Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[D.P.]

Overheat: Fire skin is now an offensive power rather than a defensive power. Reduced damage reduction and upped the damage output. Warframe strength mods now modify the damage

 

well there went the last thing i enjoyed about ember......theres no reason to even use her now

it feels like world on fire is the only thing that will be worth using at this point and its only good against level 50 and lower mobs... so yea ill pass on the one trick pony

Edited September 6, 2013 by D.P.

[Taihus]

Yeah, overheat and WoF need some differentiation, badly. The main problem is that all of Ember's abilities do fire damage, and simply deal the damage in different shapes. There are no other frames which do exactly the same thing with every single ability, not even poor old Volt. I've been proposing some possible changes to Fireball https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102696-fireball-idea/ and Fire Blast https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102702-say-bye-to-fire-blast-say-hi-to-firestorm/ to also make them more interesting and different. Fireball in particular I feel is a gimped ability not only because it was weak up until this point, but because it doesn't feel as fun to use as the other direct damage abilities. Shuriken goes slice and sprays blood around, volt's ability goes zap and chains, but Fireball just goes "poof" and hangs in midair. Damage isn't the only problem, feel and appearance are also lacking.

Generally, though, Ember simply needs more variety in her abilities. Not just variety in terms of fire damage style, but something other than just fire damage. Her description states that she's crowd control, and the ability changes I'm proposing match that description.

[pinkelf]

I love ember, but due to her not being useful in most situations or dying really fast, I don't use her very often at all. Even Nyx is used more than her, and Nyx isn't very good either.

[Aure7]

Please merge overheat and world on fire into one ability like you did with rhino. Then give ember an ability of some kind that would make her a little more useful on other factions, like armor melting of some sort?

More on this in topic I've created a while ago https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76677-reworking-ember-abilities/#entry836308

 

If overheat will be kept, can we have hot air effects around ember? Like as if she heated the air around her and you could see it bending light?


I am crossing my fingers, hoping that every comment will be noticed by the developers.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Aure7

[TheGambler_BR]

Actual Gameplay opinion:

 

First power: Fireball

DoT is applied properly, damage per tick is the same as impact damage. Max rank ticks for 266 against level 28 chargers. 400 against runners and leapers (regardless of level) - but only 65 against level 26 ancients. That is LOW, painfully low, considering infested have a 2x fire damage multiplier. Need I remind you Ash's shuriken deals 500 serrated blade damage x2? That is 1500 damage to infested PER SHURIKEN, a potential 3'000 damage against the very same enemy type Ember's supposed to be specialized in taking out. And without any DoT shenanigans. Need I remind you guys DoT is supposed to deal more damage than burst in the long run?

It also doesn't "paint" the floor/walls anymore. Enemies walk through Fireball's fire like it was nothing.

It does have AoE, though, and sometimes it ignores armor altogether.

 

Curiosities: It rewards skill greatly. Hitting a fireball at a vulnerable spot deals double tick damage.

 

Suggestions: Make it tick faster, and/or for more damage. Make the projectile track the target upon cast (DoT on floor is what Fireblast does). Perhaps an armor reduction effect, "Melting" away the target's armor?

 

Second Power: Overheat

 

Damage: seems to deal 350 damage (rank 2) against any infested (ancients included), which makes me think it ignores armor. If so, would be a good addition. Needs testing against grineer and corpus.

Damage reduction must still be calculated - to come later on.

Lasts 15 seconds at rank 2, without continuity mods.

 

Third Power: Fire Blast

 

No utility AT ALL, as it was before. Lays a "wall" of fire that can be walked - and shot - through normally. Deals 200 fire damage, susceptible to armor reductions, and only when they're on the ring of fire. Being inside is just like being outside - no damage.

Applies no DoT at all.

So, all in all, low damage, coupled with stationary and no utility. Useless power

 

Suggestions: STUN enemies caught by the fire ring. Add DoT while INSIDE the ring. Increase the damage, as it behaves like Burst damage instead of DoT.

 

Fourth Power: World on Fire

 

Unchanged overall. Bug that prevented targeting of more than one target has been fixed, apparently.

Damage is still pathetically low, requires almost its entire duration to kill a single ancient at level 30. Tries to apply fire-based stun animations, but they last much less than a second.

 

Suggestions: Draw inspiration from this, please. Greatly increase damage, make it ignore armor, add stun.

 

 

Overall comments: There is NO synergies between her powers.

Her new fireball does respectable damage against low-level infested, but suffers greatly from armor reduction as does the rest of her powers, bar Overheat.

Her old Overheat allowed Ember to fully utilize her arsenal, as it expected her to be in the fray. It allowed hit-and-run tactics that are currently no longer viable.

Her Fire Blast has been fixed, but still doesn't offer much to the table. REQUIRES a stun-type power for it to deal any sort of damage, because of its position-based, weak damage.

