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[DE]Connor

Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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Just now, FrostDragoon said:

That's a good question. Maybe they observed that people weren't interesting in trading them much? Maybe some forum thread about it?

I had been trying to unveil a certain Sentinel riven and then this happened lmfao. So I honestly was hoping to find out. 

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This thread has been entertaining me for days. 🤣

The drama is real.

I own riven for most of the "nerfed" weapon on the list including arca, tiberon and opticor (my most beloved weapon). 

1st, if you spend 1000s of plat buying a riven knowing it will be changed one day, it is ur problem for yourself to deal with. Can't blame anyone there.

2nd, the change doesn't make the rivens or the weapons useless as many of u claim, it makes those aforementioned LESS powerful. So instead of oneshotting everything, u now have to maybe 2 shotting stuffs. People went like "this is the end of the world" or "uninstall warframe". Wow the level of drama and salty is such a sight to behold.

I did test my opticor and tiberon after the changes, they still perform as well as they were before. Opticor still oneshot most enemies, tiberon is still amazing. So no complaint here.

I am well aware that riven systems is very broken and shouldn't be handled this way in the 1st place, but it has been around long enough for people to know what the deal is and what to expect when changes come.  

Edited by (PS4)longlongnguyen
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I'm super glad everyone loves these riven changes and that DE is getting such positive comments, but I just wanna say Strun Wraith needs to shoot energy pellets/energy instead of normal pellets because that's important to the fashion, especially since the inside of the barrel glows so it would look cool and make sense. That is all, carry on. 

Edited by (PS4)En1gmaSPY
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I thought that it was already mentioned that Riven disposition are based on popularity of weapons when they were first introduced. As much as I hate my Rivens stats dropping, I already knew it would be coming sooner or later...

Folks chill please...

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Soma buff 0.05 .... Really?!

How about just remove Soma entirely for the game. 

It was a really handy weapon in the past, but clearly DE didn't test them to adjust their riven dispositions. Only base on how many people use them.

It really is the worst possible solution to adjust riven. Its is how exactly Blizzard, Activision and EA to handle their in game balance.   

Edited by Scarletwing
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Granted, balance is a complex thing, but these changes indicate to me that DE has no coherent methodology to what they're doing with rivens and weapon balance in general. I would urge the team to calculate based on mathematical values and modify each based on weapon useability in challenging content rather than this 'nerf what is popular' strategy.

Arca Plasmor sticks out as a bad change, even with a riven it was never very good--its primary sin is being fun. It is an underdog killer weapon: It demolishes everything up to level 80 then falls off hard, so all you have done is weaken it in the content where it was already lacking, the content where the riven actually made a difference. That so few shotgun changes were made speaks to how perplexed you seem to be about how to handle the pellet/status calculation problem. I can tell you how I'd approach this: If a weapon is a status weapon like the Kohm make sure that it can hit its status threshold without a riven. The kohm is particularly stupidly balanced where there are two tiers of rivens even when you roll status. The difference between one over 120% and one below is monstrous in both power and flexibility. You should be internally designating which weapons are crit, status or raw then adjusting base stats accordingly so people can viably use their actual weapons of choice rather than being coralled into the use of a top-performing weapon which will then be nerfed under this, frankly ridiculous, 'nerf what is popular' regime. People use what they enjoy until it stops working, then they move on. If you look at the adjustment values it seems clear this popularity method is a failure with so many Sniper Rifles receiving nerfs despite their practical uselessness in any non-eidolon content and their nerf meaning practically nothing in relation to eidolons since we will still use them in the absense of viable alternatives.

No changes at all would have been superior to this unjustified, possibly unjustifiable, smorgasbord of random and largely superficial changes which will have to be revisited if we ever get any challenging content. What should be happening is serious analysis of content design both extant and slated to give meaningful choices to players. This really is frustrating to me, and I suspect to anyone who has an interest in actual balance and not the overarching riven market.

You have done a very bad job here. I hope now that you've dipped your toes you might dive in and make a real splash.

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I find the riven changes good. They should just happen more frequently so nobody is suprised but instead used to it. I think they should happen every 2-3 months.

