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[DE]Megan

Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

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Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

 

Scott's Comments:

Trinity has always been a tricky frame to get right, she needs to fill her role in the group but also be viable in a solo context. I think the changes to Trinity addresses concerns and imbalances with her initial design and also grants her some damage capabilities. Again I will be looking at feedback and stats to see how she performs.

 

Changes:

 

Well of Life: Now plays reaction animation, Life is 10x multiplied allowing players to leech enough health out.

 

Energy Vampire: Now plays reaction animation and doesn't require damage to get energy. Instead target radiates a set amount of energy every couple of seconds. Also does damage to the target (Damage scales with strength mod)

 

Link: No longer damage immunity changed to damage reduction, now links to several targets at once amplifying the incoming damage. Increased radius search for link targets.

 

Blessing: Animation speed changes and timing. No longer wait till end of casting animation to get power effects.

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Posted · Hidden by [DE]Megan, September 6, 2013 - spam

first

 

I like the changes, though i'm worried about how disrupters will affect her now. Before she was immune which helped role as a team support because she always had energy to support the team in high level infested defense and mobile defense...

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I hope she is still immune to disrupters, as that was a big help always having energy to give the team in high level infested defense.

 

This is getting very ammusing.  Never done anything to deserve a warning, but since my post has been warned, deleted, and now edited despite it containing constructive feedback both the first and second times I think i'll shoot for another pointless disciplinary action.

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Need to test it, I really want to see these Link changes to area damage.

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Ech, I want to love Trinity. I generally love playing support and healing roles in games. But there's just something wrong with her core design. I don't think the skills need to be changed, I think on the whole they need to be completely scrapped and remade. 

 

At least now her 1 and 2 are somewhat different as for me that was a huge downside before, her 1 and 2 abilities being almost identical makes the frame very boring to play. 

I think the problem is rooted in that there isn't enough feedback offered by the game. Why is Medic fun to play in TF2? Because you are healing your target directly and the game is giving you feedback for it, showing your targets health and showing how much you are healing them. With Trinity I cast Well of Life and then I just have to assume I'm healing them, if I haven't pressed 'z' I get no visual feedback about my presence on the field and therefore feel useless, therefore don't enjoy playing her.

 

[EDIT] 

After Just mucking around with her, I have to say I really like the new changes to WoL and EV they do feel much more unique so well done Scott :)

I think what should be top of your list if you want to make Trinity a more fun Frame to play is visual feedback. When a Team-mate shoots a WoL target there should be a particle system that shows green energy travelling from said enemy to the player shooting them, when a Team-mate gets Energy from EV they should have a small aura appear around them as if they have just been revitalised. And please, for the love of the Lotus, could we please get better Link visuals: The stationary straight beams look so gross and its now worse that there are more of them. I suggest looking at the Medi-beams in TF2 for inspiration. Valve did a great job at making playing the healer feel rewarding. 

 

Also you forgot to alter the mod descriptions of EV and Link. EV still says damaging the enemy is how you get the energy and Link still says 'a nearby enemy' implying it only effects one enemy.

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anyway.

 

amount of damage delivered by high level mobs will kill Trinity even with Link active. So basically you killed Link for high level, because there is no reason to tank with it without blessing. So before this nerf you could and should alternate link with blessing and vice versa, now you can't do that. Mobs will eat you alive. Damage reflection is not even fun, level 20 grineer get 1 ONE damage reflected when he shot trinity.

 

Energy vampire, even if amount of energy generated by this ability is bigger than in older version, it still sucks, because it's a dot. Dot is nice but not in this case. Also entire team need to be close to victim to get energy, you DO understand that it's sometimes impossible because you know, they shoot back? so in order to provide team with energy  i need to blessing them first and then team must dance around vampired target in order to get this energy? it's not very comforting you know?

 

Well of life is CC now? cool. single target cc but still.

 

Blessing, it was fine before.

 

So basically what you did is a nerf, when Trinity is in need of redesign.

 

So now tell me DE, WHY YOU HATE Trinity that much?

 

p.s. To put it simple DE. You made Trinity gameplay needlessly overcomplicated. Not only for Trinity player but for entire team as well.

 

p.p.s. and in the same time you made trinity from 3 powers frame to 2 powers frame.

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So, you changed two abilities everyone liked instead of, you know, fixing those that are broken. You made me one sad tenno, Scott.

 

Full ack!

