Trinity 9.8: Feedback Thread

[GTG3000]

Because her abilities were really all-or nothing, that is with EV being instaenergy to whoever killed the guy and Link being invulnerability vs being paper-thin... And same with Blessing now being the healing ability to end all healing abilities, with no skill attached. It's understandable why Scott did what he did, although there were better ways to do it.

I don't think there ever is going to be a straight rollback in this game, though. EV as it is right now is pretty useful, if annoying, gives energy to whole team in a really good range (the range of the FX doesn't show the real range), and it works despite anything, no more getting trapped in a bossfight with no energy because you're dealing no damage! It was changed to a fire-and-forget skill, though, and that's not really nice. Same as with Blessing, a fire-and-forget support "ability to end all abilities" with only energy as it's restraint is not something Trinity should have.

The only good 'fire and forget' in her arsenal used to be Link, since it had limited range, a brief pause for casting that ment that even if you have the energy, meaning that you're going to feel every little bit of damage you reflect usually, and it was the skill a warframe, concentrated on helping those around her, would need most.

Blessing needs to be remade into something more of a panic-button, that wouldn't be allowed to be kept up at all times.

EV needs change towards urgency. Maybe make it same as it is, but applying an effect to Trinity, using Link to find targets after original one dies. Maybe just a rollback to how it used to be, but that would be a bit boring.

WoL... Well, there were dosens of different ideas about it in this thread.

And link needs to make a return.

[00zau]

I think that Trinity could use some influence from DnD's cleric and druid classes, which are competent on the offense and have good defenses to complement their healing and buffing abilities. So here are a set of changes I think would make Trinity more fun and unique to play.

 

Well of Life: Rename the ability "Protective Spirit" or something in that line. This ability heals a flat ammount of damage to all players when cast, then adds a moderate duration of either damage reduction or damage absorbtion (like Rhino's Iron Skin). Say, 50/100/150/200 heal, 20/25/30/40 duration, either 20/25/30/35% damage reduction or 100/200/300/500 absorbtion. This makes this ability usable as a panic button. As it is, WoL can't help someone who's about to die, since they have to actively find your target and shoot it to get health back.

 

Energy Vampire: In line with what Link does, EV will now go off when Trinity takes damage, releasing minor pulses of energy whenever she is hit. Alternatively, it could give off (a larger pulse of) energy whenever she gets a kill. 10/15/20/25 duration, 3/3/4/5 energy per hit (or 10/10/15/20 per kill). Maybe give it both at once?

 

Link: Needs to deal more damage, and more damage reduction. As it is, targets take a bunch of no damage, and Trin will die before anything else does if she tries to use it in a group of enemies large enough to do usable damage. Up the damage reflection to something like 400% at max (affected by focus), and allow the damage reduction to be affected by focus. Make link draw aggro so Trinity can make the most of Link. This will also help use EV, since the aggro and extra tanking will help EV go off more.

 

Blessing: More of less fine. Ults are supposed to be powerful. Clearing a room with M-Prime also protects the team pretty well, doesn't it? Maybe reduce the healing to encourage use of Protective Spirit; making it regenerate shields and health on your allies for the duration. Also, maybe make it stabalize downed allies, making this a better panic button ability.

 

In line with her new, more tanky skillset (with the new EV and all), increase her base armor to 50-100 as well. Being made of paper and only being able to take hits because of skills is kind of back and forth. Having a shade better surviability without skills would be nice.

[PhantomBR]

I think that Trinity could use some influence from DnD's cleric and druid classes, which are competent on the offense and have good defenses to complement their healing and buffing abilities. So here are a set of changes I think would make Trinity more fun and unique to play.

 

Well of Life: Rename the ability "Protective Spirit" or something in that line. This ability heals a flat ammount of damage to all players when cast, then adds a moderate duration of either damage reduction or damage absorbtion (like Rhino's Iron Skin). Say, 50/100/150/200 heal, 20/25/30/40 duration, either 20/25/30/35% damage reduction or 100/200/300/500 absorbtion. This makes this ability usable as a panic button. As it is, WoL can't help someone who's about to die, since they have to actively find your target and shoot it to get health back.

