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Twin Vipers Better And Cheaper Than Afuris?


StuffedTurkey007
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Twin Vipers cost 2 Morphics to craft, while Afuris requires 8 neurodes. They have similar stats in some ways, and different stats in others. I did the math to decide which was better.

 

Twin Vipers

16 dmg

25 fire rate

28 clip size

2 second reload

 

Afuris

14 dmg

20 fire rate

70 clip size

2.8 second reload

 

Twin Vipers dps while firing: 16x25 = 400

Twin Vipers dmg per clip: 16x28 = 448

Time to empty clip - 1.12 seconds

Time to reload clip - 2 seconds

Dmg in 3.12 seconds = 448.

 

Afuris dps while firing: 14x20 = 280

Afuris dmg per clip: 14x70 = 980

Time to empty clip: 3.5 seconds

Time to reload clip - 2.8 seconds

Dmg in 6.3 seconds = 980

 

Compare to Twin Vipers dmg in ~6.3 seconds: 448x2 = 896

Twin Vipers also have 3x the crit chance, increasing dps by 5% without crit mods.

896x1.05 = 940.8

 

There you have it. Twin Vipers has almost double the burst damage and more ammo efficiency, all in exchange for less than a 5% decrease in sustained dps. If you potato and forma, you can even give them a crit build (although Target Cracker is underpowered). This makes them clearly superior to Afuris.

But wait, there's more! I asked on the chatroom which had more recoil. Multiple people replied Afuris has much more recoil than Twin Vipers. This makes Afuris more unsuitable at long range, along with all the drawbacks of reduced accuracy.

 

So why the hek does it cost 8 neurodes for Afuris and only 2 morphics for Twin Vipers? Afuris is so bad for its cost it's laughable. Based on the data above it's basically a worse burst, worse accuracy, worse ammo efficiency Twin Viper. The cost should be the other way around, or Afuris should get some love with a buff.

 

I like the different styles of weapons - one has a faster firing rate, smaller clip size and faster reload. The theme of the Twin Vipers is unique, and should stay that way. The best way to buff Afuris while keeping its playstyle different from Twin Vipers is to buff its damage per bullet - in fact, this way its playstyle will be the exact same as it is now - but it won't be just an overpriced, weak Twin Viper. Given that Afuris is far more expensive than Twin Vipers and has (allegedly) terrible recoil, it would be fair to give it the same damage per bullet as Twin Vipers.

 

Also, Afuris has double firing speed of Furis but Twin Vipers have less than double firing speed of Viper. After comparing Furis to Viper, Furis is one of the most underpowered weapons in the game and really needs the buff too.

 

Random sidenote: Does it bother anyone else that each Viper fires more slowly when you're dual-wielding them than when using a single Viper? The description says "a VIPER in each hand" so I presume it's not modded to fire more slowly; and it's an automatic weapon, so the firing speed should be constant no matter how many hands you hold it with.

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The Twin Vipers are for stacking crit and firing rate so you can pull them out out and take a big smelly critical hit filled DUMP on one or two nasty enemies that you need dead right now. If you try to use Twin Vipers as your regular weapon in a mission where you're actually pushing the difficulty of your mods and frames you will spend the entire time reloading, and because of that firing rate you will overkill enemies and waste ammo. 

 

Afuris is for stacking mag size, puncture, and regular damage so you can gun down lots and lots of enemies at short-medium with controlled amounts.

 

 

 

We have no idea what weapons are over or under powered until they do the damage type revamp. Right now the issue you're seeing has more to do with the properties of bullet damage than it does the weapons, but after the update bullet could have all new properties that make it fine, they could go back and tweak the damage numbers on this and many other weapons in the damage type patch, or laser/poison/serrated blade/physics impact could change to not be so dramatically better than bullet and bring those in line.

Edited by VKhaun
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I really prefer the Afuris, because of the larger clip wich also grants less reload animations while in combat.

Also a more accurate way of distributing the dmg to more foes.

All in all, I liked the Afuris more than the twin vipers and thus I disagree with that weapon needing a buff.

 

Here's how it works: The Twin Vipers have more DPS in about the first .1 - 1.6 seconds, and the Afuris has more DPS in the 1.7 - 4 seconds, and after that they're pretty even, so that part really depends on your playstyle.

 

I doubt all 3 people on the chatroom were lying to me - is Afuris really a more accurate weapon?