Her World on Fire has seen no changes, which is a shame. Damage suffers from armor, as does all of her other powers. Targeting seems to be fixed, though, so she can now damage three(!) enemies at the same time.

 

Perhaps, with the oncoming damage and armor changes, she might see some usefulness again. But as it stands now, she is WEAK. She's a pure-damage frame with no utilities, and, sadly, NO DAMAGE EITHER.

[dragonslayer667]

thx for ruining this frame all the powers are the same. all the powers being damage is useless.

still only going to use world on fire and fireblast. fireblast might be usefull now but world on fire is still S#&$.

now ember being a caster frame is fine but she is slow has no shields no armor and middle line health. so why are all her abilities requiring her to get so damned close.

overheat was the only thing that made this frame any good. who cares if her being a tank frame was intended or not. if its the only thing that makes her playable then leave it as it was.

 

 

and i just love how this thread gives no numbers. we just supposed to guess? guess you dont want to tell us how @(*()$ useless she really is now.

Edited September 6, 2013 by dragonslayer667

[Sahfiel]

Long-time player, first time poster. :D

 

Ember always came across as the 'caster who was able to cut it as a close-in scrapper. The mix of tanking and damage was the entire appeal of the frame, for me. Without Overheat, I probably wouldn't have bothered rebuying the frame after the account reset.

 

(Yes, the damage abilities scale poorly. No, I wouldn't use Ember for a T3 Defense run. She's a fun time when we go running mid-level missions for resources and etc.)

 

Nova and Excalibur are both more appealing if I want a frame whose abilities are all offense. So - if DE intends to stick to making Ember a 'damage only' caster, I'm going to save myself some annoyance and switch to those.

This, a million times this. If all the other posts go flying over your head DE, please read this one. Ember's niche may have originally been intended to be different but you introduced other frames which fulfill that role better and so Ember's proper position is the adaptive one we are now used to.

 

Extra Credit. It is a great series.

It is meant to educate game developers. There is an episode that deals with a trust developers are supposed to respect between themselves and the players. A game's difficulty and balancing, as it were, is supposed to be consistent. You aren't supposed to make arbitrary changes just because you feel things are not working out as they are. Please, view their channel and revisit this rework. I will be playing magicka and gw2 in the meanwhile. I totes dig how they are consistent in each gameplay element's purpose and use.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sahfiel

[AlienOvermind]

Ember is meant to be a caster frame

Stop this, really. Why Rhino have attack buff? He's supposed to be a tank, so he needs only def/aggro skills. Why Saryn have aggro skill? She's meant to be a DD, so she needs only damage dealing abilities. Sounds good? I don't think so.

Ember is meant to be fun frame. And all other frames are supposed to be fun too. So, abilities are meant to be be variative and fun. That's why new Ember's skills are complete fail.

Edited September 7, 2013 by AlienOvermind

[MikeOQuinn]

Many people have said similar things, but I'll add my voice to the crowd.

 

Most, if not all, frames have at least one utility (non-offense) ability. Rhino has Iron Skin, Saryn has Molt, Volt has speed, Loki has Decoy and Switch Teleport, Ash has Teleport and Smoke Bomb, Vauban has Bounce, Nova has Wormhole, Excalibur has Super Jump, Frost has Snow Globe. I know I'm missing some, but that's what leaps to mind.

 

Ember's was Overheat. All the rest of her skills were (and still are) smaller versions of her ultimate.

 

Fireball - The World on Fire that you throw at an enemy that burns in a small radius

 

Overheat - The World on Fire that doesn't reach as far, but provides a small amount of damage reduction (if numbers from this thread are to be believed, <50% with max Overheat and max Focus)

 

Fire Blast - The World on Fire that does big immediate damage, and a small DoT that stays where it was cast

 

World on Fire - The World on Fire that does big damage, but follows you around, so you have to get close enough to enemies for them to hit you for it to be effective.

 

This just doesn't seem like a fun frame to play. Note that I'm not saying "anymore". I enjoyed playing Ember very situationally (low-level Infested in large hordes), but in comparison to other caster frames like Saryn and Nova, she pales. Her damage scaling isn't anywhere near useful in later levels, and she doesn't have the utility that other frames to do help the team out or to keep her alive long enough for her less-than-stellar damage output to make up for itself.

 

I'm not advocating reverting Overheat to its pre-nerf state. I'd honestly prefer to see her completely reworked. Currently, her role is PBAoE, but she has neither the utility nor survivability to make that viable. Her damaging abilities do not scale at all - Nova and Saryn are decent examples of caster frames whose damage output can keep up with higher-end content, because they scale well with the number of enemies present, or with the relative survivability of the enemies.

