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Dev Workshop: Riven Disposition Changes

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That's just not the case. The problem is they work on the game so much that they may not have time or interest in just playing it. Beyond that, playing it doesn't necessarily mean they will draw the right conclusions. I see countless players who reach bad conclusions this way.

Edited by FrostDragoon
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I don't understand why people cheer these nerfs after people pay plat or grind hard to get a decent riven to get them nerfed. There needs to be better explanation why other than people using them its like your forcing people to use crappy weapons just bring the others up. Aggravating!

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)ThEMzA420AllN said:

I don't understand why people cheer these nerfs after people pay plat or grind hard to get a decent riven to get them nerfed. There needs to be better explanation why other than people using them its like your forcing people to use crappy weapons just bring the others up. Aggravating!

Speaking only for myself, I never cheered the nerfs in particular. I simply appreciated that the changes (both nerfs and buffs) were small incremental ones rather than broad sweeping ones. However, I do oppose the entitled whine that people bring with the "I spent plat" nonsense. Rivens were always subject to change, and the player market (especially when trading plat) is always at your own risk. Everyone knows this. For those that "didn't," ignorance is no excuse (as has been explained repeatedly already), nor is it DE's problem or fault.

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15 minutes ago, (XB1)ThEMzA420AllN said:

I don't understand why people cheer these nerfs after people pay plat or grind hard to get a decent riven to get them nerfed. There needs to be better explanation why other than people using them its like your forcing people to use crappy weapons just bring the others up. Aggravating!

The reason is making us want to use other weapons and forma them, and buy forma  bundles,  and buy plat.

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It's not really fair making disposition changes based on player usage. Most of the weapons that got nerfed had fun mechanics which is why the community uses them (e.g. tiberon, plasmor, euphona, pandero). But they are not entirely god tier like the tigris p. 

This change forces players to use weapons they don't like so the rivens on their fave weapons dont get nerfed. I dont see any sense in this.

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25 minutes ago, JawNuts said:

It's not really fair making disposition changes based on player usage. Most of the weapons that got nerfed had fun mechanics which is why the community uses them (e.g. tiberon, plasmor, euphona, pandero). But they are not entirely god tier like the tigris p. 

This change forces players to use weapons they don't like so the rivens on their fave weapons dont get nerfed. I dont see any sense in this.

Watch the damage and the number of enemies killed  of a good weapon with a riven and the tigris prime (with or without a riven)...

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I wonder if any of [DE]'s staff will read this post but i do wonder:

 

when you was recalculating popularity of weapons; are you counting a weapon used with a riven on it as the same as a weapon used just on its own

as the post edit imply you do not seem to care if a weapon was used due to a riven if kohm 'was on the list to be nerf'ed but didn't because the riven power creep was the only reason the kohm was usable (and no weapon should get special treatment. if you care enough to do so buffing the base weapon is what your meant to do)

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6 hours ago, Kadromar said:

everything up to level 80 then falls off hard

Patently false, especially as it uses rifle status and specifically has enemy punchthrough

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19 minutes ago, ShadowWolfX4 said:

So they completely crapped on EVERY ONE of my FAVORITE Weapons. Thanks....

They "crapped"  YOUR FAVORITE because they was favorite by many other people...

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42 minutes ago, (PS4)Soul_o-O_Eater said:

Finally a single viper Nerf. I was running around, not able to get any kills cause all these kids spraying single viper and hogging the action. Thank you, Warframe.

Actually, I think they didn't nerf the single Viper enough. The thing is still godly op. DE needs to keep nerfing the single Viper so we get a chance to see other secondaries used by players lel.

Edited by JawNuts
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37 minutes ago, JawNuts said:

Actually, I think they didn't nerf the single Viper enough. The thing is still godly op. DE needs to keep nerfing the single Viper so we get a chance to see other secondaries used by players lel.

It can be a decent pistol though it does lose a bit of killing power needing that Arbiter magazine mod for sustained fire though without, it still can put a lot of rounds down-wind quickly. The dispositions though were stated to be intended to be based on popularity though and not power potential. Could be though that players will continue the usage trends the gun currently has and it will go up or down at random in the future.