 

The Twin Vipers are for stacking crit and firing rate so you can pull them out out and take a big smelly critical hit filled DUMP on one or two nasty enemies that you need dead right now. If you try to use Twin Vipers as your regular weapon in a mission where you're actually pushing the difficulty of your mods and frames you will spend the entire time reloading, and because of that firing rate you will overkill enemies and waste ammo. 

 

Afuris is for stacking mag size, puncture, and regular damage so you can gun down lots and lots of enemies at short-medium with controlled amounts.

 

 

 

We have no idea what weapons are over or under powered until they do the damage type revamp. Right now the issue you're seeing has more to do with the properties of bullet damage than it does the weapons, but after the update bullet could have all new properties that make it fine, they could go back and tweak the damage numbers on this and many other weapons in the damage type patch, or laser/poison/serrated blade/physics impact could change to not be so dramatically better than bullet and bring those in line.

Actually building fire rate on a weapon that spends 2/3 of its time reloading is less efficient than building magazine size, reload speed and damage, assuming you're using more than just one clip in the given fight. Think about it this way - if you have 1 second to empty a clip and 2 seconds to reload, would you rather cut the 1 second in half or the 2? You'd rather cut the 2 in half, unless the insane burst you already have isn't enough. So, yes, if you build fire rate on Twin Vipers that would explain why you'd spend the entire game reloading.

 

Stacking magazine size on Afuris is actually worse than doing the same thing on Twin Vipers, unless you plan to not reload even once until the fight is over. Same idea here - if Afuris takes more time to unload a clip than to reload one, increasing firing speed will increase your total DPS more than increasing magazine size/reload speed. Of course, it all depends on playstyle, so if you build magazine size and can go a skirmish without reloading, that's fine; but, the sustained DPS is better when you multiplicatively decrease whichever takes longer: unloading rounds or reloading them.

 

"Right now the issue you're seeing has more to do with the properties of bullet damage than it does the weapons." I have no idea what I said that made you think that. Twin Vipers and Afuris both use the same damage type, and when the damage revamp comes, the changes to bullet damage will affect them equally since they both use bullet damage.

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Here's how it works: The Twin Vipers have more DPS in about the first .1 - 1.6 seconds, and the Afuris has more DPS in the 1.7 - 4 seconds, and after that they're pretty even, so that part really depends on your playstyle.

 

I doubt all 3 people on the chatroom were lying to me - is Afuris really a more accurate weapon?

Sorry, I've ment accurate in terms of controlled ammo usage.

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Actually building fire rate on a weapon that spends 2/3 of its time reloading is less efficient than building magazine size, reload speed and damage, assuming you're using more than just one clip in the given fight. Think about it this way - if you have 1 second to empty a clip and 2 seconds to reload, would you rather cut the 1 second in half or the 2? You'd rather cut the 2 in half, unless the insane burst you already have isn't enough. So, yes, if you build fire rate on Twin Vipers that would explain why you'd spend the entire game reloading.

 

Stacking magazine size on Afuris is actually worse than doing the same thing on Twin Vipers, unless you plan to not reload even once until the fight is over. Same idea here - if Afuris takes more time to unload a clip than to reload one, increasing firing speed will increase your total DPS more than increasing magazine size/reload speed. Of course, it all depends on playstyle, so if you build magazine size and can go a skirmish without reloading, that's fine; but, the sustained DPS is better when you multiplicatively decrease whichever takes longer: unloading rounds or reloading them.

 

ACTUALLY ACTUALLY there is no point doing damage dummy tests for max DPS. If you're not pushing your difficulty just use whatever you like the look and sound of. If you ARE pushing your difficulty then you need to have a plan that involves the action side of the game. Standing in the wide open reloading with mobs trying to kill you and just reloading and shooting is not that plan... that's barely even a plan for farming Kappa...  

 

If you begin to think about when and how you're reloading vs different enemy groups and paired with different primaries/melee weapons this question just answers itself. The Twin Vipers do not outclass the Afuris when you want magazine size and sustained attacks, which sometimes you will want when pushing your difficulty. The only reason they're better at everything right now is the issue with the bullet damage type.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I have no idea what I said that made you think that. Twin Vipers and Afuris both use the same damage type, and when the damage revamp comes, the changes to bullet damage will affect them equally since they both use bullet damage.

Critical hits shift the ratio of bullet vs elemental damage because the elemental damage number is based on the unmodified original damage number, not the amount you actually deal through resistances.