 

WoL question must be Target system or act en masse at all? about the effects of other questions is WHY?! Blessing is that heals all makes for maximum protection and even making immortal for a time, that's the answer then why do again resemble ability!?. In that case it should be simple and not expensive in terms of energy capacity, therefore it! even if it is healing and one purpose even if it is not immediately and by a second well is the best it does not say, and if this ability to raise property bleeding companions so it is generally turn out yummy :)

Generally Trinity in their abilities even now looks more like a healer and Controling character and let so be it. hey, this role is going.

[BirdOfSong]

This right here: Submitted a bug report, though this needs to be scaled down a bit. I only had upgraded my energy vampire to level 3. I would understand that damage being to shields, as it is ment to drain energy. But this was health.

[DeltaF0rce]

Trinity still sucks.

 

Increasing enemy's health by x10 just for the sake of being able to get more health out of the target by shooting it, just does not feel right.

 

Previous version was fine as it was.

 

Same with Energy Vampire.

 

The previous version actualy allowed you to gain some decent energy, since it was linked to damaging the target, which is what you want to do anyway.

 

Now we have that weak interval that regenerates a negligible amount of energy and you even have to avoid killing that particular enemy to have maximum effect (and even maximum is weaksauce).

 

 

Ultimate still takes way too long time to be cast, especially since Trinity is extremely squishy with default health and insanely low armour of 10.

[GTG3000]

This is how it intended to be, birdie.

 

I think that Trinity could use some influence from DnD's cleric and druid classes, which are competent on the offense and have good defenses to complement their healing and buffing abilities. So here are a set of changes I think would make Trinity more fun and unique to play.

 

Well of Life: Rename the ability "Protective Spirit" or something in that line. This ability heals a flat ammount of damage to all players when cast, then adds a moderate duration of either damage reduction or damage absorbtion (like Rhino's Iron Skin). Say, 50/100/150/200 heal, 20/25/30/40 duration, either 20/25/30/35% damage reduction or 100/200/300/500 absorbtion. This makes this ability usable as a panic button. As it is, WoL can't help someone who's about to die, since they have to actively find your target and shoot it to get health back.

 

Energy Vampire: In line with what Link does, EV will now go off when Trinity takes damage, releasing minor pulses of energy whenever she is hit. Alternatively, it could give off (a larger pulse of) energy whenever she gets a kill. 10/15/20/25 duration, 3/3/4/5 energy per hit (or 10/10/15/20 per kill). Maybe give it both at once?

 

Link: Needs to deal more damage, and more damage reduction. As it is, targets take a bunch of no damage, and Trin will die before anything else does if she tries to use it in a group of enemies large enough to do usable damage. Up the damage reflection to something like 400% at max (affected by focus), and allow the damage reduction to be affected by focus. Make link draw aggro so Trinity can make the most of Link. This will also help use EV, since the aggro and extra tanking will help EV go off more.

 

Blessing: More of less fine. Ults are supposed to be powerful. Clearing a room with M-Prime also protects the team pretty well, doesn't it? Maybe reduce the healing to encourage use of Protective Spirit; making it regenerate shields and health on your allies for the duration. Also, maybe make it stabalize downed allies, making this a better panic button ability.

 

In line with her new, more tanky skillset (with the new EV and all), increase her base armor to 50-100 as well. Being made of paper and only being able to take hits because of skills is kind of back and forth. Having a shade better surviability without skills would be nice.

Well, a battle cleric is what this game needs badly, although I wouldn't say I'm all for blessing weapons.

About your suggestions -

• A 'protective spirit' ability would be really nice. Especially if it would be sort-of a self-aiming projectile like suriken, and maybe with some small AoE to briefly stun enemies/help allies really close to the hurt player.