What i dont find good ist the "khom" topic. You cant exclude special snowflake weapons. You have to make changes for ALL weapons or non. Excluding stuff was and is never good. So i hope in the future you will include the khom in rebalancing just like all other weapons!

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Yo my Glaxion got a huuuge nerf and it's not even on the List.

It went from 260,6dmg & 148,7ms with neg down to 193dmg & 110,2ms ... i mean wtf why?

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Just wait till melee 3.0 and kripath gets nerfed by .2 along with gram losing .2 as well then sigma will get nerfed oh well if that happens you get the picture since plague kripath and gram prime are so popular now

 

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The riven change is stupid for the sheer fact that they changed already existing mods. All the investment into getting a good to god riven is completely wasted with this kind of approach. And on top of that, there was no type of compensation giving to the players like when the tonker got buttraped. It's not about strong weapons or getting good or the market. Its the principle of the matter. My rubico riven got nerfed. While it is still strong, the fact that the reward of me wasting time with that damn unlock requirement was changed has made it hard to want to play warframe.

 

 
Edited by Mideku_kun
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On 2018-11-08 at 11:24 PM, [DE]Connor said:

2. We will be revisiting Riven dispositions periodically, using the same rules laid out above, to further uphold our stated intentions.

More uncertainty for the god of uncertainty. Who needs to be paid for platinum packs anyway?

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Either we get the option to empower rivens with kuva to boost the stats by 5% at the cost of double the kuva per roll or the just bloody buff all weapons that need it and set all weapons that need a nerf to .5 like they deserve and lose all there players because they already lost alot of people who had there rivens nerfed bad including me so i sold both my rubico primes my pyrana prime and tiberon prime because of these nerfs and im never getting them back untill they get buffed by .45

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Question : If the DE has plans on putting a  designated riven pool for sentinel weapons, Is there a possibility of artax rivens also appearing again on this pool ?

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5 minutes ago, Shano. said:

Question : If the DE has plans on putting a  designated riven pool for sentinel weapons, Is there a possibility of artax rivens also appearing again on this pool ?

Unlikely since their goal with other sentinal mods was to keep them outside the regular riven pool. While originally they removed them, they never outright said they were becoming vintage or would not return.

Artax on the other hand was specifically called a vintage mod and has been treated as such by the market and playerbase ever since, and it's been quite awhile. Imo bringing it back would be close to rereleasing excal prime with how much it would damage the worth of their word. 

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If you bring Sentinel Rivens back it means all sentinel ofc not just a few selected.

You cant compare anything to excal prime, even primed chamber got reintroduced a couple of times into the game again for people to obtain while excal prime never ever and never going to be in the game again.

DE really should not play the "special snowflake game" as in balancing and adjusting all weapons BESIDES Khom. And they should also not reintroduce all sentintel weapons BESIDES Atrax. They learned their lesson now with the atrax and they will clear up their mess altogether im sure. Same as khom gonna get a rebalance when the next riven disposition rework happens.

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2 минуты назад, _Keniji_ сказал:

If you bring Sentinel Rivens back it means all sentinel ofc not just a few selected.

You cant compare anything to excal prime, even primed chamber got reintroduced a couple of times into the game again for people to obtain while excal prime never ever and never going to be in the game again.

DE really should not play the "special snowflake game" as in balancing and adjusting all weapons BESIDES Khom. And they should also not reintroduce all sentintel weapons BESIDES Atrax. They learned their lesson now with the atrax and they will clear up their mess altogether im sure. Same as khom gonna get a rebalance when the next riven disposition rework happens.

Well, first, there is no such gun as khom in the game. Second, how many artax rivens do you own?

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45 pages of responses lead to the inevitable conclusion that Riven dispo changes should have been happening MUCH more frequently until now, and should be happening MUCH more frequently going forward. The whole Riven secondary market has grown into a monster that people are extremely attached to... because it was static for such long periods that people have truly forgotten that Rivens are not static mods, they were always meant to change over time. This is SPECIFICALLY a mechanic to encourage underused weapons to see more time in the sun. Instead they’ve become “dump thousands of plat making an OP weapon even more OP” system and people are really attached to that. Heck, all this negative feedback is on the heels of DE intentionally trying to make the changes minor so as to retain the overall “value” of existing Rivens, because of the sunk Plat, when that’s exactly the opposite of what SHOULD be happening. What should happen is for over-used weapons to have their Rivens nerfed into the dirt this cycle and for Rivens for weapons nobody uses to get a monstrous buff. And that should be happening with a high degree of regularity.