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AFuris is a sustained DPS weapon, and great for CC.

 

Twin Vipers is Burst DPS, and a reloading tutorial if there are signifigant number of enemies.

 

 

also, Vipers MUST be fired in very short bursts if you expect to hit anything accurately even at close range. AFuris can just unload like a space ninja drive-by. 

and a awesome sounding drive-by, it is. those things sound like a beast.

(while Vipers still sound like a wet noodle :[)

 

ergo, both weapons are fine, people that choose to use each don'e really feel like they're missing out on the advantages of the other.

 

 

 

Actually building fire rate on a weapon that spends 2/3 of its time reloading is less efficient than building magazine size

all i hear is 'pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt' over your bunch of words about efficiency for Vipers. 

seriously, Vipers + Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent == a jolly good time. i couldn't care less if it's 'more effective' to increase my magazine size, because personally i'd rather improve the feature traits of the weapon than try to combat the negative traits of it. just as on a sniper rifle i'd rather have more damage than more magazine size. for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

Lol Furis Prime. Next thing you know they'll make a Skana Prime.
 
Oh wait.

oh god, my sides. 

Edited by taiiat
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Actually, afuris has less recoil and saves a lot of accuracy in 12-18 ammo bursts, while you have to keep it 6-9 on vipers.

 

all i hear is 'pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt' over your bunch of words about efficiency for Vipers. 

seriously, Vipers + Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent == a jolly good time. i couldn't care less if it's 'more effective' to increase my magazine size, because personally i'd rather improve the feature traits of the weapon than try to combat the negative traits of it. just as on a sniper rifle i'd rather have more damage than more magazine size. for obvious reasons.

 

But stunning speed + Gunslinger will give you considerably more of sustained DPS than Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent.

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Also, I think that every piece of classic tenno weapon MUST be  obsolete. Even more, I'd like to see some frames, reverse engineered by Grineer/Corpus, which will overthrow classic ones. Tenno is not the prevailing power, it's struggling for their lives bunch of mooks from freezers. The only reason why they are not wiped out yet — war between Grineer and Corpus.

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Actually, afuris has less recoil and saves a lot of accuracy in 12-18 ammo bursts, while you have to keep it 6-9 on vipers.

 

But stunning speed + Gunslinger will give you considerably more of sustained DPS than Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent.

but i can shoot faster with Gunsligher + Lethal Torrent.

 

The only reason why they are not wiped out yet — war between Grineer and Corpus.

Tenno are also apparently equal in power to about 500 infantry of another faction.

 

it sounds fair to me. in our favor. lol.

Edited by taiiat
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I got the Afuris to 30 and sold it like lucky crickets in feudal Japan. I hated the things, the drop in accuracy is staggering. My Vipers on the other hand...They will never leave my inventory, I use Gremlins, AkBolto, and Acrid...But I Love my Vipers more than any other weapon in the game as of current <3

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The Afuris is basically a street sweeper.  With the help of ammo mutation, you can fire it a few times and then clean the floor right up of all those ammo drops. Oh, you thought I meant it sweeps enemies?  Hah.  That would be a good joke.

 

So long as you don't fight past Saturn, it's a great weapon.

You might even be able to bring it all the way up to Pluto now that you have access to hundreds of ammo boxes.  It'll just be overshadowed by everything else.

(But, hey, at least it's not the Grakata!)

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ACTUALLY ACTUALLY there is no point doing damage dummy tests for max DPS. If you're not pushing your difficulty just use whatever you like the look and sound of. If you ARE pushing your difficulty then you need to have a plan that involves the action side of the game. Standing in the wide open reloading with mobs trying to kill you and just reloading and shooting is not that plan... that's barely even a plan for farming Kappa...  

 

If you begin to think about when and how you're reloading vs different enemy groups and paired with different primaries/melee weapons this question just answers itself. The Twin Vipers do not outclass the Afuris when you want magazine size and sustained attacks, which sometimes you will want when pushing your difficulty. The only reason they're better at everything right now is the issue with the bullet damage type.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Critical hits shift the ratio of bullet vs elemental damage because the elemental damage number is based on the unmodified original damage number, not the amount you actually deal through resistances.

