forced meta

[BubblesButternuts]

before you read a notice there have been some complaints about full stops and so on I have dyslexia so apologies now for any bad typing but that being said I put my texts through software and at the most part is readable but if this is too much effort for anyone to read don't insult someone for a disability and yes it is a disability I have been checked for it i also work with my doctor to try and force my brain to work differently to fight against it that being said don't leave comments about my spelling or grammar because I don't want to hear it all I want to read his comments and thoughts on how to deal with the total mess de left us in Fortuna so if you can't read just leave ignore my post and set me on ignore there is no need for insults

I'm using Frost most of all. If it’s solo it’s mostly ok. With any frame, the issue is when it’s high-level alert with a public group. That’s always a bit of a try-hard moment when you pub anything, but more so in Fortuna for high-level bounty and even more when the threat level goes further up.

Even at that, I have something like an ember that can barely take a hit, but even if I go as my saryn 600 so odd armour, she takes a heavy hit fast so as I said before low armour frame types are getting one shot. Maybe two shots, sometimes three, and then you're dead.

so like I said before cc tank seems to be the forced choice heavy armour and heavy on cc. it helps to cap the points without that heavy cc tank I will say it becomes a little bit try hard and even more so when I see almost everyone in my group die as soon as I stop any form of cc. the scaling for either armour strip or something is way off I can use any of those frames in sorties or arbitrations and they still survive no problem over and hour survival so why is it they get curb stomp within a couple shots? It feels like people are not understanding basic scaling or the mechanics.

Example, Cetus defence point in the middle, you could do almost any frame with not many issues so you could go, “Hey I want this frame because I want to play it in  Fortuna.” Defence points are spaced away from each other, mobs seem to shred any armour, including tank frames, so what do you do with defence or objectives that you have to capture and stay still standing right beside it to cap them? CC right? But to do that you also need a high armour type to take a hit while you’re standing still keeping that point. so Ember, low armour type, but ok cc keeping one of those things like the escort mission where it makes your armour pointless because you will be shot down so what do you do? You run around using your mobile cc but, get this, since you’re not capping that point it then becomes slower, but on top of that even if you cc the mobs can still grab that point even when you have them cc so what then? Ok, so you go Octavia, go invisible stand at that point she also has Taunt on her ball right? Great, fantastic, so if you look at it this way she can be a tank cc frame because her ball is taking the aggro and she is safe, right good cc now you could go to Nekros and say, well even with that 65 armour put health conversion on 3x 450 armour be 1.415 armour and that is with his despoil working great then add shield of shadows meaning they can take most of the aggro at your position but what about your teammates that offers them the limited cc compared to that frost this is basic mechanics and scaling that people are not considering when they go to a pub group or friends group they can let's say take an ember  because someone else takes a high cc tank frame like frost to help them stay alive at defence cap point perfect example is I went as all my frames to test them in group play with pubs all the pubs kept dying once I took frost cc of, when I used my cc as my frost  almost always my team stays alive and we get the bonus tell me were by taking any frame I want and my whole team dies and we struggle to get the mission completed at all compared to when you have to bring a high tank cc frame and get the bonus almost every time and all your teammates survive 

 

someone did post it is more of squad issue because there is no squad requirement now we lets try and fix by, for example, let's say because of the mission type a large cc frame is needed  like frost now games like ffxiv ie final fantasy a realm reborn a mmo has squad requirements one tank two damage one healer now this would work if and I mean a big if every frost had the same build but warframe lets you build your frames to your play style some frost is low in range but high damage there are others that are large in range but low in damage so even if there was squad based requirement that system would not  work so would have choice to either remove any form of potential free build path or balance the mechanics within that instance for the random builds or frames

now this is the starter planet for players the level of difficulty in Fortuna does not scale compared to any other mission with the corpus unless you compare it to the sorties now sorties have a high threat level were some frames are just better but to de credit even in sorties you use any frame with relative ease as long as you pay some form of attention to what your doing, now sorties have a high risk but high reward compare this to fortuna were it is a high risk but low reward, now to add on to what I mean by scaling is fortuna mobs at high-level alerts are at level 40 my ember gets killed rather fast within lets say a couple of hits but I do use her for her world on fire with the augment mod ok,also to make sure ember stays alive longer I use life strike or healing return on my mellee, so with all of that in fortuna as I have said she gets shut down very very fast but in lets say a corpu survival my ember can last over and hour with relative ease and go against mobs were their level is over 100, this is basic scaling added onto mechanics I can easly do the same level with my ember on a corpus defence mission simuler to fortuna since the spaceing of the defence points are so far apart the mechanics change drasticly,but the difference in mob level very clear level 40 mobs on fortuna bam my ember dies in a defence against the same mob type level 100 mobs and she is fine.

