is getting vaulted as a merchant, you not only need to buy them but you need to have a pile of them. 

[ElocFreidon]

Literally every person who said that a weapon going down doesn't make sense because "no one uses it" clearly aren't in the loop about the over use of most weapons.

[Beautiful]

I apologize if this was already asked before but, will Artax rivens will have a comeback? Is it included in Edit 2 #1? Asking on behalf of all Artax riven holders.

@[DE]Connor 

[bibmobello]

12 minutes ago, ElocFreidon said:

Literally every person who said that a weapon going down doesn't make sense because "no one uses it" clearly aren't in the loop about the over use of most weapons.

If you  make a contorted system with hundred of mods, riven and weapons, at the end you will have something broken for sure.

[Falconer777]

4 часа назад, FrostDragoon сказал:

Wrong. They only had to read the Rivens page on the wiki. 

Wrong. No one "should" read the wiki at all in such serious matters.
Wiki is a fan resource. So basically, anyone can write anything.
DE's official resource - is this site, their tweets and devstrims.
Patch notes are published where? Here. Announcements of new additions and sales are published where? Here.
So if developers are just too lazy to give information about their own game in an accessible and always up-to-date form - sorry, this is entirely the fault of the developers.
The player should not rummage through third-party sites and YouTube channels in search of information about rivens. All this should have been posted here, and not in the shaggy 2016 branch.

This information should be available to all new (and old) players on this site, and in current form.

[FrostDragoon]

14 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

Wrong. No one "should" read the wiki at all in such serious matters.
Wiki is a fan resource. So basically, anyone can write anything.
DE's official resource - is this site, their tweets and devstrims.
Patch notes are published where? Here. Announcements of new additions and sales are published where? Here.
So if developers are just too lazy to give information about their own game in an accessible and always up-to-date form - sorry, this is entirely the fault of the developers.
The player should not rummage through third-party sites and YouTube channels in search of information about rivens. All this should have been posted here, and not in the shaggy 2016 branch.

This information should be available to all new (and old) players on this site, and in current form.

Everyone should read it for things they can't find here, because this site doesn't generally organize that information in an easy to find fashion like the wiki does.

Anyone "can" write anything, but that fan site is highly moderated and edited for accuracy.

The Wiki keeps a log of the patch history and even provides ways to search for the history of specific items so you don't have to sift through hundreds of patches for the one piece you're looking for.

The information in question wasn't even buried in patch history. It's in the main body of the Rivens page under the Disposition heading.

The devs consistently showed that they will let the community handle certain resources. The wiki, warframe.market, riven.market, etc. It's actually unreasonable to expect all that stuff on the official site, and I don't even know of a single game that does it. Even if you could provide a handful exceptions, they are just that. That is FAR from normal practice. Furthermore, the fact that the community does handle these things frees DE up to work on development and support for the game. I wouldn't want DE to have to spare resources on this type of thing even if they would consider doing so. It's a waste of their time and resources when passionate fans will gladly do it for free. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Users who are too stupid, lazy, or irresponsible to find relevant information before "spending thousands of plat" have only themselves to blame. Caveat emptor!

[Falconer777]

25 минут назад, FrostDragoon сказал:

I wouldn't want DE to have to spare resources on this type of thing even if they would consider doing so. It's a waste of their time and resources when passionate fans will gladly do it for free. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

I do not find this a "mutually beneficial" agreement. It’s just a reluctance to give comprehensive information to your players. In order to do this, you do not need to hire a whole staff, a couple of people are enough on the site. This will not affect the development of new content.

 

[(PSN)Rayzoric-Umbra]

Can I ask if anyone knows where the info was gotten to decide that Sentinel weapon rivens were that lackluster? Just curious since I actually use rivens on my Sentinels and there's quite a noticeable kill count. 

[FrostDragoon]

It takes more than that to keep accurate, up to date info for the game when it sees changes quite frequently. Don't delude yourself.

[FrostDragoon]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Rayzoric-Umbra said:

Can I ask if anyone knows where the info was gotten to decide that Sentinel weapon rivens were that lackluster? Just curious since I actually use rivens on my Sentinels and there's quite a noticeable kill count. 

That's a good question. Maybe they observed that people weren't interesting in trading them much? Maybe some forum thread about it?

[(PSN)Rayzoric-Umbra]

Just now, FrostDragoon said:

That's a good question. Maybe they observed that people weren't interesting in trading them much? Maybe some forum thread about it?

I had been trying to unveil a certain Sentinel riven and then this happened lmfao. So I honestly was hoping to find out. 

[(PSN)TheVgamer89]

This thread has been entertaining me for days. 🤣

The drama is real.

I own riven for most of the "nerfed" weapon on the list including arca, tiberon and opticor (my most beloved weapon). 

1st, if you spend 1000s of plat buying a riven knowing it will be changed one day, it is ur problem for yourself to deal with. Can't blame anyone there.

2nd, the change doesn't make the rivens or the weapons useless as many of u claim, it makes those aforementioned LESS powerful. So instead of oneshotting everything, u now have to maybe 2 shotting stuffs. People went like "this is the end of the world" or "uninstall warframe". Wow the level of drama and salty is such a sight to behold.

I did test my opticor and tiberon after the changes, they still perform as well as they were before. Opticor still oneshot most enemies, tiberon is still amazing. So no complaint here.

I am well aware that riven systems is very broken and shouldn't be handled this way in the 1st place, but it has been around long enough for people to know what the deal is and what to expect when changes come.