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Why don't Rivens track Disposition?


ReshyShira
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When a Riven drops, why don't they track their disposition?  It feels really unfair to have a riven's stats retroactively changed on you despite all the kuva or plat you might have invested into it.  I don't mind riven disposition being changed, but existing rivens should remain the same.

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I used to feel the same, but I gotta say... stopping to think about it really brings it to light why that'd be unreasonable. The whole point of Rivens is to keep lesser-used weapons viable, and if old rivens kept their stats, all you'd be doing is keeping incredibly strong weapons incredibly strong, instead of giving other ones a chance to shine. I was further mollified, I'll admit, by the decision to not change any riven by more than one level, so it's not like you're at risk of a strength-5 dropping to just 1 or 2.

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That would be madness, it would lead to the same exlusive-stuff-trading that primed chamber and other no more availible mods created. DE informed us at rivne release that disposition WILL change, it's your fault if you invest into something that is bound to get nerfed.

 

As in any market, being an experienced player and knowing what will probably get nerfed/buffed can net you profit, don't trade if you lack experience.

Edited by Genoscythe
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I will simply quote @4thBro from another thread on the Same Topic:

Not only is "changing only future Rivens according to new Dispo" completely contrary of the point of the system in the first place, but it would ALSO obliterate the Riven market as a lot of mods would become "legacy" and worth more plat than you can possibly fathom.

Now, mine:

Information about Riven dispo not being set in stone was available from the get go (meaning it Will Be Updated), people not doing any research regarding rivens and getting dissapointed afterwards - that is unfair to common sense.

Edited by PurrrningBoop
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3 minutes ago, XRosenkreuz said:

I used to feel the same, but I gotta say... stopping to think about it really brings it to light why that'd be unreasonable. The whole point of Rivens is to keep lesser-used weapons viable, and if old rivens kept their stats, all you'd be doing is keeping incredibly strong weapons incredibly strong, instead of giving other ones a chance to shine. I was further mollified, I'll admit, by the decision to not change any riven by more than one level, so it's not like you're at risk of a strength-5 dropping to just 1 or 2.

I dunno, which is worse:  To reward players who invested time and kuva back when the disposition was really high with a riven that remains god tier to this day, or do you punish players who invested time and kuva back when the disposition was really high with a riven that's pretty meh these days?

 

Personally, I'd err on the side on "make players feel like their investment matters".

 

2 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

That would be madness, it would lead to the same exlusive-stuff-trading that primed chamber and other no more availible mods created. DE informed us at rivne release that disposition WILL change, it's your fault if you invest into something that is bound to get nerfed.

 

As in any market, being an experienced player and knowing what will probably get nerfed/buffed can net you profit, don't trade if you lack experience.

Giving your customers buyer's remorse, or making them feel that their time investment isn't respected by the company who ultimately dictates how good a riven is is uh... just as bad?

Edited by ReshyShira
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If existing Rivens remained unchanged then we'd have far bigger issues than the sole issue we currently have: bruised egos.

 

If people are complaining about not being able to get their useless sentinel Rivens they sure as Hek would complain about not being able to get pre-nerf Rivens.

If these Rivens were tradeable then people would complain about players charging tens of thousands of plat for them and act like it was DE's fault that people are paying that.

Even if they coulden't be traded without switching to the new disposition then we'd still have the issue of these grandfathered in Rivens if their dispositions continued to drop.

And if dispositions continue to change based on usage then it would literally mean nothing if people could keep pre-nerf ones. They'd continue using their "good" Rivens and drive the disposition lower and lower.

Edited by trst
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à l’instant, PurrrningBoop a dit :

I will simply quote @4thBro from another thread on the Same Topic:

Not only is "changing only future Rivens according to new Dispo" completely contrary of the point of the system in the first place, but it would ALSO obliterate the Riven market as a lot of mods would become "legacy" and worth more plat than you can possibly fathom.

Now, mine:

Information about Riven dispo not being set in stone was available from the get go, people not getting informed and getting dissapointed afterwards - that is unfair.

I agree to that. Imagine if that were a thing and i kept my original Pyrana riven with 450% damage and 360% crit chance. Just imagine what dropping such bombs would do to the market. 

Let alone for even older ones when disposition wasn't a thing, for guns like Dread, Tonkor and other meta stuff. Just imagone the carnage. 

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il y a 3 minutes, ReshyShira a dit :

Giving your customers buyer's remorse, or making them feel that their time investment isn't respected by the company who ultimately dictates how good a riven is is uh... just as bad?

Uh, as I said, it was known since riven release that dispo WILL WILL WILL change depending on weapon popularity and balancing. What were you expecting? You're getting a buyers remorse because you knew that the item you spent plat on would get hammered?

