Fixing the "riven" problem

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

I'm making this post here as this is one of the few threads not divided between the systems.

As everyone knows riven dispositions were updated recently and it's caused quite the... Stir.

The system has many fundamental flaws that de has ignored that have been showing for a long time but they either have not or will not fix them. DE has been shown to listen to the players and while this issue is no vivergate, its still an issue that will keep popping up all the time.

Simply whining and complaining do not solve the problem nor help find a solution. This topic is for brainstorming in a way that maybe DE will pay attention to. Idk if This shpuld be in feedback or something else, I'm just putting it here because it's a discussion looking for a solution.

First the problems...

1st, riven mods do not make bad weapons good. Bad weapons like the base lato are bad because mods cannot save their low stats no matter how big the buff is.

2nd, basing a rivens stats on usage dose not work. Popular weapons will be popular with or without riven mods. And what happens when a bad weapon is made popular by its riven mod? It's use climbs then the rivens power begins to fall.

 

3ed, rivens do not respect player time or investment. Imagine getting a riven for a good weapon. Then Imagine getting a good roll for that riven. Now imagine watching as said riven slowly becomes weaker before your eyes over time hitting rock bottom at soma levels of disposition.

 

4th, the rolls we have are tied to the disposition? This is what annoys me personally as it is also tied into my 3ed point and my second.

 

Now for my solutions...

 

1st, make rivens effect the base stats of the weapon before mods. This makes it to where the statistics of a weak weapon no longer hold it back. As is a weapon with 5 status and a 100% status boost will still only result in 10% status. Now say that weapon gets a 10% added to the base BEFORE MODS.

That means instead of 19% you'd get with the riven AND dual stats you would get 42% from the same equation. Instantly better and puts a LATO (not the vandal) into a useable position.

The stats for each weapon type would need to be ranged for the type of weapon it is. So say an AR(like the bratons and somas) riven would provide 10-20 damage, while a BR(like the sybaris is or latron) would get something closer to 40-80 damage. Or machien pistols, to semi shooters, and so on.

Think of it like rhino's buff to chroma buff in how it would work.

 

2nd, give roll ranges tiers. Don't punish people for using weapins they like. Insted of a .50-1.5 system use a 3 tier system. Tier 1, over used weapons like the soma, a X1.0 multiplyer. Tier 2, used weapons, a X1.5 multiplyer. Tier 3, a X2.0 multiplyer. Keeping weapons in one if these 3 categories means your not slowly watching your work fluctuate between good, not good and total worthlesness. Your rewarded for using less popular weapons while not being punished for using your favorites. Thus also aliviating points 3 and 4 at the same time.

 

Rivens are arguably a very important system to a good number of players. It's also extremely flawed and dosent even do what it was originally meant to do. This is just my solution but I'd like others to add to it or propose your own. I know its not likely to go anywhere with fortuna being all the rage right now but nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX

[AndouRaiton]

First up, this should go into the feedback thread; cause that's what this is, feedback on the riven system. My solution would be;

1. Disposition is determined by how strong the weapon is; i.e. a lato would have a 5 disposition whilst Gram prime gets lowest disposition. This way weak weapons can now get buffed by rivens which is what this system was originally for.

2. OR they need to make disposition updating a common occurrence, say once a fortnight, where the dispositions for all weapons would be recalculated so this way the META fluctuates over time in a predictable way instead of barely changing for years and then a sudden change.

3. Separate the disposition on different versions of the weapons, i.e. Gram can have 5 disposition, whilst Gram Prime should have 1 disposition as it's already strong.

4. As you said; rivens should be applied before any other mod to increase the effectiveness of bringing weak weapons into a viable position.

I know a lot of people don't like the idea of their favorite weapons becoming weaker but that isn't what this system was for; it was for making weak weapons strong NOT make strong weapons even stronger or making your favorite weapon stronger. But, hey, that's just my interpretation and belief of what this system should be.