 

so now we look at the actual mechanics of the average defence type in Fortuna spaced apart at a long distance we could use an excavation as an example at low level we all generally activate as many as we can because the mobs do very low  amount of damage to us and also to the defence points, now when we want to do lets say an endurance run once we start to take a lot of damage we don't spread the excavations far apart sometimes we will do two but limit the range from each other than when it comes to the point were cannot spread as far apart from each other we only do one at a time, now funny thing is this is also scaling just mechanics seems to be ignored.

 

thanks to TheFatDrake for doing an edit for me being dyslexic is bad enough without me just typing what I feel and see from the top of my head thank you again TheFatDrake for the edit 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BubblesButternuts

[0_The_F00l]

I have had a bounty in which I had to kill x moas, then x drones and finally x everything in sight to finish (Eudico must have been real pissed off that time) . 

And though CC as a whole seems better as it makes long missions with chance to fail easier (excavation, container capture, coil defense) I don't think it's the Meta. 

I have used different kinds (Mesa, Nezha, loki, Octavia, rhino, Nova) and they all can manage fine. 

The enemies do hit super hard, but I think they fixed it with the last hot fix. 

 

[Zi-Sui]

Vitality + Arcane Guardian makes you able to take a lot more hits no matter the frame, except maybe Ivara. And while I haven't experimented on doing the hardest orb Fortuna bounty and get max wanted level after that, so far Fortuna mobs hit way weaker than Cetus mobs, which I have tested extensively.

I'm just glad tanks have more uses even though they're still pretty selfish frames and not necessary even for arbitrations. Tank frames don't help others survive except Gara and Trinity so they're selfish and not as useful for team play as you might think.

[den2k]

1 hour ago, GOOFBALL1 said:

I'm just glad tanks have more uses even though they're still pretty selfish frames and not necessary even for arbitrations. Tank frames don't help others survive except Gara and Trinity so they're selfish and not as useful for team play as you might think.

Unless they can CC extensively with weapons. They apply damage to most enemies and engage the highest concentrations / most dangerosu of them leaving breathing room for the party.

I played both tanks and non tanks and my teammates struggled a lot more when there were no tanks in the squad.

[BubblesButternuts]

4 hours ago, GOOFBALL1 said:

Vitality + Arcane Guardian makes you able to take a lot more hits no matter the frame, except maybe Ivara. And while I haven't experimented on doing the hardest orb Fortuna bounty and get max wanted level after that, so far Fortuna mobs hit way weaker than Cetus mobs, which I have tested extensively.

I'm just glad tanks have more uses even though they're still pretty selfish frames and not necessary even for arbitrations. Tank frames don't help others survive except Gara and Trinity so they're selfish and not as useful for team play as you might think.

we were testing it at the highest level there does seem to be a slight change in the last couple hotfixes though so maybe they fixed something 

[BubblesButternuts]

2 hours ago, den2k said:

Unless they can CC extensively with weapons. They apply damage to most enemies and engage the highest concentrations / most dangerosu of them leaving breathing room for the party.

I played both tanks and non tanks and my teammates struggled a lot more when there were no tanks in the squad.

i found if there was no tanky cc the bonus was almost always lost 😞

[BubblesButternuts]

4 hours ago, GOOFBALL1 said:

Vitality + Arcane Guardian makes you able to take a lot more hits no matter the frame, except maybe Ivara. And while I haven't experimented on doing the hardest orb Fortuna bounty and get max wanted level after that, so far Fortuna mobs hit way weaker than Cetus mobs, which I have tested extensively.

I'm just glad tanks have more uses even though they're still pretty selfish frames and not necessary even for arbitrations. Tank frames don't help others survive except Gara and Trinity so they're selfish and not as useful for team play as you might think.

vitality and arcane guardian would be nice but my frost already has over 800 now you could say it would be nice for a low armour frame but the scaling is not realy that great 20 percent of lets say of 65 armour sucks but you could do health conversion to increaes it past lets say my frost so but that would realy only work on frames like nekros or with a nekros in the party i like your idea but due to something stripping our amour on fortuna i dont know if that would work 

[BubblesButternuts]

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have had a bounty in which I had to kill x moas, then x drones and finally x everything in sight to finish (Eudico must have been real pissed off that time) . 

And though CC as a whole seems better as it makes long missions with chance to fail easier (excavation, container capture, coil defense) I don't think it's the Meta. 

I have used different kinds (Mesa, Nezha, loki, Octavia, rhino, Nova) and they all can manage fine. 