 

Perhaps a starting point would be to make Overheat increase speed for the duration, so that rather than DR-tanking, she can speed-tank as she waits for enemies to die.

 

 

 

... All of this may prove to be moot when Update 10 brings the damage/armor/elemental changes. A pure-nuke frame may be viable then. As it stands now, however, she just isn't.

[Dada_Meta]

I'm very disappointed after seeing this post… I was so excited after hearing Scott talking about a ember rework on the livestream, but this is just wrong, overheat is the only skill that makes Ember have any use at all outside of infested missions. You would think it should be clear to anyone that spends any time playing this game that damage is not why people pick the frames they do… its all about control over your environment and enemies. How can you call this a “rework” to get ember more play time and remove her only skill that scales at all the while giving her nothing but more damage that won't scale because everyone know the only thing that scales in this game is Armor ignore...I don't even know what to add but this “Rework” brings into question if DE’s is truly incompetent when it comes to understand what their game is truly about.

[Juvieus_Kaine]

I won't lie, I was going to write a very rude comment shouting at everyone voicing negative opinions on the change. Then I sat down, had a think, and came to a conclusion - Ember is a mess.

 

Think about it - she's a Fire caster with damage-based attacks for powers. Two of her powers encourage being fast and mobile and getting in close to do the hurt. But that makes no sense when she has base sprint speed, average health and shields and joint lowest armour in the game. The stats are just asking for trouble. So in essence she's not supposed to be a runner at all, yet two of her powers suggest she should.

So assuming you took her up as a runner, you'll have to add at least 2 stamina-based mods for running and pour points into fast attcks. But then Fireball contradicts this by being a static ground attack AoE. So there's no way you'd use this unless you absolutely must stop and knock some guys over.

 

So, first we need to understand her better role - runner/caster or static caster. Because being a bit of both is not making things mesh very well. Next would then be an idea of how to alter her powers.

For a static caster I'd probably suggest:

- Fireball gets explosion damage instead of fire damage

- Fireskin goes back to Overheat in only namesake: instead of reducing damage, she buffs elemental damage for the team. So it makes sense and doesn't replace Rhino's Roar, we can say it buffs fire and explosion damage. Affects Ember as well

- Fireblast could become something more defensive, like a wall of fire. Enemies passing through it take fire and DoT damage

- World on Fire can be some initial expolosion damage on activation with fire and DoT damage after effects, like a super version of Fireblast right now.

- Armour is increased to 50.

 

If we want her to become a mobile caster, I would suggest:

- Fireball gains explosion damage or stays as it is

- Fireskin gains a minor buff back to, say, 65% damage negation. Not tanky but not stupid-high as before (maxed out with maxed focus, I mean)

- Fireblast is changed to something else completely, No idea what, to be honest, but something that isn't a static AoE

- World on Fire is given a bigger AoE and has AoE damage targetting, not 3 per tick

- Speed is increased to 1.1 at least, but no faster than Loki.

 

 

I'm not a game designer but honestly, Ember needs some focus to sort out her playstyle. Of course these changes could be awesome when Update10 rolls out with the new damage/armour tables, but we don't know.

[MageMeat]

Yay. More fire damage, less utility.

At least make something guarantee a stun to counter-balance her lack of speed, tankiness and overall usefulness in a team setting.

[Datareaper]

Damage powers still dont scale into endgame, even with mods.

The changes nerf her survivability appropriately but do nothing to make her useful against level 70-100+ enemies.

Overheat and Fire Blast are still basically the same power, AOE fire damage.  Except one of them gives you damage reduction while the other is a mostly useless stationary ring of low damage fire.  The correct answer in any situation is Overheat.

 

Fire Blast should give allies staying in it a defensive or offensive benefit, that way the power becomes dual use and good for more than its damage.

[KaraLotus]

Yay!

[dragonslayer667]

Perhaps, with the oncoming damage and armor changes, she might see some usefulness again. But as it stands now, she is WEAK. She's a pure-damage frame with no utilities, and, sadly, NO DAMAGE EITHER.

even if the damage reworks make it so she can actually do damage she will still be weak with no utility at all. this was a huge step backwards even if 91% damage reduction from over heat seemed high once you look at the fact she is almost as slow as rhino and frost with no shields, barely any health, lowest armor and no crowd control(which is mentioned in her description) then you realized this was the only thing making her usable.

[dragonslayer667]

Please merge overheat and world on fire into one ability like you did with rhino. Then give ember an ability of some kind that would make her a little more useful on other factions, like armor melting of some sort?

More on this in topic I've created a while ago https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76677-reworking-ember-abilities/#entry836308

 

If overheat will be kept, can we have hot air effects around ember? Like as if she heated the air around her and you could see it bending light?