  I think it would go better as an absorb shield rather than reduction, although I may be wrong... Waiting for damage 2.0 on that.

• I don't really think that turning Trinity into a complete Tank with EV, converting damage to energy for everyone... I think the idea with a kill is really nice, but I also think that it would invalidate her in certain bossfights and alike situations where the trash mobs die way too quickly.

  My personal idea would be either a link, that is cast like it is, but with AoE going off from Trinity, and with additional power per pulse for each enemy, linked, although that makes it as slow as it would be.

  My favorite idea from this thread so far is to make it an ability cast on Trin herself (adding a hefty 'power in use' cooldown to it), that would work like previous EV, but giving off AoE pulses. Perhaps it would be made so that she has to deal a certain amount of damage before the pulse goes off, along with adding a buff to the cap per each enemy Linked.

• I certainly agree, however, that Link needs to reduce more damage. Link was a very valuable survival skill for her, allowing her to resurrect allies as well as to mind the enemies less. Damage-Link is't in a terrible need I'd say, since most it gave was survivability for occasional tanking.

  I certainly like the synergy of EV and Link in your suggestion, but I hope tanking won't be made necessary for her. A healer isn't supposed to be managing aggro for the team, as well as drawing a crowd towards her as she resurrects someone. The potential for link, in my opinion, lie in how it helps her survive crowds of enemies to be on par with the team as it advances, being there to heal or resupply them.

  I would suggest making link a 75% reduction, going up to 100% with focus, with four tendrils as it has now. I am not sure damage should be the focus of it, since it would make it pretty overpowered if it was drawing Aggro along with returning 4x damage ignoring armour. Doing bunch of no-damage is fine as long as it gives invulnerability to her, but that seems to be only my point of view, it seems.

• Well... Blessing is sorta OP since it scales so bloody well. But I can agree, changing it from working as it is now in any significant way would be very complicated and stands a chance of ruining the warframe alltogether.

Edited October 4, 2013 by GTG3000

[Estred]

This right here: Submitted a bug report, though this needs to be scaled down a bit. I only had upgraded my energy vampire to level 3. I would understand that damage being to shields, as it is ment to drain energy. But this was health.

 

It's not a glitch/bug. EV deals a % of thier HP in damage per tick. It is effected by armor, meaning it does X3 damage to Light Infested, which Phorid is. If you combo'd Well of Life first and timed it so WoL expires before EV does, that final 1 or 2 ticks of EV should be devastatingly powerful as it's dealing a % based damage based on the enemy having X10 health.

[Imortalgene]

Trinity has prety sick combos with well of life and energy vampire!!! that makes her prety unique!!! shes awesome!!

[GTG3000]

Combos? There's one combo. And if you screw it up, it kills the guy.

[c.BOLTSON]

I love Trinity! She is my favourite. Then again I always like the medic / healer / support type of roles.

I just wish the team health bars didn't cover the chat window in game. Also personally I took off all of Trinity's powers except for blessing.

I have not tried her other powers recently I just find blessing is all she needs. I stack extra energy and tanking mods in the extra slots I free up.

I find I am always lacking damage and that is to be expected. I just wish Trinity had a higher base armour. However I hear you guys are making Armour 2.0?

[Amistyrja]

I just wish the team health bars didn't cover the chat window in game. Also personally I took off all of Trinity's powers except for blessing.

Drag the chat window above your team status display. This has to be done manually every mission.

 

So I heard EV was useless. Well idk, I'll just be here enjoying my infinite energy. But DE please do something about how duration mods affect the ability.

[GTG3000]

I find I am always lacking damage and that is to be expected. I just wish Trinity had a higher base armour. However I hear you guys are making Armour 2.0?

Her paper-ness is a reminder of how she was intended to rely solely on Link to survive. That's how it was, and that's how it ought to be.

[Chocobite]

I love trinity the way she is now. Especially energy vampire's changes.

People who hate EV after the patch, please read my post carefully.

