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What Needs To Happen To Single Target Damage Spells


merryfistmas
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First off, single target damage spells are useless, we all know this. They either don't have the dps of our secondaries nor the damage per shot of our primaries making them inferior versions of things that don't cost energy. One of the reasons I decided to post this is because of the purposed ember fireball change and how, unless increased to astronomical damage levels, it will always be useless. Single targets simply aren't threatening in this game, A heavy gunner isn't dangerous by itself, it's dangerous when surrounded by other enemies.

 

Let's Shuriken VS Lanka as an example: You can skip this if you want, it's fairly well known.

 

The Lanka build I will be using in this example is Serration, MS, AP, Crit chance, Crit damage, Ice, hammer shot, and speed trigger. This is what I use on sniper weapons and you can use a different build for calculations.

 

Shuriken does 1300 damage to a single target with max focus. it costs 25 energy and has a cast time.

 

The Lanka does 250 damage per shot which can be increased to 1457.5 (662.5 serrated damage, 397.5 Ice, 397.5 AP) damage with maxed serration, ice, and AP damage. This is without a multishot or a crit (5% chance of happening) up to a maximum of 15158 damage with multishot and 2 crits. This isn't even accounting for headshots, sonar, roar, M-prime, or any number of rifle amps.

 

I'll spare you the long calculations, with all the possible outcomes of crits and multishot and with all the outcomes weighted by their respective percent chances of happening the Lanka with all these mods maxed will deal an average of 8584.675 damage per shot which is over 6 times that of shuriken. (if these numbers are wrong feel free to correct me)

 

Obviously it takes many hundreds of times as many resources to get a max build on a weapon than it does to max a single warframe ability but these abilities are what make frames special and shouldn't be completely overshadowed by weapons. It also doesn't take much time before your weapons start exceeding your frames single target damage even if you're a new player.

 

____________________Skip to here for idea_________________

 

How do we make abilities like fireball and shuriken more useful? well there are a couple of ways.

 

Firstly, warframes "1's" could have 10 fusion ranks like vitality and redirection. This would allow players who forma'd their frames to start filling up their spare mod capacity that resulted when aura's were introduced but more importantly it would allow these abilities to scale better without being OP early on since new players wouldn't have the resources to max them but players with weapons that currently outperform them would.

 

For example, shuriken could do 125/250/500/1000/1500/2000/3000/4500/7500/10000/15000 damage to a single target. This would put it on par with high end sniper weapons in damage per shot.

 

A spell like fireball could have it's radius, damage, DoT, and projectile speed increased over 10 ranks and at the last rank would function similarly to a grineer napalms weapon.

 

Obviously this wouldn't work for all 1 abilities. having slash dash and pull go up to rank 10 would either be completely overpowered or just unnecessary.

 

Another idea would be to have all single target abilities to either have some form of utility or interaction with other skills and weapons. For example fireball could melt armor and shuriken could allow you to teleport to a target for free.

 

Anyway, those are my ideas. Feel free to tell me why they're good or bad.

Edited by merryfistmas
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As an Ash user, I can tell you that shuriken does a max of 650 damage, for the shuriken now are homing, but home in to the core of a enemy, and it is nearly impossible to get headshots now, which is where you probably got that high damage number from in the first place, right? Anywho, I agree with your ideas mostly.

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As an Ash user, I can tell you that shuriken does a max of 650 damage, for the shuriken now are homing, but home in to the core of a enemy, and it is nearly impossible to get headshots now, which is where you probably got that high damage number from in the first place, right? Anywho, I agree with your ideas mostly.

Unless you mean that both shurikens hit, which would make sense, except the homing is pretty terrible right now, so it is pretty hard to get both shurikens on a single target.

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I see, well in that case, I think DE should focus on the ability to A. throw more than 2 shurikens B. have ash throw multiple shurikens in an ark in front of him, that then home in if there are targets that are in range, or C. have the capability to switch back to manually aiming one shuriken, but the shuriken this time would be more in the style of a windmill shuriken, and be as hard hitting as Bladestorm. I am focusing on Ash because he is my favorite warframe right now, and I don't have that much experience with other frames. What do you think?

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First off, single target damage spells are useless, we all know this. They either don't have the dps of our secondaries nor the damage per shot of our primaries making them inferior versions of things that don't cost energy. One of the reasons I decided to post this is because of the purposed ember fireball change and how, unless increased to astronomical damage levels, it will always be useless. Single targets simply aren't threatening in this game, A heavy gunner isn't dangerous by itself, it's dangerous when surrounded by other enemies.

Let's Shuriken VS Lanka as an example: You can skip this if you want, it's fairly well known.

The Lanka build I will be using in this example is Serration, MS, AP, Crit chance, Crit damage, Ice, hammer shot, and speed trigger. This is what I use on sniper weapons and you can use a different build for calculations.

Shuriken does 1300 damage to a single target with max focus. it costs 25 energy and has a cast time.

The Lanka does 250 damage per shot which can be increased to 1457.5 (662.5 serrated damage, 397.5 Ice, 397.5 AP) damage with maxed serration, ice, and AP damage. This is without a multishot or a crit (5% chance of happening) up to a maximum of 15158 damage with multishot and 2 crits. This isn't even accounting for headshots, sonar, roar, M-prime, or any number of rifle amps.

I'll spare you the long calculations, with all the possible outcomes of crits and multishot and with all the outcomes weighted by their respective percent chances of happening the Lanka with all these mods maxed will deal an average of 8584.675 damage per shot which is over 6 times that of shuriken. (if these numer should wrong feel free to correct me)

Obviously it takes many hundreds of times as many resources to get a max build on a weapon than it does to a max a single warframe ability but these abilities are what make frames special and shouldn't be completely overshadowed by weapons. It also doesn't take much time before your weapons start exceeding your frames single target damage even if you're a new player.

____________________Skip to here for idea_________________

How do we make abilities like fireball and shuriken more useful? well there are a couple of ways.

Firstly, warframes "1's" could have 10 fusion ranks like vitality and redirection. This would allow players who forma'd their frames to start filling up their spare mod capacity that resulted when aura's were introduced but more importantly it would allow these abilities to scale better without being OP early on since new players wouldn't have the resources to max them but players with weapons that currently outperform them would.

For example, shuriken could do 125/250/500/1000/1500/2000/3000/4500/7500/10000/15000 damage to a single target. This would put it on par with high end sniper weapons in damage per shot.

A spell like fireball could have it's radius, damage, DoT, and projectile speed increased over 10 ranks and at the last rank would function similarly to a grineer napalms weapon.

Obviously this wouldn't work for all 1 abilities. having slash dash and pull go up to rank 10 would either be completely overpowered or just unnecessary.

Other idea would be to have all single target abilities to either have some form of utility or interaction with other skills and weapons. For example fireball could melt armor and shuriken could allow you to teleport to a target for free.

Anyway, those are my ideas. Feel free to tell me why they're good or bad.

Hold on. Now I agree with what you are saying about most lvl 1 dmg abilities in this game, but I must disagree about Shuriken being underwhelming. For a Warframe like Ash, Shuriken plays the very helpful role of support dmg, that is both long range and nearly instant. Because of this, Shuriken compliments weapons with low rates of fire. Even with high RoF weapons, it still compliments those by being the side arm at the press of a button. No need to switch weapons when you run out of ammo in your mag.

Maybe its because I have maxed Focus,Steamline and Flow, but I feel that the amount of dmg Shuriken does more than makes up for the it's energy cost.

Don't misunderstand though, I'd always be up for a buff for Shuriken, but I would not say that it is lacking right now.

Edited by Maljas23
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