I am crossing my fingers, hoping that every comment will be noticed by the developers.

i actually kind of like combining overheat and world on fire since you kinda needed overheat to survive long enough for world on fire to do its thing but still thin that it needs to give a damned good amount fo dmg red seeing as how slow and squishy this frame is.

[solidsnak]

Kinda of weird reading through this series of posts, all I use on ember is world on fire.  Every other skill is unnecessary, running around setting 

enemies on fire and killing them in seconds is all that is needed.  

Maybe change that fireball to a flamethrower and change heatblast to a outward radiating firewall that sets foes on fire with initial damage

and probably find something else for the other ability since if you don't get hit you don't need armor, and even stopping to increase attack

damage is useless unless it boosts world on fire. 

[Turtleshellon]

Well I have always been a fan of the glass cannon build. It's ok that Ember can't tank as long as her offensive quality matches the decline. 

[Spargus]

GIVE ME BACK THE OLD OVERHEAT !! I beg you : give it back. That's not a good thing the way it is right now.
 

Please undo the change ! Oh my god please ! That's awful ! Ohhh the pain ! Ohh hell !

[dragonslayer667]

Stop this, really. Why Rhino have attack buff? He's supposed to be a tank, so he needs only def/aggro skills. Why Saryn have aggro skill? She's meant to be a DD, so she needs only damage dealing abilities. Sounds good? I don't think so.

Ember is meant to fun frame. And all other frames are supposed to be fun too. So, abilities are meant to be be variative and fun. That's why new Ember's skills are complete fail.

pure genius

[LoneWolf271]

I think the damage reduction of Overheat is now 40% (Tested by walking into those fire environmental hazards took 50 dmg without overheat, 30 dmg with). The range is still the same.

 

The only use I can think of for Fireblast is in infested defense if you cast it while standing on the pod, otherwise WoF does much more damage in a larger area and moves with you.

 

I'm not sure why Overheat is being turned into an offensive ability, Ember is so squishy why give her an ability that requires her to stand next to the target? Infested are the only faction that group up enough to get any benefit from the damage anyway. Three of her abilities do damage centered on her, she has to be in middle of the horde in order to maximize her damage, how can she do that if she gets shot to pieces?

 

My only suggestion for making WoF and overheat different would be to make overheat increase her sprint speed in addition to damage reduction, that way she can get in and out and allows a more aggressive play style. Also make it so that enemies only take damage or are stunned if they actually hit her with melee.

 

I would also suggest changing Fireblast so that it has some kind of CC ability (pushes back/stuns enemies) otherwise WoF does its job much better.

 

Oh and her event badge is (still) in the wrong place.

 

On the plus side I do like that fireball is now capable of killing things and takes some skill to aim properly.

 

As other posters have said, at the moment she is all damage with no utility. It will certainly be interesting to see how the upcoming damage reworks affect her.

[KudaGila]

to DE:

 

Release in each patchnotes exact numbers on skills and changes you made - why do your players have to figure it out on their own?

 

1) Ember's world in flames is being constantly stealth changed, at least release it's current stats, how many enemies it affects, what's it's dmg output, what mods you let to affect it.

2) Ember's overheat - what's the number on mitigation of dmg now, cause it feels like 5%, what's it's dmg output, range on it, is it affected by stretch?

3) Ember's fire blast - Why it's range is not affected by stretch anymore? Now it's range is as tiny as unleveled mod itself used to be. It is too short range, at least fix it so enemies get affected by the fire dmg and react to it.

 

Reason why ppl were using on ember Overheat skill is, her skills sometimes don't affect enemies, you ran into room full of enemies and used fireblast, they started to act like they are on fire, and after half sec, shot you down - fix it so they properly react to the fire.

 

And once again, start releasing actual numbers on the skills and changes you did. Every ember player knows you do stealth changes to her, like we remember with overheat when it got boosted too much and with full Focus mod, it mitigated over 100% dmg, resulted in healing players hp while they stood in poison.

[dragonslayer667]

Kinda of weird reading through this series of posts, all I use on ember is world on fire.  Every other skill is unnecessary, running around setting 

enemies on fire and killing them in seconds is all that is needed.  

Maybe change that fireball to a flamethrower and change heatblast to a outward radiating firewall that sets foes on fire with initial damage

and probably find something else for the other ability since if you don't get hit you don't need armor, and even stopping to increase attack

damage is useless unless it boosts world on fire. 

you must not take her to anything high level world on fire drops off in usefulness quickly and high level enemies can shred her

[Turbo_OJlEHb]

at a high level, 'overhit' wasn't tank skill, it was survival skill -_-

[DerTsu]

My suggestions for Fireball, which is pretty useless currently:

 

• Fireball could lower fire-resistance of the target, even increasing damage suffered by fire of the target.

• Fireball could burn the target's armor. Liquids don't block bullets like solids, after all.

• Fireball could project overheat to allies.