The enemies do hit super hard, but I think they fixed it with the last hot fix. 

 

you have to one mesa ok she is mid tier tank super high damage nezha tank pluss cc loki invis forces mellee also he has a clone for cc on mobs  so you could say cc rhino cc tank nova slow cc octavia cc also invis name one of those frames you just said that isnt either cc or tank 

Edited November 13, 2018 by BubblesButternuts

[Wind_Blade]

I can use every frame in fortuna for every actuals things.. i don't have any problems...

More effiency != IT'S ASKING META

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, BubblesButternuts said:

you have to one mesa ok she is mid tier tank super high damage nezha tank pluss cc loki invis forces mellee also he has a clone for cc on mobs  so you could say cc rhino cc tank nova slow cc octavia cc also invis name one of those frames you just said that isnt either cc or tank 

With that definition pretty much any frame will have a means to tank or CC ,

I dont really know any frame that can neither CC nor Tank (ability based or otherwise), its usually one or the other if its going to be any use.

Do you have any specific frame you are using that is causing you some issues? i see you mentioned frost but that is pretty tanky ... and has decent CC capability if you build him right, not sure what you are trying to say.

[BubblesButternuts]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

With that definition pretty much any frame will have a means to tank or CC ,

I dont really know any frame that can neither CC nor Tank (ability based or otherwise), its usually one or the other if its going to be any use.

Do you have any specific frame you are using that is causing you some issues? i see you mentioned frost but that is pretty tanky ... and has decent CC capability if you build him right, not sure what you are trying to say.

I'm using frost most of all if its solo its mostly ok with any frame the issue mostly when its high level alert with a public group that's always a bit of a try hard moment when you pub anything but more so in fortune for high level bounty and even more when the threat level goes further up, but even at that have something like an ember that can barely take a hit, but even if I go as my saying 600 so odd armour she takes a heavy hit fast so as I said before low armour frame types are getting one shot, maybe two shots sometimes three than dead so like I said before cc tank seems to be the forced choice heavy armour and heavy on cc and it helps to cap the points without that heavy cc tank I will say it becomes a little bit try hard and even more so when I see almost everyone in my group die as soon as I stop any  form of cc the scaling for either armour strip or something is way of one its venues two I can use any of those frames in sorties or arbitrations and they still survive no problem over and hour survival so why is it they get curb stomp within a couple shots it feels like people are not understanding basic scaling or the mechanics example Cetus defence point in the middle you could do almost any frame with not much issues so you could go hey I want this forum because I want to play it Fortuna defence points spaced away from each other mobs seem to shed any form, including tank frames, so what do you do with defence or objectives that you have to cope and stay still standing right beside it  to cap them cc right but to do that you also need a high armour type to take a hit while your standing still keeping that point so ember low armour type, but ok cc keeping one of those things like the escort mission where it takes your armour pointless because you will be shot down so what do you do, you run around using your mobile cc but get this since your not coping that point it then becomes slower, but on top of that even if you cc the mobs can still grab that point even when you have them cc so what then? Ok, so you do activate go invisible stand at that point she also has Taunt on her ball right great, fantastic so if you look at it this way she can be a tank cc frame because her ball is taking the Agra and she is safe, right good cc now you could go to nekros and say, well even with that 65 armour put health conversion on 3x 450 armour be 1.415 armour and that is with his despoil working great then add shiled of shadows meaning they can take most of the Agra at your position but what about your teammates that offers them them limited cc compared to that frost or active this is basic mechanics and scaling that people are not considering when they go to a pub group or friends group they can let's say take an empire because someone else takes a high cc tank frame like frost to help them stay alive at defence camp points perfect example is I went as all my frames to test them in group play with pubs all the pubs kept dying once I took a frost for that high tank cc almost always my team  stays alive and we get the bonus tell me were by taking any frame I want and my whole team dies and we struggle to get the mission completed at all compared to when you have to bring a high tank cc frame and get the bonus almost every time and all your teammates survive is not any form of a forced meta 

Edited November 13, 2018 by BubblesButternuts

[TheFatDrake]

1 hour ago, BubblesButternuts said:

Ok, hope this helps. Sorry, it’s dyslexia, and was just throwing out stuff as soon as they came to mind.

I'm using Frost most of all. If it’s solo it’s mostly ok. With any frame the issue is when it’s high level alert with a public group. That’s always a bit of a try hard moment when you pub anything, but more so in Fortuna for high level bounty and even more when the threat level goes further up.