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So i bought 50x sentinel weapon riven then u saying these rivens are coming back? Aight im done good bye

 

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2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Patently false, especially as it uses rifle status and specifically has enemy punchthrough

Since it has incredibly low firerate and no slash value its value as a status weapon is nominal; also, we can assume it still uses shotgun calculations it just happens to be divided among 1 pellet. That's actually what makes it so bad as a status weapon, if it fired a base of 4 pellets it'd be exponentially stronger since it easily hits 100% status and would be a solid group debuffer after multishot, but it doesn't and it isn't. Currently its best build involves stacking as much raw damage as you can after crit mods. It lives and dies on its high base damage because it isn't a big exponential scaling weapon with its modest crit chance and multiplier these problems are further exacerbated by one of the longer reloads. It performs its role worse than an Amprex or an Ignis does and with less flexibilty and its role can also largely be fulfilled by melee, at least for now. When you're fighting late survival and things of that nature it's nowhere near as good. I imagine if it didn't mulch enemies up to sortie 3 sans riven and satisfyingly disintegrate enemies skyward it wouldn't be half as popular and we'd have seen an entirely different disposition adjustment--which is what makes the way DE has approached this so irritating.

There should be a paradigm shift because popularity as a metric for mathematical balancing is a terrible basis to work from and popularity in content below sortie 3 as a baseline should be practically irrelevant to balancing as it stands. Of course, I'm always spitballing off the assumption that there is an intention to make challenging content for warframe at some stage and rebalance factions so that non-grineer enemies are more threatening than a wet fart. Dreams, eh? If we're talking about the game now as if it were a finished product only in need of a last balancing patch then I'd want a lot more dispositions to go up and a lot more to go down along with base stat changes so that they all have niches in magical Christmas land. The constant disillusionment about DEs systems makes me enjoy the generally excellent content far less than I otherwise would.

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2 hours ago, im_not_swindler said:

So i bought 50x sentinel weapon riven then u saying these rivens are coming back? Aight im done good bye

 

Lol again, 🤣 

It is your darn fault. 

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Hohohol-eee S#&$ reading this thread is like watching a nuke go off before my eyes even if some of these changes are miniscule. Not nerfing the Kohm is probably a good idea because that would be like dropping a second one.

I see some buffs here, some of which that are really, genuinely appreciated, like the zenith, hema, and knell buffs cause I like those weapons a lot and feel like they're super underrated, and it cannot be understated how thankful I am for said buffs amidst this sea of negativity, but I've got to say a lot of the negativity appears to be warranted because the buffs don't seem to outweigh the (sometimes puzzling) nerfs.

Some examples: Outside of using it with a mag bubble, I can't think of a scenario where the miter isn't outclassed by most weapons when it comes to armored enemies yet it's been nerfed. The Arca Plasmor only shines with a saryn spore build since it also doesn't hold up very well against armor, yet that got a substantial nerf. The Azima really is not that great of a weapon even with a riven mod unless I'm missing some super secret niche combination of mods that suddenly makes it good even with it's cool secondary fire, yet that got nerfed too.

I get that the lato vandal returning changed the context of how powerful that gun is in the context of a meta but I still wouldn't really say it called for a nerf considering how powerful even the vandal still isn't compared to some other pistols; This one especially seems to be an indicator that things are going off popularity alone (remember, budding newbies are using the braton skana lato trifecta which would explain the popularity of the lato assuming that things haven't changed much from when I started playing like 4 years ago.)

And then there is some stuff that needed a bit more of a buff than it got, for example: The Quartakk, which has a lot of trouble keeping up with any of it's more valuable shotgun bretheren (Yes, I know it's technically a rifle, but let's not kid ourselves here, it's as much a "rifle" as the lenz is a bow and arrow) only got a .5 buff to it's disposition. With rifle rivens as rare (and by extension expensive) as they are today, this just perplexes me a bit.

This update makes me glad I am a build nomad who barely gets into the riven game because if I had invested enough plat into rivens to make The Corpus blush like some of the people here I'd be pretty upsetti spaghetti too, but as it stands, I'm just in a disposition (no pun intended) of wondering what led to some of these decisions. Like, some of the changes here are genuinely confusing; this feels like it was done looking at only usage stats and never considering the actual context in which some of these weapons are used, or how powerful they actually are.

I hope melee riven repositions don't end up being as allegedly slapdash as these changes appear to be. There needs to be less nerfs, more buffs. If a weapon is not competitive, make it competitive, don't lower the overall standards of what the competition is.

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On 2018-11-08 at 4:00 PM, Peter said:

And why is Lanka not dispo 1?? the most used weapon in the game.

It only has one job. Outside of that, it isn't used much.

There are also new hard enemies coming out. Having your weapon for that content nerfed to the ground after investment would suck a lot.