In my opinion, trinity is a support frame, so she will be godlike when she has reliable teammate who fit other role.

EV  give a chance for your teammate to not focusing gain energy from killing/shooting certain enemies.
They can leisurely do whatever they role need to do, no need worry about search energy.

The radius is okay, especially in defense, survival, mobile defense. It is 25 meters. Highest of any damaging ultimate. If you think this is not enough, give stretch mod to your trin.

Tick slowly? I don't really mind this, because with streamline and focus, do you know that you got 32 energy at the first tick for 35 energy cost? with energy siphon, you almost feel that you don't waste energy at all. This also give all of your teammate free energy. 

For the most important thing,  I see many people feel that energy vampire kill their host easily, but the new Well of Lifehelps here. Do you know if you cast EV, then WoL at the enemy, EV will take % from enemy's base health, not the one which multiply by 10x. With this combo, even my nova teammate spam her ultimate, mol prime, the enemy won't down easily, esp the enemy is heavy/ancient/etc. 

With this combo, when EV is wear off, you can recast it again, so you only need 1 enemy for maxing all of your teammate energy forever (not let enemy dying).

People should learn to avoid shooting enemy with energy vampire, that is what every people need to do. 4 people in a squad even can take a sit to get max energy from 1 enemy if they don't shoot the enemy at all while old EV can't do this.

Link may be needed to be reworked, because I don't use this skill anymore. WoL only used for give 10x health to enemy and please don't change it, this works well for EV. WoL should give ammo/others rather than health because we have our Blessing. 

For closing words, I can give my teammate Blessing for invicibility almost all the time because I easily maxed my energy, and at the same time maxed all my teammate's energy as well.

I'm sorry for  the grammatical error and bad English.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Chocobite

[holyicon]

Her paper-ness is a reminder of how she was intended to rely solely on Link to survive. That's how it was, and that's how it ought to be.

 

Wait... that she ought to rely on Link and that makes up for the lack of armour -or- that she aught to be papery even while Nu Link is up?

To be clear, I have no issues with Trin's armour. To me it's just a stat that play-style and awareness can overcome. This can be done with a Redirection, maybe even a Vigor and a little prudence.

But in my experience, anything over Lv90 (I.E. any and all of my Alerts) is a bad time for Nu Link. On the occasions when I was testing it, having Nu Link up was functionally no better than Drop-Kicking past a group of Grineer and waiting for Shade to Ghost me before rezzing a buddy.

{Skip below if looks TL:DR}

So this "reminder" as you called it. Is that a finger shaking at me? Saying, "Hold on little lady! Don't go thinking you can actually FIGHT this battle! You're just a healer ... ooh and by the way. One of those 'tricks' you had to stay alive long enough to actually do that? Well now we're going to classify it as an offensive ability so we can justify stripping it of the function we'd rather you be using your Blessing for. Though don't get your hopes up, it still only does superfluous damage, yeah, not enough to actually WANT to stand there and take the requisite punishment needed for it to add up to anything. Really, use Blessing on top of that. Really just use Blessing all the time. In fact, use Blessing so much that the fact link does anything at all really shouldn't matter. I mean, it's an extra 75 (adjusted for whatever mods you run) energy right? That's a small price to pay every (adjusted for whatever mods you run) seconds of not getting knocked down as often and a Pink Floyd style laser show, right? Just, get back in the kitchen, let the poor Rhino tank, I mean, the poor thing doesn't even know how to use his Roar or Charge effectively; don't even worry about the damage you're missing with Link because you're hiding behind a box waiting for your Energy Vampire gimp to pay out. What? Oh the Nova just killed it? Well, that's okay, the room is clear now so you can scamper around for the drops and go cower in the next room. Yes, that's right, go pour some more ammo into the next sponge while watching your cell's life bars and slapping Well and Vamp on target opportunities as they pop up. And don't you worry about the other Tenno completely missing the point of 'shoot this target don't shoot that target' tactics. You know you did a good job out there, and that's all that matters. You're a Superstar!!"