Owner of a sicarus DMG/Multi/element, many very strong tiberon, buzlok, etc. etc. etc. Rivens here, did you see the sicarus' riven changes? Lost about 20k DPS. It was to be expected.

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6 minutes ago, trst said:

If existing Rivens remained unchanged then we'd have far bigger issues than the sole issue we currently have: bruised egos.

 

If people are complaining about not being able to get their useless sentinel Rivens they sure as Hek would complain about not being able to get pre-nerf Rivens.

If these Rivens were tradeable then people would complain about players charging tens of thousands of plat for them and act like it was DE's fault that people are paying that.

Even if they coulden't be traded without switching to the new disposition then we'd still have the issue of these grandfathered in Rivens if their dispositions continued to drop.

And if dispositions continue to change based on usage then it would literally mean nothing if people could keep pre-nerf ones. They'd continue using their "good" Rivens and drive the disposition lower and lower.

Bruised Egos can lead to players quitting, or at least not investing as heavily into rivens, which can impact DE's platinum sales. 

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Just now, ReshyShira said:

I dunno, which is worse:  To reward players who invested time and kuva back when the disposition was really high with a riven that remains god tier to this day, or do you punish players who invested time and kuva back when the disposition was really high with a riven that's pretty meh these days?

 

Personally, I'd err on the side on "make players feel like their investment matters".

That's fine, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Personally, I see it being much better going down the path that causes less vitriol in the community, and frankly, that happens to be the one where they do this. Hell, we still get people to this day complaining about not being able to get Excal/Lato/Skana Prime, and we've known for five years that's never going to happen. Imagine how angry people would get seeing older players running around with the same gun they're using, doing several factors higher damage because they happened to be lucky enough to get a riven when its disposition was 5, but because so many people got a riven for it then, the disposition's dropped to a 2 and now newer players have no chance of keeping up.

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Just now, XRosenkreuz said:

That's fine, and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Personally, I see it being much better going down the path that causes less vitriol in the community, and frankly, that happens to be the one where they do this. Hell, we still get people to this day complaining about not being able to get Excal/Lato/Skana Prime, and we've known for five years that's never going to happen. Imagine how angry people would get seeing older players running around with the same gun they're using, doing several factors higher damage because they happened to be lucky enough to get a riven when its disposition was 5, but because so many people got a riven for it then, the disposition's dropped to a 2 and now newer players have no chance of keeping up.

Unequal sharing of blessings, or an equal sharing of miseries.  I'd rather err on the side of an unequal sharing of blessings, so that older players feel like their time is being respected.  Because, right now, I feel like my investment into my current riven collection is now completely up in the air.  Will these be another balance a month from now that'll further reduce the strength of my rivens? 

 

2 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

Uh, as I said, it was known since riven release that dispo WILL WILL WILL change depending on weapon popularity and balancing. What were you expecting? You're getting a buyers remorse because you knew that the item you spent plat on would get hammered?

Owner of a sicarus DMG/Multi/element, many very strong tiberon, buzlok, etc. etc. etc. Rivens here, did you see the sicarus' riven changes? Lost about 20k DPS. It was to be expected.

I actually have pretty much all of the meta rivens, and this change has completely killed my desire to get any more rivens or collect more Kuva.

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1 minute ago, ReshyShira said:

Bruised Egos can lead to players quitting, or at least not investing as heavily into rivens, which can impact DE's platinum sales. 

Their egos are bruised by their own doing. Dynamic dispositions was an intended feature from day one.

Yes DE did a horrible job at maintaining that but (a lot of) players had been asking about it since DE stopped changing them. They even acknowledged that they messed up and were getting back to adjusting them all while not once saying that they wouldn't go back to them.

None of this was a surprise, anyone who was surprised have only themselves to blame.

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Welp as it has been discussed in Threads like this multiple times: Legacy rivens can easily be solved by Changing the dispo when Rolling AND Trading. By that the market isnt a problem anymore.

A friend of Mine got a riven for the Sicarus, One of his favorite weapons. To get Perfect Stats, he put about 100 Rolls in it, all farmed without Booster so it took him Way over month to get. This Time ans achievement is getting devalued by this Change. It wasnt a Major Change, But Boy makes it fear me for the future.  Just leave the riven People use alone

Edited by Eisdschungel
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il y a 2 minutes, ReshyShira a dit :

I actually have pretty much all of the meta rivens, and this change has completely killed my desire to get any more rivens or collect more Kuva. 

"Completely Killed"? There was no bigger change than one point of dispo to any of the changed rivens. All weapons that were strong with a riven before are still strong, just not as madly overpowered as they were before. Yes, maybe you will need one more salvo with some guns to finish off a level 150 gunner in the simulacrum, but as you can oneshot eidolon synthulas with a lanka without riven and only rarely fight level 150 gunners on fortuna, the changes mostly hit my pride and not my actual effectivity in-game.