[wtflag]

Or they can update the disposition regularly in a much more timely manner so that players do not foolishly think it will never change and pay thousands of plat for a temporary object. Something like every 3 months.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

Just now, wtflag said:

Or they can update the disposition regularly in a much more timely manner so that players do not foolishly think it will never change and pay thousands of plat for a temporary object. Something like every 3 months.

that was also part of the problem i forgot to mention. Thx for bringing it up.

[Spectre-8]

1 hour ago, (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX said:

I'm making this post here as this is one of the few threads not divided between the systems.

As everyone knows riven dispositions were updated recently and it's caused quite the... Stir.

The system has many fundamental flaws that de has ignored that have been showing for a long time but they either have not or will not fix them. DE has been shown to listen to the players and while this issue is no vivergate, its still an issue that will keep popping up all the time.

Simply whining and complaining do not solve the problem nor help find a solution. This topic is for brainstorming in a way that maybe DE will pay attention to. Idk if This shpuld be in feedback or something else, I'm just putting it here because it's a discussion looking for a solution.

First the problems...

1st, riven mods do not make bad weapons good. Bad weapons like the base lato are bad because mods cannot save their low stats no matter how big the buff is.

2nd, basing a rivens stats on usage dose not work. Popular weapons will be popular with or without riven mods. And what happens when a bad weapon is made popular by its riven mod? It's use climbs then the rivens power begins to fall.

 

3ed, rivens do not respect player time or investment. Imagine getting a riven for a good weapon. Then Imagine getting a good roll for that riven. Now imagine watching as said riven slowly becomes weaker before your eyes over time hitting rock bottom at soma levels of disposition.

 

4th, the rolls we have are tied to the disposition? This is what annoys me personally as it is also tied into my 3ed point and my second.

 

Now for my solutions...

 

1st, make rivens effect the base stats of the weapon before mods. This makes it to where the statistics of a weak weapon no longer hold it back. As is a weapon with 5 status and a 100% status boost will still only result in 10% status. Now say that weapon gets a 10% added to the base BEFORE MODS.

That means instead of 19% you'd get with the riven AND dual stats you would get 42% from the same equation. Instantly better and puts a LATO (not the vandal) into a useable position.

The stats for each weapon type would need to be ranged for the type of weapon it is. So say an AR(like the bratons and somas) riven would provide 10-20 damage, while a BR(like the sybaris is or latron) would get something closer to 40-80 damage. Or machien pistols, to semi shooters, and so on.

Think of it like rhino's buff to chroma buff in how it would work.

 

2nd, give roll ranges tiers. Don't punish people for using weapins they like. Insted of a .50-1.5 system use a 3 tier system. Tier 1, over used weapons like the soma, a X1.0 multiplyer. Tier 2, used weapons, a X1.5 multiplyer. Tier 3, a X2.0 multiplyer. Keeping weapons in one if these 3 categories means your not slowly watching your work fluctuate between good, not good and total worthlesness. Your rewarded for using less popular weapons while not being punished for using your favorites. Thus also aliviating points 3 and 4 at the same time.

 

Rivens are arguably a very important system to a good number of players. It's also extremely flawed and dosent even do what it was originally meant to do. This is just my solution but I'd like others to add to it or propose your own. I know its not likely to go anywhere with fortuna being all the rage right now but nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

Wrong forum section broseph .

 

[Xenonthetenno]

35 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

I know a lot of people don't like the idea of their favorite weapons becoming weaker but that isn't what this system was for; it was for making weak weapons strong NOT make strong weapons even stronger or making your favorite weapon stronger. But, hey, that's just my interpretation and belief of what this system should be.

The problem here is : weak weapon is still weak with the riven.

For example, no matter how good your riven is, a plasma sword is still a plasma sword that noone uses it, and fang prime is still a fang prime which everyone is waiting for fang prime prime.

2nd, riven is not free. It takes weeks, or even months to get the wepon you want and needs tons of kuba and time to make it good

At least we need some ways to extract kubas from the riven

[4thBro]

46 minutes ago, wtflag said:

Or they can update the disposition regularly in a much more timely manner so that players do not foolishly think it will never change and pay thousands of plat for a temporary object. Something like every 3 months.

