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Riven system


(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX
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A lot of people told me i should have posted this here so here we are.

The system has many fundamental flaws that could stand to be corrected. Also before im dismissed as a whining crybaby, I don't have any problems with the changes from the update. They just showed me the holes in this part of the boat.

Simply whining and complaining do not solve the problem nor help find a solution. So besides just pointing out issues ive seen ill also add solutions to said issues.

First the problems...

1st, riven mods do not make bad weapons good. Bad weapons like the base lato are bad because mods cannot save their low stats no matter how big the buff is.

2nd, basing a rivens stats on usage dose not work. Popular weapons will be popular with or without riven mods. And what happens when a bad weapon is made popular by its riven mod? It's use climbs then the rivens power begins to fall.

3ed, rivens do not respect player time or investment. Imagine getting a riven for a good weapon. Then Imagine getting a good roll for that riven. Now imagine watching as said riven slowly becomes weaker before your eyes over time hitting rock bottom at soma levels of disposition.

4th, the rolls we have are tied to the disposition? This is what annoys me personally as it is also tied into my 3ed point and my second.

5th, the infrequent updates. The system dose not shift around nearly enough.

Now for my solutions...

1st, make rivens effect the base stats of the weapon before mods. This makes it to where the statistics of a weak weapon no longer hold it back.

As is a weapon with 5 status and a 100% status boost will still only result in 10% status. Now say that weapon gets a 10% added to the base BEFORE MODS.

That means instead of 19% you'd get with the riven AND dual stats you would get 42% from the same equation. Instantly better and puts a LATO (not the vandal) into a useable position.

The stats for each weapon type would need to be ranged for the type of weapon it is. So say an AR(like the bratons and somas) riven would provide 10-20 damage, while a BR(like the sybaris is or latron) would get something closer to 40-80 damage. Or machien pistols, to semi shooters, and so on.

Think of it like rhino's buff to chroma buff in how it would work. Doing it This way could theoretically bring weapons like the furis on par or even better than primes or other popular weapons. Evening the playing field, and with the fluctuating stats nothing will be on top forever shifting what weapons can reach that powerful status.

2nd, give roll ranges tiers. Don't punish people for using weapins they like. Insted of a .50-1.5 system use a 3 tier system. Tier 1, over used weapons like the soma, a X1.0 multiplyer. Tier 2, used weapons, a X1.5 multiplyer. Tier 3, a X2.0 multiplyer.

Keeping weapons in one if these 3 categories means your not slowly watching your work fluctuate between good, ok and total worthlesness. Your rewarded for using less popular weapons (by them being on par with the more popular options) while not being punished for using your favorites. Thus also aliviating points 3 and 4 at the same time.

5th, update more often if nothing else. Leaving disposition alone for so long is partially the cause of most people's frustration with the changes. More frequency and less at the drop of a hat would help.

Rivens are arguably a very important system to a good number of players. It's also extremely flawed and dosent even do what it was originally meant to do.

 

PS Idk how to close the topic on general discussion if I need to, didn't know where to put it and put one there before here.

Edited by (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX
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This riven system has some serious issues. I mean, They are giving us Eidolons to kill, they are literally telling us to go shoot those creatures down with snipers by designing the game mode the way they have and then they are nerfing all snipers in the game because "snipers have been used too much". Duh! Who in their right mind has ever killed an Eidolon with a pistol or a machine gun? Your game mode makes us use snipers, so we use snipers. Snipers' usage goes up, and they get nerfed. That's not fair. If anything, at least don't include special game mode weapon usage when calculating riven disposition updates. Lanka didn't deserve this nerf. I don't even use Lanka anywhere except Eidolon hunts. Yet it gets nerfed, because Eidolon hunts are lucrative and people play that game mode a lot. But in generic missions, I have rarely seen anyone with a Lanka. Because it would take ages to shoot hundreds of enemies with Lanka.

What I'm trying to say is, please be a bit more sensitive and filter your statistics according to the purpose of usage instead of just raw numbers. Launch a fix for these riven changes please. Did tiberon deserve the nerf? Meh, it does get used a lot. So does Ignis. Basically my most used 2 weapons, but as the OP said, nerfing a good weapon's rivens and buffing a bad weapon's rivens won't make the bad weapon any more playable. It only hurts us veterans. The change has to be at a factor in the order of hundreds for that to happen. Because the good weapons in this game are literally hundreds of times better than the bad ones. I hope you keep that in mind when trying to make adjustments to the riven system.