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Just now, Eisdschungel said:

Welp as it has been discussed in Threads like this multiple times: Legacy rivens can easily be solved by Changing the dispo when Rolling AND Trading. By that the market isnt a problem anymore.

A friend of Mine got a riven fir the Sicarus, One of his favorite weapons. To get Perfect Stats, he put about 100 Rolls in it, all farmed without Booster so it took him Way over month to get. This Time ans achievement is getting devalued by this Change. It wasnt a Major Change, But Boy makes it fear me for the future.  Just leave the riven People use alone

Yes and no. 

The entire market ceiling dropped down. So after it settles prices will be back up in no time. believe me, that's how humans work.

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14 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Bruised Egos can lead to players quitting, or at least not investing as heavily into rivens, which can impact DE's platinum sales. 

People say this with every change DE make, the reality is, it doesn't. 

Leave, stay, no one cares if you like the changes or not, it's just the vocal minority and it won't affect the game or DE one jot. 

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If older rivens did not retroactively change stats, then you create a larger issue of people selling "Pre-nerf" Riven mods for even more than they usually go for due to an exclusive stat threshold they would possess. The current system is not perfect and I would prefer if disposition was removed, but changing weapons by +/-0.2 is quite fine.

Edited by Voltage
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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Airwolfen:

Yes and no. 

The entire market ceiling dropped down. So after it settles prices will be back up in no time. believe me, that's how humans work.

Which is unaffected by if his Sicarus stays the same, since Trading would make it the same as any other Sicarus riven. So while true, i dont see it as valid Argument against this idea

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1 minute ago, Eisdschungel said:

Which is unaffected by if his Sicarus stays the same, since Trading would make it the same as any other Sicarus riven. So while true, i dont see it as valid Argument against this idea

well as for the Idea of older rivens not changing that is just an overall bad idea. But I guess others have already made that point well enough in this thread.

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I wasted a lot of time and effort to get that arca plasmor one so i'm never touching rivens again. that nerf reminds me a lot of why i quit playing way back in 2014. I just can't invest time or even care about them or an aspect of a game that'll disregard the time and money i spent and leave me feeling cheated... again.  I had only used that gun on specific warframes too not all of them. I don't know why in terms of all gaming people never look at the time cost of our lives being alive and what nerfs and bad choices do to steal what we at the time thought was time well spent. 

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15 minutes ago, Voltage said:

If older rivens did not retroactively change stats, then you create a larger issue of people selling "Pre-nerf" Riven mods for even more than they usually go for due to an exclusive stat threshold they would possess. The current system is not perfect and I would prefer it disposition was removed, but changing weapons by +/-0.2 is quite fine.

Who does this hurt?  Is anyone being hurt because Primed Chamber sells for an absurd amount?  No.

20 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

"Completely Killed"? There was no bigger change than one point of dispo to any of the changed rivens. All weapons that were strong with a riven before are still strong, just not as madly overpowered as they were before. Yes, maybe you will need one more salvo with some guns to finish off a level 150 gunner in the simulacrum, but as you can oneshot eidolon synthulas with a lanka without riven and only rarely fight level 150 gunners on fortuna, the changes mostly hit my pride and not my actual effectivity in-game.

That's assuming there's not more changes planned, which they hinted may very well come.  What's the point in investing into rivens that may, completely at the whim of the developers, depreciate significantly in-value?

25 minutes ago, trst said:

Their egos are bruised by their own doing. Dynamic dispositions was an intended feature from day one.

Yes DE did a horrible job at maintaining that but (a lot of) players had been asking about it since DE stopped changing them. They even acknowledged that they messed up and were getting back to adjusting them all while not once saying that they wouldn't go back to them.

None of this was a surprise, anyone who was surprised have only themselves to blame.

How it works in practice is not necessarily the same as how it was intended to work.  Rivens were a bad idea from the start, but they're out in the wild now and there's no putting the genie back into the bottle.  However, putting rivens into constant flux, with how much investment it takes to roll one into something good, is incredibly painful and makes people who actually took the time to make them good feel like the developers don't respect them.

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il y a 9 minutes, ReshyShira a dit :

That's assuming there's not more changes planned, which they hinted may very well come.  What's the point in investing into rivens that may, completely at the whim of the developers, depreciate significantly in-value? 

I think you are looking at the matter here a bit one-sided. Did you ever invest into cheap rivens that you knew would be buffed? Or unpopular rivens that are going to become popular? The amount of plat you can make with clever investments is ridiculous. I have clanmates with well over 100k plat, mostly made from riven trading and rolling.

 

More changes will come, but only after DE has further studied the new weapon use statistics of all weapons, The fortuna launch is great opportinity to bring balance to the dispositions due to the high player count.

Edited by Genoscythe
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