Even at that I have something like an ember that can barely take a hit, but even if I go as my saying 600 so odd armor, she takes a heavy hit fast so as I said before low armor frame types are getting one shot. Maybe two shots, sometimes three, and then you're dead.

so like I said before cc tank seems to be the forced choice heavy armor and heavy on cc. it helps to cap the points without that heavy cc tank I will say it becomes a little bit try hard and even more so when I see almost everyone in my group die as soon as I stop any form of cc. the scaling for either armor strip or something is way of one its venues two I can use any of those frames in sorties or arbitrations and they still survive no problem over and hour survival so why is it they get curb stomp within a couple shots? It feels like people are not understanding basic scaling or the mechanics.

Example, Cetus defense point in the middle, you could do almost any frame with not much issues so you could go, “Hey I want this forum because I want to play it Fortuna.” Defense points are spaced away from each other, mobs seem to shed any armor, including tank frames, so what do you do with defense or objectives that you have to cope and stay still standing right beside it to cap them? CC right? But to do that you also need a high armor type to take a hit while you’re standing still keeping that point. so Ember, low armor type, but ok cc keeping one of those things like the escort mission where it makes your armor pointless because you will be shot down so what do you do? You run around using your mobile cc but, get this, since you’re not capping that point it then becomes slower, but on top of that even if you cc the mobs can still grab that point even when you have them cc so what then? Ok, so you go Ivara, go invisible stand at that point she also has Taunt on her ball right? Great, fantastic, so if you look at it this way she can be a tank cc frame because her ball is taking the aggro and she is safe, right good cc now you could go to Nekros and say, well even with that 65 armor put health conversion on 3x 450 armor be 1.415 armor and that is with his despoil working great then add shield of shadows meaning they can take most of the aggro at your position but what about your teammates that offers them the limited cc compared to that frost or active this is basic mechanics and scaling that people are not considering when they go to a pub group or friends group they can let's say take an empire because someone else takes a high cc tank frame like frost to help them stay alive at defense camp points perfect example is I went as all my frames to test them in group play with pubs all the pubs kept dying once I took a frost for that high tank cc almost always my team stays alive and we get the bonus tell me were by taking any frame I want and my whole team dies and we struggle to get the mission completed at all compared to when you have to bring a high tank cc frame and get the bonus almost every time and all your teammates survive is not any form of a forced meta.

Hopefully this helps a bit.

[BubblesButternuts]

13 minutes ago, TheFatDrake said:

Hopefully this helps a bit.

it did thanks and I put credit for you editing it for  me thanks 🙂 /

[Teliko_Freedman]

This is just a band aid, but it had helped a bit.

A Max rank Adaptation Warframe mod, as long as you spend a bit of time blocking first.

[BubblesButternuts]

14 minutes ago, Teliko_Freedman said:

This is just a band aid, but it had helped a bit.

A Max rank Adaptation Warframe mod, as long as you spend a bit of time blocking first.

yeah that might be a not bad mod for some of the frames thank you but it does generally not work for the rest of them 

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, BubblesButternuts said:

-snip- 

Yeah man the enemies hit hard, that's why it's challenging and fun and should not be attempted unprepared. 

Your squad dies cause they are unprepared, you have no obligation to carry them, this is more of a squad setup problem not an enemy problem and goes beyond Fortuna, you enter a pub match you prepare for disappointment. 

Yes some frames are better at Fortuna content than others and if you don't "want" to use them then you will face difficulties after a certain level. As with any other content some frames are just more suitable. 

Ember is just poor at extended content and should be used as a pure CC frame beyond lvl 40. You should never stop using fire quake and accelerant.

And you have highlighted very specific mission types in which a CC frame will clearly be better. 

It's not Meta if there are more than 20 frames which can work well in my opinion. 

 

[Kyenhael]

19 hours ago, GOOFBALL1 said:

Vitality + Arcane Guardian makes you able to take a lot more hits no matter the frame, except maybe Ivara. And while I haven't experimented on doing the hardest orb Fortuna bounty and get max wanted level after that, so far Fortuna mobs hit way weaker than Cetus mobs, which I have tested extensively.

I'm just glad tanks have more uses even though they're still pretty selfish frames and not necessary even for arbitrations. Tank frames don't help others survive except Gara and Trinity so they're selfish and not as useful for team play as you might think.

This is simply not true. I can go in an solo anything with Harrow on the plains and one get one shot if I get careless. In Fortuna I get one shot more often than any other mission I can go and play right now. It's so bad I've changed to Oberon or Octavia just so I can stay alive without having to focus 100% on surviving. Even while bullet jumping I've been one shot, and keep in mind corpus don't use hit-scan weapons, so their aim seems to be pretty good. Add to that the chain CC that many of the new Corpus units have, which most PoE mobs don't have, and you have a recipe for disaster for anything kind of squishy.