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58 minutes ago, ArchonofDestruction said:

This riven system has some serious issues. I mean, They are giving us Eidolons to kill, they are literally telling us to go shoot those creatures down with snipers by designing the game mode the way they have and then they are nerfing all snipers in the game because "snipers have been used too much". Duh! Who in their right mind has ever killed an Eidolon with a pistol or a machine gun? Your game mode makes us use snipers, so we use snipers. Snipers' usage goes up, and they get nerfed. That's not fair. If anything, at least don't include special game mode weapon usage when calculating riven disposition updates. Lanka didn't deserve this nerf. I don't even use Lanka anywhere except Eidolon hunts. Yet it gets nerfed, because Eidolon hunts are lucrative and people play that game mode a lot. But in generic missions, I have rarely seen anyone with a Lanka. Because it would take ages to shoot hundreds of enemies with Lanka.

What I'm trying to say is, please be a bit more sensitive and filter your statistics according to the purpose of usage instead of just raw numbers. Launch a fix for these riven changes please. Did tiberon deserve the nerf? Meh, it does get used a lot. So does Ignis. Basically my most used 2 weapons, but as the OP said, nerfing a good weapon's rivens and buffing a bad weapon's rivens won't make the bad weapon any more playable. It only hurts us veterans. The change has to be at a factor in the order of hundreds for that to happen. Because the good weapons in this game are literally hundreds of times better than the bad ones. I hope you keep that in mind when trying to make adjustments to the riven system.

Speak for yourself, I've been using my Lanka before Eidolon hunting, and since then people have raised its usage just for one stupid mode causing nerfs to my riven. My riven is specifically more for utility, +fire rate, +multishot, -zoom. I actually enjoy bringing it to kill enemies in other game modes.

Edited by GSDAkatsuki
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Random stats on mods were removed from the game early on because they were bad for the overall design and bad for balance.
Regretably, design and balance are now second fiddle to feelgoods and cashgrabs: everything has to be bigger, flashier, and immediately monetized.

No matter what opinions and how well reasoned anyone may have about Riven mods, nothing can be done about them, because there's people who spent thousands of plat to buy their perfectly rolled ones.

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5 hours ago, Naqel said:

because there's people who spent thousands of plat to buy their perfectly rolled ones.

As demonstrated, they don't care about that. Despite the thousands of Plat changing hands, there will be a dispo update.

Rivens exist to be above and beyond what is planned for in the game. If people really want this type of stuff in Rivens, they will have to be included in the general game's balance and then all the Plat in the world will have been traded for naught.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am beginning to notice this, as I am beginning to get a few rivens myself. I just received a riven for the Sydon polearm, which obviously has two variants - the base model and the Steel Meridian model, the Vaykor Sydon. My issue here is while I understand the Vaykor Sydon having a two out of five disposition, the base weapon also has a two out of five. And to push this flaw even further, the Plague Kripath polearm zaws, have a THREE out of five disposition. Plague Kripath polearms are crazy strong, and they have a better disposition than both the Vaykor and base Sydon? Someone at DE really needs to reconsider this balance and come up with something a bit more fair, despite the difficulty in doing so. The base model clearly needs a buff putting it over the Vaykor and, honestly if the Plague Kripath is going to keep a three of five rating, than the Vaykor needs a buff as well.

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On 2018-11-09 at 7:48 AM, ArchonofDestruction said:

This riven system has some serious issues. I mean, They are giving us Eidolons to kill, they are literally telling us to go shoot those creatures down with snipers by designing the game mode the way they have and then they are nerfing all snipers in the game because "snipers have been used too much". Duh! Who in their right mind has ever killed an Eidolon with a pistol or a machine gun? Your game mode makes us use snipers, so we use snipers. Snipers' usage goes up, and they get nerfed. That's not fair. If anything, at least don't include special game mode weapon usage when calculating riven disposition updates. Lanka didn't deserve this nerf. I don't even use Lanka anywhere except Eidolon hunts. Yet it gets nerfed, because Eidolon hunts are lucrative and people play that game mode a lot. But in generic missions, I have rarely seen anyone with a Lanka. Because it would take ages to shoot hundreds of enemies with Lanka.

So much this. This creating a specific niche meta for snipers and then nerfing them across the board when they remain largely inadequate as general purpose weapons shows how wrong adopting the usage stat system blindly is. I feared this sort of thing would happen, and of course it did. Please just actually think things through a little DE.

I feel like the huge hit to the plasmor is also partly due to how everyone is using it in arbitrations just because it's so good at solving the problem of the glitchy mess that are the floaty little drones that make enemies immune to damage and all our abilities.

That and also the Panthera or Viper of all weapons getting a disposition nerf. This shows that the usage stats aren't even being used properly, the disposition was adjusted as if rivens didn't exist and weren't the only thing that didn't make these weapons used more than never. Disposition should only be reduced if a weapon's usage is too high, not because it's hardly ever used but has the disposition that was given to weapons that were never used. It's so obvious, it's such a shocking and worrying failure from DE's part to see this.