 

>Link: No longer damage immunity changed to damage reduction, now links to several targets at once amplifying the incoming damage. Increased

>radius search for link targets.

 

...the only ability keeping Trinity alive, and able to support the team, when heavy S#&$ goes on...

 

 

thats a sad decision...

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In my opinion you all just destroyed Trinity. Hardly anyone played her. I was one of the few who does. You destroyed Energy Vampire. It no longer is useful. 

 

You cast it on an enemy, he dies before you get any regeneration because it's a ROT(Regen over time) ability now. Great job there...(sarcasm).

 

Link, the only thing that made it so trinity could keep the team alive. Destroyed. Now in higher levels where Trinity was useful, and the only frame that could keep her team alive is useless.

 

Ever play an Ember on high level missions? You still get shredded, and killed to fast. Exact same thing is going to happen to Trinity.

 

Only changes I liked about Trinity was the Well of LIfe, and the fact that you added visual indications of Blessing being up. Thats the only changes Trinity needed.

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im still quite new to the game and i stopped play my trinity time ago, the multiple link? if you connect to many targets wont you get immun to dmg and all the connected targets takes all dmg instead? thought it was like uhm 20% > 40% > 60% > 80% dmg reduction. Depending on targets you where connected to or something maybe not sure :P
Havent been able to log in and see how the new link works.

Since the mod is 4 ranks 0, 1, 2, 3 i guess it could link 4 targets max? and give you 80% dmg reduction?

hmm

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Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

 

Scott's Comments:

Trinity has always been a tricky frame to get right, she needs to fill her role in the group but also be viable in a solo context. I think the changes to Trinity addresses concerns and imbalances with her initial design and also grants her some damage capabilities. Again I will be looking at feedback and stats to see how she performs.

 

She did pretty well in solo and teams.

 

Changes:

 

Well of Life: Now plays reaction animation, Life is 10x multiplied allowing players to leech enough health out.

 

The previous "problem" with this is, if there was any, was the cap on health gained.

If there is still a cap then getting health faster doesnt really do that much of anything.

If the cap is greater then, i guess, it's better.

 

Energy Vampire: Now plays reaction animation and doesn't require damage to get energy. Instead target radiates a set amount of energy every couple of seconds. Also does damage to the target (Damage scales with strength mod)

 

Gotta wait and see on this because the great thing about the previous version was that you could get your energy quickly.

Having to wait for ticks doesnt usually result in being able to do combinations.

Damage will also likely be negligible.

 

Link: No longer damage immunity changed to damage reduction, now links to several targets at once amplifying the incoming damage. Increased radius search for link targets.

 

Given that you are waiting for ticks to get magic back this escape ability is trashed as the duration will likely end this before you get any good amount of energy back to be able to cast this and anything else. The combination of powers for Trinity, a frame that had the best combos within her own powerset, has been severely cut down.

 

Blessing: Animation speed changes and timing. No longer wait till end of casting animation to get power effects.

 

This really didnt need a change but ok.

I got to see the animation but from what is explained she will be wasting her invulnerability effects while she is still casting. So some time is wasted which she cant use to reposition herself in the field. Essentially this makes casting this ability even MORE likely to be used away from combat, more than before.

 

All of this is based on not playing. 

I will come back and see how it is after playing with her.

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After doing a bunch of missions, both solo and in groups, without Energy Siphon but with all abilities maxed out, here are my findings.

 

Well of Life: It seems more useful now. It levitates the enemy in the air and coats them in a green aura which is easily spotted by teammates but the important thing is that, not only does it render them helpless, making it good for removing major threats from play, it also multiplies the enemies health by 10. Now the target can't be shot down instantly and actually remain for a decent amount of time, allowing the entire team to collect health as needed. With the boost in health intake, it's actually possible to lose and regain health multiple times in a fairly long time span using one enemy.

 

The main problem though is that I find it still is being rarely used because of Blessing. I can easily see WoL being useful in a tight situation with little energy but I have to say, for me, that is a pretty rare occurrence. Having said that, I wouldn't change it. It's great now.