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8 hours ago, WMan22 said:

This one especially seems to be an indicator that things are going off popularity alone

That’s how disposition works. That’s how it’s stated to work. Rivens for more popular weapons are weaker than Rivens for less popular weapons.

I think it’s wrong to treat Rivens as a means of balancing weapons, it’s just a means of diversifying what you see at end-game. It feels like there’s a big disconnect between how DE sees Rivens working and how Riven-trading players see Rivens working.

DE’s model is: Player 1 unveils Riven for ABC > ABC, which Player 1 hasn’t used since Ceres, is now the strongest weapon in their arsenal > Player 1 runs endgame content with ABC. Meanwhile Player 2 unveils a Riven for XYZ, and you can see where this goes. 4 people running a Sortie and for each one, the “strongest weapon available” to them is wildly different from the others. 

But with trading, what happens is: Player 1 acquires popular end-game weapon > Player 1 spends $30 on a Riven to make popular end-game weapon even MORE powerful > Player 1 uses his newfound broken strength to cheese the grind for Rivens > Player 1 gets another Riven for his popular end-game weapon > Player 1 sells this to Player 2, who also has the same popular end-game weapon, for $30.

Suddenly, 4 players running a Sortie are all using the same gun again. Which is exactly what Rivens were meant to stop from happening.

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3 minutes ago, RhythmScript said:

That’s how disposition works. That’s how it’s stated to work. Rivens for more popular weapons are weaker than Rivens for less popular weapons.

I think it’s wrong to treat Rivens as a means of balancing weapons, it’s just a means of diversifying what you see at end-game. It feels like there’s a big disconnect between how DE sees Rivens working and how Riven-trading players see Rivens working.

DE’s model is: Player 1 unveils Riven for ABC > ABC, which Player 1 hasn’t used since Ceres, is now the strongest weapon in their arsenal > Player 1 runs endgame content with ABC. Meanwhile Player 2 unveils a Riven for XYZ, and you can see where this goes. 4 people running a Sortie and for each one, the “strongest weapon available” to them is wildly different from the others. 

But with trading, what happens is: Player 1 acquires popular end-game weapon > Player 1 spends $30 on a Riven to make popular end-game weapon even MORE powerful > Player 1 uses his newfound broken strength to cheese the grind for Rivens > Player 1 gets another Riven for his popular end-game weapon > Player 1 sells this to Player 2, who also has the same popular end-game weapon, for $30.

Suddenly, 4 players running a Sortie are all using the same gun again. Which is exactly what Rivens were meant to stop from happening.

Dude this system is broken. Most weapon are crap even with a riven. The trick is with some weapons you can reach 100% and more crit chances, you use hunter ammunition and you have a god weapon. Can't reach 100 crit chances? you can throw that weapon away...

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High riven disposition weapons also get the short end of the stick due to getting both the highest bonuses and the highest drawbacks, in a counterintuitive way... this is completely backwards.

If a weapon is so "bad" that it deserves disposition 5, it makes sense that it needs all the help possible, not that any negative rolled on its rivens would be the maximum possible number alongside its buffs.

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TLDR Version, because you don't wanna read 6 paragraphs from me on the subject!

*ahem* Nooooooooo!

I still want Sentinel rivens for the higher-status weapons! Let me crank their status to 100% no-multishot so I can have a Blast-centric knockdown machine to support my melee efforts or help prime Condition Overload!

My advice is make all the sentinel weapons higher status, and put a high priority on rolling status chance and duration on sentinels. Don't have them as fighters who always have poop weapons, have them as utilities that can add to combat prowess without doing huge damage.

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2 hours ago, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

TLDR Version, because you don't wanna read 6 paragraphs from me on the subject!

*ahem* Nooooooooo!

I still want Sentinel rivens for the higher-status weapons! Let me crank their status to 100% no-multishot so I can have a Blast-centric knockdown machine to support my melee efforts or help prime Condition Overload!

My advice is make all the sentinel weapons higher status, and put a high priority on rolling status chance and duration on sentinels. Don't have them as fighters who always have poop weapons, have them as utilities that can add to combat prowess without doing huge damage.

I'd actually prefer their weapons be able to contribute damage as well as what you suggested. For the longest time, and still quite often now, I only run Carrier without a weapon (because it has to compete for mods with my weapons and doesn't do $#!7; anyway). I don't expect them to be able to carry you in most content, but it would be nice if the damage they did was at least noticeable/helpful.

Edited by FrostDragoon

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