 

45 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX said:

that was also part of the problem i forgot to mention. Thx for bringing it up.

The thing is, that has always been how Dispositions were supposed to function.

 

People upset about the Riven update are basically upset that they spent a ton of plat on an item they assumed was going to be CONTINUOUSLY neglected even further. Then when the system does what it was supposed to do, you all freak out???

 

You're like a bunch of complacent mobsters flipping a sh** because the police finally grew a pair and arrested you.

[weedjedi]

How about first of all make it so rivens aren't so god damn NON FUN AND VERY VERY ANNOYING TO UNLOCK NOT FUN AT ALL how about we fix that problem first.

I've literally looked at the description of what i need to go through to unlock these things and uninstalled, many times... i will again soon im sure.

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, weedjedi said:

How about first of all make it so rivens aren't so god damn NON FUN AND VERY VERY ANNOYING TO UNLOCK NOT FUN AT ALL how about we fix that problem first.

I've literally looked at the description of what i need to go through to unlock these things and uninstalled, many times... i will again soon im sure.

Hi, just coming here to ask, if you uninstalled the game so many times over something so small, why are you constantly reinstalling and also, why do you seem like you're bragging about it? 

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, weedjedi said:

How about first of all make it so rivens aren't so god damn NON FUN AND VERY VERY ANNOYING TO UNLOCK NOT FUN AT ALL how about we fix that problem first.

I've literally looked at the description of what i need to go through to unlock these things and uninstalled, many times... i will again soon im sure.

Riven unlocks are sheer, tedious annoyance. None of the conditions are fun. A good number of them arent realistic. And ALL OF THEM are annoying.

I mean, what game says, "Here is your late game reward from the most difficult (and tedious) mission set in the game. Now grind like a fool with ridiculous limitations attached in order to actually USE it. Its insulting, and says clearly that DE cares neither about your time, or whether you ENJOY the game, so long as you are HOOKED on it.

[Sajochi]

3 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Riven unlocks are sheer, tedious annoyance. None of the conditions are fun. A good number of them arent realistic. And ALL OF THEM are annoying.

I mean, what game says, "Here is your late game reward from the most difficult (and tedious) mission set in the game. Now grind like a fool with ridiculous limitations attached in order to actually USE it. Its insulting, and says clearly that DE cares neither about your time, or whether you ENJOY the game, so long as you are HOOKED on it.

Oh look, you're insulted again. Merc come on, there are other words beside that. Also, are you just going to as many threads as you can and pseudo dev bashing? Because I've yet to see any constructive feedback from you. Just you being insulted and taking jabs at the devs.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Sajochi

[wtflag]

14 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

You're like a bunch of complacent mobsters flipping a sh** because the police finally grew a pair and arrested you.

I know disposition is supposed to be adjusted every so often.

I support regular disposition adjustments.

I said so as much in the post you quoted.

Why are you calling me a mobster?😠

Edited November 9, 2018 by wtflag

[Xenonthetenno]

4 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

 

The thing is, that has always been how Dispositions were supposed to function.

 

People upset about the Riven update are basically upset that they spent a ton of plat on an item they assumed was going to be CONTINUOUSLY neglected even further. Then when the system does what it was supposed to do, you all freak out???

 

You're like a bunch of complacent mobsters flipping a sh** because the police finally grew a pair and arrested you.

At least they can tell people when they'll rebalance it.

The system didnt work for more than a year

It like police not doing their jobs for years and ignored you when your shop was robbed, and then suddenly they start to work and you were unlucky.

[4thBro]

Rivens are an old concept. No, they're not fun. They weren't made with a "fun check" actively in mind of the devs. They just simply thought of an idea, it sounded cool, and it was implemented. It happens.

 

I'm sure if Rivens were made today, I wouldn't be limited to 15 of them at a time, and I wouldn't have to shoot 17 f***ing birds in one jump on the Plains of Eidolon.