 

Also, don't forget Venus is one of the first planets players will encounter in when they start the game. Do we really want to throw that much power against them? I was being one shot by level 40 mobs ffs. That's way too much damage. If you don't believe me, you can check out my VODs on twitch (shameless plug) and you will see what I am talking about. Now that I've been playing Oberon it's a lot less frustrating, though making people bring certain frames is not a good idea in a game that promotes customization.

 

Edit: Also I forgot to mention random magnetic procs....

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kyenhael

[den2k]

4 hours ago, Kyenhael said:

It's so bad I've changed to Oberon or Octavia just so I can stay alive without having to focus 100% on surviving. Even while bullet jumping I've been one shot, and keep in mind corpus don't use hit-scan weapons, so their aim seems to be pretty good. Add to that the chain CC that many of the new Corpus units have, which most PoE mobs don't have, and you have a recipe for disaster for anything kind of squishy.

Wow, that's so so bad... having to actually prepare for battle instead of going gung-ho and winning without problems. What sorcery is this?

[iHaku]

7 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's not Meta if [...] in my opinion. 

"Meta" has a pretty clear definition for what we're discussing here. it's simply what is best to use at each specific level of play (in the eyes of the community that is above or at that difficulty). "any approach to a game that transcends or operates outside of the prescribed rules of the game"

it's simply what players discovered how you should play if you want to be efficient / have an easyer time.

 

just because fortuna is new, dont think that it's the be all end all content. it's just another open world area exactly like cetus, altho as many have already experienced, much more difficult.

because of this, some frames will automaticly be better in that content then others. thats simply how warframe works, they are different and specialised in their kits, just like in a solo mission frost is better at defending cryopods then, let's say, titania is. Or how volt is better at farming capture missions then frost is.

that's not saying that you -need- to play the most optimal way that people figured out how to play, but the possibility t just play whats best suited for wahtever you're doing is always there and if you have trouble doing it your way, then that's simply something to consider and not a force in playing the meta.

Forcing the meta whould mean that the game is simply not allowing you to play whatever you want in the first place. An example whould be how in League of legends, you're supposed to pick one of the 5 roles when you match up for the game. those 5 roles are forced by the game instead of people deciding how to setup their team (for public matchmade games).

Edited November 14, 2018 by iHaku

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, iHaku said:

 - snip snip - 

Uhhh... Any reason you have quoted me? I mean you have said pretty much exactly what I said. 

Only difference I see is our opinion of what of Meta implies. 

[iHaku]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Uhhh... Any reason you have quoted me? I mean you have said pretty much exactly what I said. 

Only difference I see is our opinion of what of Meta implies. 

so then you do know why i quoted you. just because you got quoted, doesnt mean that my entire post is directed at you.

second paragraph onwards was @OP

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, iHaku said:

so then you do know why i quoted you. just because you got quoted, doesnt mean that my entire post is directed at you.

second paragraph onwards was @OP

My bad, but I normally add "now for the original question" after a quote to clarify once I am done, so... We cool, just thought the whole thing was directed at me. 

[Zanchak]

Or you go Mag.. and take your mrs in her nova, and your clanmate in his rev.. and just go to town on them.

[Kyenhael]

2 hours ago, den2k said:

Wow, that's so so bad... having to actually prepare for battle instead of going gung-ho and winning without problems. What sorcery is this?

Prepare? I just equipped Oberon and ignored most of the trouble.Or Octavia cheese it. I can do it. It's just not fun to be constantly CCd and downed for as long as these bounties take (they can take a while) for the very small rewards. These mobs would be fine at new raid modes that gave great rewards. For your everyday relic, set mod, rep grind, and other less than special loot, it's just not balanced. 

 

[BubblesButternuts]

my friends consider me to be  a minmaxer I also use the right tool for the right job on average but de even boast themselves any mission can be done with any frame so yes defence frost lets sayrn with speed nova and to top it off a trinity boom legit awesome team but lets say I want to play as a Loki in a defence mission I could use him in a grineer or corpus one with my 4 to disarm to help my team not get shot and then I can go invisible that same logic has been applied to Cetus also the scaling as I said before since its earth but same can not be said for fortuna the damage output of the mobs on high tier alerts or threat level #gta stars or it could a mix of the mass cc plus the threat level and also what that other person said something about hit scan or something maybe when they made fortuna and all the new mechanics for it they didn't consider all of it coz damn they do have a cracking cracking shot it kinda makes me laugh when i can have a my ember in a survival corpus mission for over and hour with relative ease and she gets her booty smashed in fortuna with a couple of shots