 

Energy vampire: My original thoughts remain. The pulse works very well, giving a fairly good amount of energy each time for about 4 pulses total with a noticeable space between each pulse (I've been told the space long between pulses is due to power duration mods). It stuns the enemy in place, but does not raise them off the ground like Well of Life. The range, however, is a little odd. The visible pulse itself only goes out a few meters, but the actual distance you receive energy is around 23 meters (Tested with marking the enemy and moving away). It makes using the ability a little weird at first so I'd like to see some sort of visual indication of energy gain if only for clarification. Another thing to point out is that it is possible to stun lock an enemy with Energy Vampire and essentially have a stationary energy beacon, meaning maintaining energy levels can be quite easy but even with this tactic, spamming abilities resulted in hard times, as it should.

 

The damage is pretty unnoticeable in my opinion but I think I see why it's there. I believe it could be used to negate the tactic I just mentioned of stun locking enemies for continuous energy but the damage is so small, its useless for this as it'll never be able to finish an enemy off before you're maxed out. As a note, during a solo mission I stun locked an enemy with Energy Vampire and used him as makeshift cover while trapped in the open. It worked pretty well. Another good tactic is to combine Well of Life with Energy Vampire. With the damage reduction of WoL, your energy beacon is safe to grant energy without the risk of it dieing off by stray shots or trigger happy allies.

 

Due to the issue of power duration lengthening time between pulses, I suggest the mods either shorten the time between pulses or allow more pulses per use.

 

Link: I have to admit, despite Trinity's fragility, Link is still a very useful ability. My only argument against it would be I had about 620 shields and roughly the same for health so that definitely helped my survivability but given her position, any player using Trinity would boost shields and health to compensate so I still feel my testing of Link remains valid on a veteran player level. The range itself is about 19 meters which is pretty darn long and the damage reduction was noticeable when in the thick of battle. With the range of it, I was unable to tell whether or not Link grants the damage reduction even if it is not linked to an enemy. I would think not as previously, you did not get invulnerability until you were linked so it stands to reason that would remain the same. I will do more testing and update this soon. I cant say much about the additional damage dealt to enemies, I really didn't notice.

 

I don't know what to suggest for it. A little more damage reduction wouldn't hurt but over all I'm fine with it.

 

Blessing: Given my time with the other abilities, I'm fine with where Blessing is now. With Energy Vampire no longer the incredibly powerful ability it was, Blessing is not something that can be spammed and must be conserved for emergencies as it should. It's rewards are justified in my opinion. The change in casting time is negligible to me. It was quick in it's recent change prior to this one and I hardly noticed anything different now.

 

I must be honest and say that Blessing is still my most used ability when playing Trinity but considering I have max Flow, Streamline, and there's rarely a group that isn't using at least 1 Energy Siphon, I can't really blame the ability that I have so much energy at all times.

 

I know for a fact most players are going to boo you as loud and hard as they can, Scott, but as a player who's played as Trinity for 240 hours out of my total 572, I'm content with the changes made.

 

You certainly changed my mind, Scott.

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The energy vampire buff is a bit slow. i really like everything else about it except the slowness of the pulses. It makes the issue of allies using AOE worse because you only get 30 per pulse at max rank.

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energy vamp is a little to slow and the damage might as well not be there max power  mod and max skill only gets like 50 a pulse and it feels like it takes forever for that first pulse

the thing would normaly die in a team setting before anything even happens maybe speed up the pulses and if the target dies it explodes in 50% of the remaining energy

WoL's enemy dependence is really pain full still its nice it takes one weak enemy out of a fight but can't it just be a regen hp skill for you and every teammates around you? hp regen overtime it could even pulse like energy vamp just be on trinity

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I don't even talk about how this current iteration of energy vampire is terrible. absolutely terrible.

 

You just completely REVERSED the flow of knowledge. it went from being "HEY IM GLOWING, SHOOT ME FOR FREE ENERGY" to "IF YOU SHOOT ME YOU DONT GET ENERGY". That's absolutely a horrible idea. Seriously. How are "Normal" players supposed to know this?

 

Now I have to stand around for 30 seconds so I can actually siphon some energy while my entire team is way ahead of me. otherwise they just kill it.

 

I just. I don't understand. How did this even get past testing? I. I. WHAT?

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My observations after playing a few maps.
(I have a 5-Forma Trinity, I use Aura Helm. Energy Siphon, Continuity, Redirection, Vigor, Flow, Energy Vampire, Link, Streamline, Fortitude, Constitution and Blessing)

Well of Life:
Did not test. It's still the old Well of Life, just bigger damage recovered. Whippidydoo!

