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Primary Mod Fixes


Pandoran_Stallion
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Hello Warframe Community, and DE if you're listening,

       I was playing with a Hek in a game of Tower III Defense when I suddenly realized that it would be a perfect gun- were it not for the mod system. Almost every primary is viable for endgame. However, all-powerful mods that are exclusive to rifles- A good example would be Serration or Rifle Amp- are inaccessible or useless to those that own shotguns. I feel that instead of buffing and nerfing all these mods and weapons, the solution to balance can be found in the mod system. 

 

     The problem is that switching classes is a pain because we have to start mod farming all over again, for mods that are useless on every other weapon and aren't as cost-effective or potent. My idea is that rather than a 'Shotgun' class and a 'Rifle' class, we should have a 'Primary' class- mods that work with every primary weapon in the game. We could then move on to weapon-exclusive mods, such as Thunderbolt for the bow, or eventually, an exclusive mod for rifles, shotguns, and so on. This is easier than 1) Nerfing and buffing all the weapons in the game, and 2) Buffing 'Shotgun' mods. Nightmare Mods such as Blaze or Accelerated Blast should remain on the mod list, but as 'Primary' mods. Ammo mods such as the Shotgun or Rifle Ammo Mutation mods should be kept as is, and made rifle, shotgun, or bow exclusive mods. Better mods of the two such as Hell's Chamber over Split Chamber should be chosen, because the game should reward the player more for ranking their mods and collecting them. Although a Gorgon with Accelerated Blast and Shred may be considered 'OP', this is not about the power of a weapon or its damage output, or even the best loadouts. This is about making every weapon fun for every player.

 

     It may seem that I'm a shotgun user from my comments, but in reality, I'm a rifle user. I have a lot of friends that are in pain in endgame due to this mod imbalance, and this is why I created this topic. 

 

     You are free to reply, and welcome to bring suggestions or improvements. However, please don't put down the ideas of others. I may sound like a grade-school teacher, but this thread is to foster ideas and -hopefully- present them to Digital Extremes in a kind, civil manner.

 

     In addition, don't post things like 'The Acrid is way more OP than any primary', because even though we know it is, that's not the focus or aim of this discussion. Don't mention Pistol mods, Melee mods, or Warframe mods here. Also, don't write things like 'IGNIS WITH BLAZE AND WILDFIRE IS WAY TOO OP', or even 'Burston is useless!'(not saying that it is), because, again, this topic is about making weapons fun. If it's overpowered or underpowered, that's up to the player and their mod loadout. No flame wars please, no off-topic comments, no direct personal insults, and represent the community well.

          -UpgradeInProgress, A.K.A Upgrade

 

   P.S. As a side note, please up vote this post or topic if you agree and support this statement. I'll do my best to reply to everyone.

 

 

Edit: I was reminded of the different mechanics of both weapons, and I failed to address that. I think that it's not a matter of the gun. With shotguns, you give up the fire rate and extreme accuracy of rifles, the silence of bows, and the raw accuracy and power of snipers for crowd control. You also give up long-distance shooting, as damage reduces over distance. The choice of every gun is a sacrifice in another category, and I don't think that an entire class of potentially great weapons and their users should suffer for it just because of numbers.

Edited by UpgradeInProgress
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i see couple flaws in that idea.

 

NUMBERS differ between same type mods on shotguns-rifles.

 

Shotguns have (usually)  bigger base dmg thus dmg mod for shotguns is not as powerfull as rifle dmg mod 

same thing goes for multishot/firerate.

 

making only 1 pool of primary mods for both shotguns/riffles (what about bows then?) would lead to more imbalance. In all aspects, more weapons could go better, and currently good weps could go wrong. Again it would not solve problem of having best weapons usually chosen for power, not pleasure of shooting it... 

 

More important: shotguns work differently, they shoot pellets. they are scaled differently for multishot/crit chances...

 

what to do with shotgun/rifle ammo mutation  mods from event? some of us are using them. 

 

generaly, id say NO to that idea.

Edited by PiotrGracz
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i see couple flaws in that idea.

 

NUMBERS differ between same type mods on shotguns-rifles.

 

Shotguns have (usually)  bigger base dmg thus dmg mod for shotguns is not as powerfull as rifle dmg mod 

same thing goes for multishot/firerate.

 

making only 1 pool of primary mods for both shotguns/riffles (what about bows then?) would lead to more imbalance. In all aspects, more weapons could go better, and currently good weps could go wrong. Again it would not solve problem of having best weapons usually chosen for power, not pleasure of shooting it... 

 

More important: shotguns work differently, they shoot pellets. they are scaled differently for multishot/crit chances...

 

what to do with shotgun/rifle ammo mutation  mods from event? some of us are using them. 

 

generaly, id say NO to that idea.

It's a valid point, I'll edit my post to compensate for that. Thank you for your input! As for mutation mods, those would be type-exclusive, and a 'primary' mod system wouldn't affect ammo types.

Edited by UpgradeInProgress
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i disagree with this idea.

shotguns are viable and as good as rifles, 90% Multishot versus a 120% Hell's Chamber and 90%+dmg compared to a 135% Serration (maxed 165%, but too expensive to fuse for the most of players) but shotguns have higher basedmg so it is equal in my thoughts.

may someone can compare this too mathematicly :)

all other mods are nearly the same... and dualmods exists for both weapons...

 

and btw. rifle-amp is just called RIFLE-amp but increase dmg for all primarys included shotguns and snipers!

 

sry for my bad english

 

 

and in addition: strun wraith is a shotgun and the best primary in the game so far....