 

On 2018-11-09 at 5:51 PM, peterc3 said:

As demonstrated, they don't care about that. Despite the thousands of Plat changing hands, there will be a dispo update.

Rivens exist to be above and beyond what is planned for in the game. If people really want this type of stuff in Rivens, they will have to be included in the general game's balance and then all the Plat in the world will have been traded for naught.

Just go away lol. As usual you have nothing of any substance whatsoever to contribute to the discussion.

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You hit the nail on the frickin head, @(PS4)XxDrakenguardxX.

As an additional refinement, Dispositions should be fully weapon specific (for example, to stop Nikana getting screwed over by Nikana Prime, or Tiberon Prime benifiting from Tiberon).

This can be implemented as multipliers, similar to RoF mods on bows. Example:

Tiberon: 1x Riven stats

Tiberon Prime: 0.4x Riven stats (example only).

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IF Disposition is based on Popularity.

Then I think Different Consoles/Platforms, should have different Dispositions.

Consider the new Switch platform,

all those brand new players are getting dispositions that are determined by popularity trends and fads that they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Old meta usages that have since been patched out of relevance, live events they never had access to, etc.

 

Really they should all start out as neutral, let the Switch players figure things out for themselves which weapons are popular or not.

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To start, I think the OP's post is brilliant, and I agree very much with both the current problems to Riven mods and the fixes proposed to them. Rivens need to change base stats on older weapons to be any good, they should update more dynamically, and they need tighter control over their stats so that most rolls aren't a complete waste of Kuva. With those issues fixed, Rivens could likely get a little closer towards their intended goal of providing wackier stat customization options.

With that said, though, I feel that much of the balancing to apply to Rivens ends up being a very roundabout way of balancing weapons themselves: if the problem with Riven mods on some weapons is that those weapons' base stats are too low, why not just directly buff those weapons? You could easily break this down even further: as it stands, almost every weapon has a pretty consistently defined set of "ideal" stats they'd want on a Riven mod, and those stats tend to be the same across every weapon (i.e. damage, multishot, etc.), and as long as those stats can be rolled, those will be the only stats players want on a Riven. Add in the fact that most weapons tend to skew almost exclusively towards crit or status, and the end result is that Rivens don't really create diversity, so much as power up weapons even more. In this respect, I think the Riven Mod system is fundamentally broken, and whichever goal it claimed to achieve with respect to weapon balancing (and, let's be real, it was never a balance tool so much as a Platinum printing machine) could be applied far more effectively by directly balancing weapons as needed.

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I'll admit as much as id love them to just buff everything there has to be some progression and reason to chase better guns. A mk1-furis and regular furis are early game weapons not meant to be as good as the akstiletto or its prime. If everything played the same then you have no reason to play other stuff.

 

Rivens we're intended to make bad/meh/gimmicky weapons on par with the good stuff. Something to allow you to use those weaker weapons like the better ones. Better guns don't need rivens to be good, but they dang sure help most times.

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On 2018-11-09 at 4:48 AM, ArchonofDestruction said:

This riven system has some serious issues. I mean, They are giving us Eidolons to kill, they are literally telling us to go shoot those creatures down with snipers by designing the game mode the way they have and then they are nerfing all snipers in the game because "snipers have been used too much". Duh! Who in their right mind has ever killed an Eidolon with a pistol or a machine gun? Your game mode makes us use snipers, so we use snipers. Snipers' usage goes up, and they get nerfed. That's not fair. If anything, at least don't include special game mode weapon usage when calculating riven disposition updates. Lanka didn't deserve this nerf. I don't even use Lanka anywhere except Eidolon hunts. Yet it gets nerfed, because Eidolon hunts are lucrative and people play that game mode a lot. But in generic missions, I have rarely seen anyone with a Lanka. Because it would take ages to shoot hundreds of enemies with Lanka.

What I'm trying to say is, please be a bit more sensitive and filter your statistics according to the purpose of usage instead of just raw numbers. Launch a fix for these riven changes please. Did tiberon deserve the nerf? Meh, it does get used a lot. So does Ignis. Basically my most used 2 weapons, but as the OP said, nerfing a good weapon's rivens and buffing a bad weapon's rivens won't make the bad weapon any more playable. It only hurts us veterans. The change has to be at a factor in the order of hundreds for that to happen. Because the good weapons in this game are literally hundreds of times better than the bad ones. I hope you keep that in mind when trying to make adjustments to the riven system.

It is for this reason that I believe that developers do not play the game they develop.

They are changes made for lack of competence and knowledge of the game itself.

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