 

I agree with you that dummy damage tests cannot encompass the whole of a combat situation. There are many things to take into account - as for reloading, the fact that the Vipers and Afuris have about the same sustained DPS but with the Vipers spending more time reloading is actually an advantage for them. Like you said, you don't want to stand in the open reloading. With the Vipers you spend 2/3 of your time crouching behind cover not taking damage and 1/3 of the time firing, while still having the same DPS as Afuris that spends more than half of its time firing to reach maximum DPS. DPS isn't everything, and the increased ability to frequently take cover with Vipers is one of those more subjective advantages.

 

The Afuris can CC enemies for almost 3x as long as Vipers, which is one of their advantages - though when the clip runs dry, they have a longer recovery time before they can CC again. If you want CC, Vipers with Ice Storm + Stunning Speed can stunlock most enemies indefinitely.

 

I would put Lethal Torrent on Vipers because the multishot + firing speed combination does insane damage, but I personally wouldn't like Gunslinger because I like the CC nightmare mods. You don't really need reload speed on some mission modes, but on survival, defense and mobile defense it is very helpful on Vipers - not to mention since it spends 2/3 of its time reloading, you can beat any mission more quickly even if you don't need the DPS, which is nice for farming.

 

As for crits and elemental damage, I read this on the wiki, so it may or may not be true but at least it's something:

 

"When an attack critically hits, the normal type damage of that attack and all armor piercing and elemental damage types derived from that hit are multiplied by a critical multiplier."

 

This would mean that, for instance, both the bullet damage and armor piercing damage would be multiplied by 2. If they are multiplied by the same amount, they still have the same ratio. Remember that resistances are division and not subtraction, so: let's say bullet damage does 1/4 of its original because of enemy armor, and AP does the full amount. The example critical hit will raise the bullet damage to 1/2, and double the AP damage. The ratio is still 1:4

 

Have you done testing that conflicts with the data on the wiki?

 

AFuris is a sustained DPS weapon, and great for CC.

 

Twin Vipers is Burst DPS, and a reloading tutorial if there are signifigant number of enemies.

 

 

also, Vipers MUST be fired in very short bursts if you expect to hit anything accurately even at close range. AFuris can just unload like a space ninja drive-by. 

and a awesome sounding drive-by, it is. those things sound like a beast.

(while Vipers still sound like a wet noodle :[)

 

ergo, both weapons are fine, people that choose to use each don'e really feel like they're missing out on the advantages of the other.

 

 

 

all i hear is 'pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt' over your bunch of words about efficiency for Vipers. 

seriously, Vipers + Gunslinger + Lethal Torrent == a jolly good time. i couldn't care less if it's 'more effective' to increase my magazine size, because personally i'd rather improve the feature traits of the weapon than try to combat the negative traits of it. just as on a sniper rifle i'd rather have more damage than more magazine size. for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

oh god, my sides. 

 

I have no problem with anyone's build if it's for a jolly good time :D

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This would mean that, for instance, both the bullet damage and armor piercing damage would be multiplied by 2. If they are multiplied by the same amount, they still have the same ratio. Remember that resistances are division and not subtraction, so: let's say bullet damage does 1/4 of its original because of enemy armor, and AP does the full amount. The example critical hit will raise the bullet damage to 1/2, and double the AP damage. The ratio is still 1:4

 

Yes ratio may have been the wrong word. I'm leaving a 12hr night shift so my brain isn't really co-operating while trying to double check myself right now. The main point there, though, was that critical hits result in more of the appropriate damage type being applied. That means Vipers will always have a significant advantage in single target DPS if you know your target faction. This helps to make up for the shortcomings of bullet damage type, and Afuris can't match it because enemies tend not to have multiple extreme weaknesses.

Edited by VKhaun
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Critical hits function the same way as any damage increase - Barrel Diffusion and Hornet Strike also increase elemental damage.

 

So what you're saying is that on Vipers you can build even more multiplicative increases in damage than you can on Afuris, because Afuris can only use Lethal Torrent, Hornet Strike and Barrel Diffusion?

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Ha, i remember flipping a coin to decide my next secondary after i was so foolish and build a Sicarus (leveled it to 30, sold it and never looked back).

 

I picked the Akfuris, back in the day when you could still buy single Furis in the shop.

 

Looking back, i didn't made such a bad move. I still have my Akfuris and occasionaly use them for fun.

 

Actualy it kind of annoys me that they removed the idea that Tenno weapons could be simply bought in the shop for high credit costs. Seeing how that made quite a lot of sense.

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