Edited by Unschlagbar
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i disagree with this idea.

shotguns are viable and as good as rifles, 90% Multishot versus a 120% Hell's Chamber and 90%+dmg compared to a 135% Serration (maxed 165%, but too expensive to fuse for the most of players) but shotguns have higher basedmg so it is equal in my thoughts.

may someone can compare this too mathematicly :)

all other mods are nearly the same... and dualmods exists for both weapons...

 

and btw. rifle-amp is just called RIFLE-amp but increase dmg for all primarys included shotguns and snipers!

 

sry for my bad english

 

 

and in addition: strun wraith is a shotgun and the best primary in the game so far....

Rifle Amp ceased to work with shotguns as of hotfix 9.7.1. As for multishot, the numbers are not the important part. Almost any weapon is OP if you mod it with a lot of forma, and potato it. However, there's no fun factor in that! ;)

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Rifle Amp ceased to work with shotguns as of hotfix 9.7.1. As for multishot, the numbers are not the important part. Almost any weapon is OP if you mod it with a lot of forma, and potato it. However, there's no fun factor in that! ;)

ah ok, thank you. nice to know...

was it intended or a mistake by DE to remove rifle-amp from shotguns without implementing a new aura for them?

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You sir are getting in wrong area of thinking... 

It depends on the outlook. I, personally, am a semi-casual gamer, and so I look for fun factor but also want the ability to win. Hardcore gamers will look for OP builds, while casual gamers want fun. This is a good balance between the two, and actually allows some versatility in endgame as well.

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It depends on the outlook. I, personally, am a semi-casual gamer, and so I look for fun factor but also want the ability to win. Hardcore gamers will look for OP builds, while casual gamers want fun. This is a good balance between the two, and actually allows some versatility in endgame as well.

with all respect still cant agree...

Hardcore does not mean Op.

For one, hardcore mean dedicated, addicted, active in game...

Thus, this type of hardcore does not want more imbalance for purpose of wide "neutral" zone.

We want balance.

 

EDIT: Armor 2.0 coming soon.

It will affect evry type of damage scaling, thus edngame weapon viability...

Im going to say more about your opinion when this will come live.

Edited by PiotrGracz
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with all respect still cant agree...

Hardcore does not mean Op.

For one, hardcore mean dedicated, addicted, active in game...

Thus, this type of hardcore does not want more imbalance for purpose of wide "neutral" zone.

We want balance.

 

EDIT: Armor 2.0 coming soon.

It will affect evry type of damage scaling, thus edngame weapon viability...

Im going to say more about your opinion when this will come live.

I'll hold out on any edits to the main post involving the damage system, and I can't wait for Damage 2.0! Hopefully it will render the crux of this topic invalid and make it more of a personal preference thread, rather than one about balancing the game.

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Rifle Amp ceased to work with shotguns as of hotfix 9.7.1. As for multishot, the numbers are not the important part. Almost any weapon is OP if you mod it with a lot of forma, and potato it. However, there's no fun factor in that! ;)

 

Now you're just contradicting yourself.  One of your main issues in the OP is that serration is better than anything for the shotgun and rifle exclusive.  Rifle serration and multi shot (going to use 135% as only a minority has a 165%) is ~4.4x damage.  Shotgun point blank and multi shot is ~4.2x damage but is 3 mod points cheaper.  Shotgun also has a nightmare mod with regular damage on it for up to another 60% and rifle has nothing like that.

 

If numbers aren't the important part why did you mention serration at all?  More like you don't think that specific number is important because it counters your point.

 

You say there that making weapons OP has no fun factor... in your OP you ignored potential issues like the gorgon being op with shotgun mods because it would be fun and fun is the whole point.  Why is some other case of making a weapon OP somehow anti-fun?

 

Rifle amp is irrelevant anyway because energy siphon is far too OP.  Have a shotgun?  Just use energy siphon as its already better than rifle amp even for rifles.

 

If there is anything at all holding back shotguns (and as you yourself said, you can mod them and such to make them OP as well) it is that none of them are armor ignore but plenty of rifles and snipers are.  It isn't the mods at all.

Edited by Sesshou01
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Now you're just contradicting yourself.  One of your main issues in the OP is that serration is better than anything for the shotgun and rifle exclusive.  Rifle serration and multi shot (going to use 135% as only a minority has a 165%) is ~4.4x damage.  Shotgun point blank and multi shot is ~4.2x damage but is 3 mod points cheaper.  Shotgun also has a nightmare mod with regular damage on it for up to another 60% and rifle has nothing like that.

 

If numbers aren't the important part why did you mention serration at all?  More like you don't think that specific number is important because it counters your point.

 

You say there that making weapons OP has no fun factor... in your OP you ignored potential issues like the gorgon being op with shotgun mods because it would be fun and fun is the whole point.  Why is some other case of making a weapon OP somehow anti-fun?

 

Rifle amp is irrelevant anyway because energy siphon is far too OP.  Have a shotgun?  Just use energy siphon as its already better than rifle amp even for rifles.

 

If there is anything at all holding back shotguns (and as you yourself said, you can mod them and such to make them OP as well) it is that none of them are armor ignore but plenty of rifles and snipers are.  It isn't the mods at all.

I'm apologize for the lack of clarity. I'm not saying that OP isn't fun, I love OP weapons as much as the next guy. I'm simply saying that weapons that are not OP don't allow fun and variety in endgame. Instead, you worry about having your head shot off by a level 150+ Corrupted Heavy Gunner, and that's no fun at all.

Edited by UpgradeInProgress
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