Energy Vampire:
DO NOT USE DETHCUBE ANYMORE. FFS, between the DOT Damage effect E.V. adds and Machine Cannon, the mob will be ruined before the second pulse, ending your energy regain before you even get back the cost to cast.
That or wait for Heavy mobs, and NEVER EVER EVER Go below 50en trying to save your party. Then Cast and behind a box while you leech his Energy.
Also, Shade might be helpful in the regard. Cast E.V. then pray for a cloak. And doubly pray that the Rhino doesn't Hero the heavy.

Link:
Cast it and play as normal ... as normal as you can from inside a blinding spiderweb of power lines. Typically I would use link and try to attract attention to myself, or use it in conjunction with E.V. ... Both these tactics are gone.

I'm still iffy on the whole Ancient Disruptor, Shockwave Moa, Grineer Roller question. As I'm not sure if I resisted a lot, of if Link actually stopped them.

Blessing:
So, they made it like it was after Update 7. Yippy!. There are still a lot of things that get through Blessing, like knockdowns. But that's actually FINE and still keeps you on your toes. Blessing has never been God-Mode. It's basically Iron Skin on a timer, with fewer resists.


 

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energy vamp is a little to slow and the damage might as well not be there max power  mod and max skill only gets like 50 a pulse and it feels like it takes forever for that first pulse

the thing would normaly die in a team setting before anything even happens maybe speed up the pulses and if the target dies it explodes in 50% of the remaining energy

WoL's enemy dependence is really pain full still its nice it takes one weak enemy out of a fight but can't it just be a regen hp skill for you and every teammates around you? hp regen overtime it could even pulse like energy vamp just be on trinity

Wow after playing in a semi higher level area I noticed energy vamp does a % damage not a fixed damage O_O i sorta hope that stays but sorta hope it goes.... to WoL

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Having used Trinity on a Survival run that lasted for a 1h 30m 43s run (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/User:Brizingr5#Feats_of_Strength), here's what I have to say about this:

Well of Life: (pointless)

Will always be inferior to the simple blessing. I have no idea why you even try to revive this skill.

Energy Vampire: (bad)

Huge problem with this change. Not only have you reversed the mindset of what people are supposed to do when they see an Vampired target (goes from "HEY SHOOT HIM" to "OMG DON'T KILL HIM"), but you put on a huge limiter in energy income. One of the skills a good Trinity would have is to be able to use many energy vampires within a short period of time because targets would die off. This would circumvent the 130 (with focus) max energy income limit that the skill had. By changing the way this works, you have put an arbitrary skill ceiling on this technique to disallow players to go above and beyond in restoring their teammates energy.

Suggested fix for this will be in a separate post so it gets more attention than this wall of text. (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102830-trinity-98-feedback-thread/?p=1183520)

Link: (pointless for most)

I only ever used Energy Vampire and Blessing on my Trinity, ever. Why should I be invulnerable but the rest of my team suffer damage? Considering I have a huge amount of energy at my command (both orbs from kills by my team and Energy Vampire), there's really no reason why I can't keep Blessing up for the entire time (in fact that's exactly what I did for that hour and 30 minutes). So the change to link not only crippled its effectiveness in keeping her alive to do her own role as a support, but you attempted to add on a trait that she doesn't do: damage.

Blessing: (good)

Oh good, so it finally works the way it was supposed to. A+

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Energy Vampire [suggested Fix]:

I like where this is going in the whole: players don't have to actively find the target and shoot it (or use an AoE skill and @#&*( all the energy from the rest of the team), but as my previous post states, there are obvious flaws to it.  Here's my suggestion:

 

Instead of making it RoT (regen over time), how about causing it to be an AoE regen as the target takes damage (meaning: as the target takes damage, all tenno in the area will gain an amount of energy).  This will allow the trin to force energy onto other players, remove the issue of not being able to find the Vampired target, and still leave the skill ceiling open for pro trins to maximize energy income for the team.

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I haven't tested it yet, but gotta say it doesn't look so good on paper...

Seems like you took away what made Trinity... Well, Trinity.

Kinda disappointed, Tenno.

 

EDIT:

Just tested it and... WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY BELOVED WARFRAME?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO³¹²³¹³¹³²¹³!!!!!!³²¹³¹²³¹³²¹

 

Well of life: Don't really use it, but loved the changes.

Energy Vampire: Kinda useless, since enemies die too fast, and even if we keep them alive it's still a time waster, plus we have to be near them, otherwise it doesn't work.