 

[holyicon]

I love trinity the way she is now. Especially energy vampire's changes.

People who hate EV after the patch, please read my post carefully.

In my opinion, trinity is a support frame, so she will be godlike when she has reliable teammate who fit other role.

EV  give a chance for your teammate to not focusing gain energy from killing/shooting certain enemies.

They can leisurely do whatever they role need to do, no need worry about search energy.

The radius is okay, especially in defense, survival, mobile defense. It is 25 meters. Highest of any damaging ultimate. If you think this is not enough, give stretch mod to your trin.

Tick slowly? I don't really mind this, because with streamline and focus, do you know that you got 32 energy at the first tick for 35 energy cost? with energy siphon, you almost feel that you don't waste energy at all. This also give all of your teammate free energy. 

For the most important thing,  I see many people feel that energy vampire kill their host easily, but the new Well of Lifehelps here. Do you know if you cast EV, then WoL at the enemy, EV will take % from enemy's base health, not the one which multiply by 10x. With this combo, even my nova teammate spam her ultimate, mol prime, the enemy won't down easily, esp the enemy is heavy/ancient/etc. 

With this combo, when EV is wear off, you can recast it again, so you only need 1 enemy for maxing all of your teammate energy forever (not let enemy dying).

People should learn to avoid shooting enemy with energy vampire, that is what every people need to do. 4 people in a squad even can take a sit to get max energy from 1 enemy if they don't shoot the enemy at all while old EV can't do this.

Link may be needed to be reworked, because I don't use this skill anymore. WoL only used for give 10x health to enemy and please don't change it, this works well for EV. WoL should give ammo/others rather than health because we have our Blessing. 

For closing words, I can give my teammate Blessing for invicibility almost all the time because I easily maxed my energy, and at the same time maxed all my teammate's energy as well.

I'm sorry for  the grammatical error and bad English.

 

[TL:DR]

Always Cast Blessing with Link.

Always Cast Well of Life with Energy Vampire.

done.

[GTG3000]

Wait... that she ought to rely on Link and that makes up for the lack of armour -or- that she aught to be papery even while Nu Link is up?

To be clear, I have no issues with Trin's armour. To me it's just a stat that play-style and awareness can overcome. This can be done with a Redirection, maybe even a Vigor and a little prudence.

But in my experience, anything over Lv90 (I.E. any and all of my Alerts) is a bad time for Nu Link. On the occasions when I was testing it, having Nu Link up was functionally no better than Drop-Kicking past a group of Grineer and waiting for Shade to Ghost me before rezzing a buddy.

{Skip below if looks TL:DR}

So this "reminder" as you called it. Is that a finger shaking at me? Saying, "Hold on little lady! Don't go thinking you can actually FIGHT this battle! You're just a healer ... ooh and by the way. One of those 'tricks' you had to stay alive long enough to actually do that? Well now we're going to classify it as an offensive ability so we can justify stripping it of the function we'd rather you be using your Blessing for. Though don't get your hopes up, it still only does superfluous damage, yeah, not enough to actually WANT to stand there and take the requisite punishment needed for it to add up to anything. Really, use Blessing on top of that. Really just use Blessing all the time. In fact, use Blessing so much that the fact link does anything at all really shouldn't matter. I mean, it's an extra 75 (adjusted for whatever mods you run) energy right? That's a small price to pay every (adjusted for whatever mods you run) seconds of not getting knocked down as often and a Pink Floyd style laser show, right? Just, get back in the kitchen, let the poor Rhino tank, I mean, the poor thing doesn't even know how to use his Roar or Charge effectively; don't even worry about the damage you're missing with Link because you're hiding behind a box waiting for your Energy Vampire gimp to pay out. What? Oh the Nova just killed it? Well, that's okay, the room is clear now so you can scamper around for the drops and go cower in the next room. Yes, that's right, go pour some more ammo into the next sponge while watching your cell's life bars and slapping Well and Vamp on target opportunities as they pop up. And don't you worry about the other Tenno completely missing the point of 'shoot this target don't shoot that target' tactics. You know you did a good job out there, and that's all that matters. You're a Superstar!!"