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Popularity should never decide a weapon's Riven disposition. You are the design team, you should be testing your own weapons in content and seeing videos/feedback from active players as to how they perform in game and adjusting Rivens based on that so to at least some extent most weapons perform relatively on par with each other, taking into consideration their type. Poorly performing single round/slug type shotties should perform on par with or slightly better than their better counterparts when equipped with a good riven, etc. Readjusting Rivens every few days, weeks, months, or update cycles based on popularity makes absolutely zero sense.

As others have said in this thread, as myself and others have said many, many times before you literally create nothing but a yo-yo effect of increasing and decreasing popularity based on disposition when your system is arbitrated that way. Balance your weapons as best you can, then use Rivens to tweak that performance. Anything else is going to continue to be a catastrophe. How many players did you just lose because you decided to exempt Kohm yet nerfed extremely well-liked weapons like the Arca Plasmor?

Worse still is that one, some weapons you increased the dispo on were still nerfed in their stats because of inconsistencies in your system or because you intentionally tweaked them internally further, and two, that you ruined your own massive launch of Fortuna by dropping this without having a full Dev Workshop discussion beforehand. I cannot fathom that you didn't know their would be unhappy players even just discussing this, but to go live with this and pick and choose favorites smacks of poor connection to your community.

I'm not quitting; I play casually as the mood strikes, and the Login Reward revamp and Daily Standing caps on Fortuna/PoE already showed me that you only value one style of players that I don't fit into. I am, however, with this change made aware of things like the Ash and Ember nerfs, random changes, your insistence on ignoring feedback on systems like Endless Kuva and the Riven system in general, and solidified in not giving this game more than a trickle of cash for cosmetics here and there. Kinda sad cause I just picked up some new Tennogen and there's more that I'm looking forward to, but I just can't see the value in supporting the game heavily when you're so arbitrary with such sweeping changes for some elements of the game while staying hands off for others no matter how much constructive feedback is given.

Things like this really kill a lot of the good will you've built up with other decisions. Polarizing your players so heavily, to the extent that some delete all of their earned items, quit en masse, etc., should tell you that acting this way will do your game far more harm than benefit. I hope in the future you're more in touch with what your players want and how they feel before you do something so divisive again. This will definitely continue to put a pall over the Fortuna launch.

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that moment when SINGLE VIPER gets nerfed

im not an avid riven user, but damn alot of these change are good for nothing

 

Edited by skymarzo
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1 minute ago, skymarzo said:

that moment when SINGLE VIPER gets nerfed

Yep. I was talking about this earlier. It got nerfed because everyone uses it (as MR fodder) and usually without a riven, but you know... "popularity = power"

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DE needs to play there own game to understand what is good and what isn't and rework the MR requirements for weapons that people use for endgame content so people stop crying over some weapons being nerfed.

As for the changes they made kinda funny that they Nerf all the low to mid tier weapons cause that's what the mass do play im thinking DE its time to give us harder content cause you dont even need to forma to play the maps.

This game is challenging for new players but gets stupid easy as you aquire everything time for some type of change.

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40 minutes ago, (PS4)buddysball7 said:

DE needs to play there own game to understand what is good and what isn't and rework the MR requirements for weapons that people use for endgame content so people stop crying over some weapons being nerfed.

As for the changes they made kinda funny that they Nerf all the low to mid tier weapons cause that's what the mass do play im thinking DE its time to give us harder content cause you dont even need to forma to play the maps.

This game is challenging for new players but gets stupid easy as you aquire everything time for some type of change.

They already did this at the beginning of the year. It didn't really help anything, and in my opinion, actually hindered newer players in some ways.

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22 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

They already did this at the beginning of the year. It didn't really help anything, and in my opinion, actually hindered newer players in some ways.

They did but it was really dumb DE play style is earth and its hard for them lol testing means actually being good at there own game just saying

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