Link: Hated it. I mean, Trinity's ridiculously weak when it comes to survivability, and even with part of the dmg transfered to the enemies, she still dies too fast.

Blessing: Loved it.

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Why does Energy Vampire have to be casted on an enemy?

 

If your going to go the route of making it regen by casting it ON something for a certain time... just make it a regular cast.

 

Casting it will cause some sort of "Item" to be placed wherever you casted it, and if your within x distance of this item it will contiously regen your  teams energy (It shouldnt regen Trinity's own energy, as that would be infinite energy) for the time it lasts.

 

Focus would improve the amount per pulse, Duration would make it last longer and increase the amount pulses per cast, Range would give it a higher range of effect.

 

^ The above would be much better imo then casting it on an enemy that no one is allowed to shoot (Including our sentinels which we do not control)

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Alright now that I've tested it, my original post about it destroying Trinity hasn't changed.

 

Energy Vampire, you can kill the enemy before it gives any energy. So you just lose energy.( could happen with the Energy vampire before the change, but even if you did any damage you'd get some energy back.) Now you have to wait, and hope it doesn't day so you get at least enough to cast the ability again. So it's now useless.

 

Link. Great now i get blinded and seem to take the same amount of damage with it on as I did with it off. I tested it in 3 missions. A low level a medium level and a high level.

 

I was dead on the medium/High level before the damage from link killed anything. Low level your shields are out by the time it kills 3 enemies. And good luck being able to see because the ability is to bright and basically blinds you.

 

Should of just left Trinity alone in my opinion. Now everyone else is going to leave her alone because she has only one useful ability Bless. Yay cast it get killed while casting it now, and then your team mate has to waste the time you gave them to be invulnerably ressing you.

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I am fine with almost all the changes. I really like that the totally useless Well of Life is at least a stun now; I like the multi-target Link, and Blessing is more than enough Invulnerability for one Frame - the cast time buff is great too.

However, Energy Vampire wasn't very well thought through. I love the AoE pulse idea, but now I have to make sure that my teammates know that I am casting it, and then tell the ones with Dethcubes and Wyrms to stay away so they don't kill it before the pulses finish, or it will cost more energy than I can get back, which is completely pointless. 

I have a couple of ideas for solving this:
1. Make the Vampired target invulnerable to all damage except that done by E.V.
2. Make the death of a Vampired target release a pulse worth 33%-50% of all energy that would have been given by the remaining pulses
3. Make Vampired targets untargetable by Sentinels
4. Make the pulses on the Vampired targets release faster as the targets take more damage not being dealt by E.V. 

If this issue with E.V. gets fixed I think we have a much better Trinity to play with. Thanks for the update guys! :)

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I really loved Trinity, but what has me playing other warframes over her is that W.o.L and E.V. are put onto an enemy. Unless everyone in the team, including Trinity herself, have low or unmodded weapons most of the enemies will die before you can get any use out of the abilities. I have had many times I try to tell my team over skype 'Hey X, hit this.' only to have my target fall dead before I can get the healing to my intended player, or before I can get energy back with E.V. These problems are still there, maybe even made worse, because E.V. now takes time to get the energy back making AoE skills in Rhino, Nova, Ember, Volt, and Excalibur to name a few more of a liability in killing off your marked target early.

 

To toss my few ideas into the pool:

Well of Life can be made into a pulse off a player as well, this way you can put it on say a tanky Rhino or Frost to keep the front alive but still can put it onto a boss or a smaller guy if solo knowing to leave them up. Another idea could be creating an object that would be the center of the healing pulses, think of Loki's Decoy skill or Saryn's Molt, it would create a model by you or where you target and would pulse healing instead of aggro.

 

Energy Vampire could be made to affect multiple targets, much like Nova's Molecular Prime skill, and pulse for much less to make up for there being so many pulses instead of just the one. I can see it being abused heavily in high end where things stay alive much much longer, having almost a whole room pulse for even small amounts of energy would stack up. Maybe could have it work like Mag's Bullet Attractor, where when the target dies with the debuff still on, they would explode for a set amount of energy or percent of what remained.

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I was dead on the medium/High level before the damage from link killed anything. Low level your shields are out by the time it kills 3 enemies. And good luck being able to see because the ability is to bright and basically blinds you.

 

 

Cast Blessing over your Link... You get the Invulnerability from Blessing, but you will still deal damage with Link. Having two Invuln. abilities on the Warframe was just overkill.

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