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean, and that's exactly how it looked like, and how it feels like. New link is, quite literally, a result of half the forum yelling "Trinity is a better tank than Rhino! Put her back into kitchen!", and Scott, listening. I'm not saying that he shouldn't listen to forums, but that he should have thought about role and use the warframe he modifies already has.

Trinity is paper-thin, because she isn't a tank, Trinity doesn't have aggro because she isn't a tank. That's whatevery single person saying "Old link was OP" misses - she had an ability to let her survive and resurrect, as well as battle some tough guys because that's what team needs. She didn't have damage, she didn't have CC, and she was... Alright. She was fun to play, she was versatile, she could stay onpar with others when it was needed.

And now... Well, she is a better support, that's for sure. Her skills have synergy up to the point of "you don't cast this skill without that one", and that's sort of nice, even though it means that now her skills are one step from being one skill. Scott thought that she needed damage, and EV and Link got changed. Scott thought she needed CC and that's what WoL and EV do now. The only problem with that all is that Trinity never needed either really. You played Trinity and you were supporting. You could run up and hug an ancient if you wanted to give him some damage, but you could never outdamage any damagging frame, or control crowds better than a cc frame. You could take more damage than tanky frames, but unlike IS, Link never drew aggro. It was there for you as a pricey survivability, and it worked really well, even though it would be OP if any other frame but a support had it.

And now... Nu Link is useless. 75% isn't worth it when you can have Blessing, and a Shade offers a much better counter-CC, since with link you still get thrown arouund. New functions of other skills make her easier to play, but that doesn't make sitting in a corner with your pall WoL-ed battery any more fun.

But what's worse is that, judging by the community hot topics, out of this thread the message that was taken is "support isn't dealing enuf damage!"

[holyicon]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean, and that's exactly how it looked like, and how it feels like. New link is, quite literally, a result of half the forum yelling "Trinity is a better tank than Rhino! Put her back into kitchen!", and Scott, listening. I'm not saying that he shouldn't listen to forums, but that he should have thought about role and use the warframe he modifies already has.

Trinity is paper-thin, because she isn't a tank, Trinity doesn't have aggro because she isn't a tank. That's whatevery single person saying "Old link was OP" misses - she had an ability to let her survive and resurrect, as well as battle some tough guys because that's what team needs. She didn't have damage, she didn't have CC, and she was... Alright. She was fun to play, she was versatile, she could stay onpar with others when it was needed.

And now... Well, she is a better support, that's for sure. Her skills have synergy up to the point of "you don't cast this skill without that one", and that's sort of nice, even though it means that now her skills are one step from being one skill. Scott thought that she needed damage, and EV and Link got changed. Scott thought she needed CC and that's what WoL and EV do now. The only problem with that all is that Trinity never needed either really. You played Trinity and you were supporting. You could run up and hug an ancient if you wanted to give him some damage, but you could never outdamage any damagging frame, or control crowds better than a cc frame. You could take more damage than tanky frames, but unlike IS, Link never drew aggro. It was there for you as a pricey survivability, and it worked really well, even though it would be OP if any other frame but a support had it.

And now... Nu Link is useless. 75% isn't worth it when you can have Blessing, and a Shade offers a much better counter-CC, since with link you still get thrown arouund. New functions of other skills make her easier to play, but that doesn't make sitting in a corner with your pall WoL-ed battery any more fun.

But what's worse is that, judging by the community hot topics, out of this thread the message that was taken is "support isn't dealing enuf damage!"

 

+1.

[[DE]Megan]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, in the Hot Topics this week I've posted your feedback.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/116297-october-4th-community-hot-topics/

 

Awaiting Scott's thoughts!