 

But all that being said, there's no reason to uninstall because of them. I don't even USE Rivens, and I constantly find myself being a top performer in ANYTHING outside Tridolon hunts where some idiot has a Lanka Riven that 1-shots every phase. That's the only content where the Rivens make such an obvious difference, and the reason is because it's the equivalent of being in a narrow hallway with a target dummy on the other side, where OF COURSE the clown with the 5k plat Riven is gonna outperform you.

And honestly, it used to get to me. But now, it doesn't. Because I realized it was stupid to let it. Frankly, Eidolons are not fun, and there are other ways of farming plat.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

The only change DE needs to implement is to make unveiled rivens unable to be traded.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, Xenonthetenno said:

At least they can tell people when they'll rebalance it.

The system didnt work for more than a year

It like police not doing their jobs for years and ignored you when your shop was robbed, and then suddenly they start to work and you were unlucky.

A better comparison would be that, for years, police ignored OTHER people robbing shops, then when you looked around & said, "I can probably get away with it too," the police kicked back into action just as you robbed your first place.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

20 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

 

The thing is, that has always been how Dispositions were supposed to function.

 

People upset about the Riven update are basically upset that they spent a ton of plat on an item they assumed was going to be CONTINUOUSLY neglected even further. Then when the system does what it was supposed to do, you all freak out???

 

You're like a bunch of complacent mobsters flipping a sh** because the police finally grew a pair and arrested you.

For one, I wasnt complaining about the update. I was saying the person was right and that was an issue id initially forgot about. Updating dispositions is not the problem. It was the infrequency. Also plz quit with the name calling its not constructive and only starts arguments.

[Xenonthetenno]

2 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

A better comparison would be that, for years, police ignored OTHER people robbing shops, then when you looked around & said, "I can probably get away with it too," the police kicked back into action just as you robbed your first place.

Agree and i think police which do their job 'sometimes' is useless

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX said:

For one, I wasnt complaining about the update. I was saying the person was right and that was an issue id initially forgot about. Updating dispositions is not the problem. It was the infrequency. Also plz quit with the name calling its not constructive and only starts arguments.

I don't even know WHERE I name-called, and you managed to let "it" detract from the entire rest of the post???

 

Yes, the infrequency is a problem. But this argues in the opposite direction most people are thinking.

Let's use the same kind of theoretical scenario. You're some criminal, and you're upset that the police randomly jumped back into action after years of inactivity. Your complaint is that they should have been more active more frequently??? You're trying to argue that it lulled you into a false sense of comfort. But in reality, what you're really arguing is that you woulda been caught even SOONER!

 

Point being...

If you buy Rivens to make your godly 3-Dispo weapons that everyone uses even godlier, then you have no idea what you're arguing for if you're mad that DE wasn't "being more frequent in their Dispo updates". That argument works AGAINST your intentions of Riven usage.

And I'm not sure anyone is realizing this.

[4thBro]

6 minutes ago, Xenonthetenno said:

Agree and i think police which do their job 'sometimes' is useless

No.

Useless is police that do their job never.

 

Police that do their job sometimes are sometimes useful.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

2 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

I don't even know WHERE I name-called, and you managed to let "it" detract from the entire rest of the post???

 

Yes, the infrequency is a problem. But this argues in the opposite direction most people are thinking.

Let's use the same kind of theoretical scenario. You're some criminal, and you're upset that the police randomly jumped back into action after years of inactivity. Your complaint is that they should have been more active more frequently??? You're trying to argue that it lulled you into a false sense of comfort. But in reality, what you're really arguing is that you woulda been caught even SOONER!

 

Point being...

If you buy Rivens to make your godly 3-Dispo weapons that everyone uses even godlier, then you have no idea what you're arguing for if you're mad that DE wasn't "being more frequent in their Dispo updates". That argument works AGAINST your intentions of Riven usage.

And I'm not sure anyone is realizing this.

The posi is for pointing out problems and solutions to said problems. Weather its for my solution or not wasn't the issue. Also the mobster comment was what i was refrancing.

Anyhow, you got a solution or improvment or are you just complaining at people who want to improve the game they like.

I referenced vivergate (if you dont know what that means then ill let you look it up) as a point that not all complaining is pointless. Nor am i saying riot agienst DE over the changes, their not bad or the problem. Change is what keep this game going.

[Xenonthetenno]

7 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

No.

Useless is police that do their job never.

 

Police that do their job sometimes are sometimes useful.

Nope. They are both useless since you can never tell they'll help you or not

Balancing should be frequent and regularly, not something that happens once in a year in all of a sudden randomly

[4thBro]

I am very much an advocate that complaining is how productivity happens.

 

But that's when that's the specific intention.

People complaining about a Disposition update are, quite strictly, salty that they spent plat on a Riven that lowered in strength. That's it. Period.

I don't like dismissiveness, but show me the contrary is true.

 

I could think of options towards my opinion of fixing Dispositions, sure. But frankly, the current system is fine if it's frequently updated (no less frequently than once every 3 months).

 

When designing SO MANY guns, consider what a company has to do. A gun has to be unique AND good. No weapon should ever be created as the "jobber" item. Everything should be created as an option for someone who may prefer that assortment of fire rate, fire sounds, appearance, crit stats, status stats, damage element types, reload speeds, etc etc etc etc ETC. There's a million combinations.

SURELY, some things are going to be stronger than others.

 

DE already tried to balance things on their initial creation. After that, WE are ALL the testers. The community, formed up of FAR MORE PEOPLE than those in the DE office, will inform DE of what guns are stronger than others, what's favored in the context of the game, and all sorts of things like that. That's what Disposition is for. It is the balance test results.

But there are various reasons as to why those results might alter over time. Maybe new content comes out where one gun shines above all others. You can't have old Disposition results stick in this scenario. Or, perhaps a gun is "super popular" because it's the MK1 Braton and every newbie has one. Eventually, people will stop using that hot garbage as it's replaced by literally anything. And thus, this is another case where Dispos need to be updated. The list of scenarios goes on and on.

 

And that's why Rivens for a gun with higher Dispositions acquire higher amounts of stats. To serve as a system that manually, and constantly, rebalances weaker guns to be up to par with the stronger guns.

With frequently-updated Dispositions, it would remain consistent that the actual WEAKEST guns gain access to the strongest Rivens.

 

And that is the true essence of Rivens.

 

So, in a case like this, no. I actually do not have a "suggestion" to put forth myself. Because I think the current system - providing you want a system at all that attempts to function for this purpose - is a pretty good design. It simply was not being enforced.

That being said, there are an infinite amount of ways to design a video game. And so, of course, there exists MANY great suggestions for improvement. So anyone who wants to present one of their own, go ahead. But this thread??? This thread is just people saying that they are upset "Dispos changed without warning".

Very plainly. Very simply. That.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

Yeah it got derailed quickly.

[4thBro]

6 minutes ago, Xenonthetenno said:

Nope. They are both useless since you can never tell they'll help you or not

Balancing should be frequent and regularly, not something that happens once in a year in all of a sudden randomly

Your logic is broken. Let's give the hard example.

 

You're being mugged in a back alley. In fact, you DID get mugged. But this guy's crazy. Robbing you of your belongings isn't enough. He's going to kill you.

SUDDENLY, the Batmobile - the likes of which having not been seen for 15 years; Batman being presumed dead; NOBODY EVER relying or counting on him showing up ever again - SMASHES through several dumpsters as it ROARS its way to you and the robber.

Batman LUNGES OUT from the convertible roof, tackles the shocked criminal in the same blurred movement, lets loose several thundering forearms into various critical points of the guy's body, and within a couple swift & unseen movements, all you know is that he finally pulls on a rope and the criminal is sent flying upward from some mechanism, tied up, and left dangling about 20 feet from the ground. Without looking at you, he casually tosses you your wallet and you barely catch it as it hits your chest.

"You dropped this."

He begins to swiftly stride back to his vehicle.

 

...

...

...

 

QUICK! Do you tell him he's useless because you couldn't rely on him for the past 15 years?!?