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My concern once Orbs can be fought


Ceryk
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The only real concern I have ever had with Fortuna has been the Orbs. Adding more endgame content is much needed, but I am very worried it's going to turn into yet another boring Meta Mess. DE has been pretty good about removing the worst of the really bad Meta garbage from the main body of the game and there is no long any need for any specifically required from for any mission type between adding more options or changing what started the nonsense to begin with. But thus far, they haven't been able to do that with any of the big content. Trials were boring because of the required Meta play style, so no one played them. Eidolons have better incentive to engage, but the Meta has made what should be an exciting and epic battle dull and more tedious than anything else because you have to play prescribed frames/schools in a prescribed way with a very prescribed build using prescribed weapons. I certainly understand people wanting to win and all of that, but it gets to the point where you either play the enforced Meta or you don't get to do the content at all. And I am really concerned we will end up seeing that happen again with Orbs since it has happened every time they have released a major piece of endgame content.

Edited by Ceryk
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1 minute ago, Ceryk said:

The only real concern I have ever had with Fortuna has been the Orbs. Adding more end game content is much needed, but I am very worried it's going to turn into yet another boring Meta Mess. DE has been pretty good about removing the worst of the Meta garbage from the main body of the game and there is no long any need for any specifically required from for any mission type between adding more options or changing what started the nonsense to begin with. But thus far, they haven't been able to do that with any of the big content. Trials were boring because of the required Meta play style, so no one played them. Eidolons have better incentive to engage, but the Meta has made what should be an exciting and epic battle dull and more tedious than anything else because you have to play prescribed frames/schools in a prescribed way with a very prescribed build using prescribed weapons. I certainly understand people wanting to win and all of that, but it gets to the point where you either play the enforced Meta or you don't get to do the content at all. And I am really concerned we will end up seeing that happen again with Orbs since it has happened every time they have released a major piece of endgame content.

You dont have to do Eidolons as a meta build if you don't want to.

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1 minute ago, Ceryk said:

And I am really concerned we will end up seeing that happen again with Orbs since it has happened every time they have released a major piece of endgame content.

Yeah, I'm just praying we don't have to baby lures (or something similar) around, or be limited to Corpus Amps and Operator Mode to make them vulnerable.

I'd be more okay with weakspots that only pop up if you do something specific to the Orb itself, or to something in the map around it.

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43 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Yeah, I'm just praying we don't have to baby lures (or something similar) around, or be limited to Corpus Amps and Operator Mode to make them vulnerable.

I'd be more okay with weakspots that only pop up if you do something specific to the Orb itself, or to something in the map around it.

 

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Yeah I absolutely hate having to gather lures and use amps to break shields and such. Hopefully we'll get a good ol fashioned boss with a ton of health and satisfying visual feedback when shooting it, I don't mind a few invulnerable phases but nothing that requires operator or amps to remove

I'm fine with Amps because they need to serve a purpose in the game. But the Lures were certainly annoying and I hope we don't see a repeat of that sort of thing sort of mechanic.

But I'm more concerned with the other things that result in players enforcing meta. Harrow and Limbo shouldn't be able to negate the phase where DE intended you to go into Operator mode and phase out to avoid damage. Chroma should not be able to one shot limbs. That is more of the concerns I have because those are the sort of things that result in annoying Meta gameplay. These fights should feel epic and meaningful, not dull and tedious, part of which is a direct result of DE not stepping in and correcting the design flaws that allow the worst sorts of Meta gameplay to exist. It's probably too late for the Eidolons, or at least until there is enough endgame content that the backlash of fixing those fights wouldn't matter, but I certainly hope they learned from the past and did something different with the Orbs that prevents a Meta from forming around it, or at least minimizing it.

Edited by Ceryk
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I kill eidolons with my friends using increasingly obsure measures. mote amps, with full loki squad, Grakata variants only, no health booster, dragon key etc. its all about your intent and your company. There is no meta in warframe for Myself or my clansmen, because we refuse to use what "works" over what we enjoy. meta is a non-issue in this game if you have a good group of friends. 

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26 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

And you missed the point.

Absolutely missed the point. But not only that, the idea that everyone is in circumstances to avoid the Eidolon Meta is extremely unrealistic.

16 minutes ago, Slamminslug said:

I kill eidolons with my friends using increasingly obsure measures. mote amps, with full loki squad, Grakata variants only, no health booster, dragon key etc. its all about your intent and your company. There is no meta in warframe for Myself or my clansmen, because we refuse to use what "works" over what we enjoy. meta is a non-issue in this game if you have a good group of friends. 

Good for you. That, however, requires the right company. Circumstances not everyone has. I have very few friends that play this game. Those I do have (and myself) have been playing the game for so long that we can't play the game all the time to avoid burn out and more often than not, when we aren't all taking breaks at the same time. So we have to rely on public groups. As do many other people who may be in similar circumstances, in small clans where a lot of time maybe they are the only one on who is in the mood for X content, etc.. Not everyone has the luxury of always having access to like minded people.

Edited by Ceryk
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10 minutes ago, Toppien said:

i just want to fight a boss without the need of one shot builds, cuz its boring

That is one of my biggest annoyances with the Eidolon Meta. We need damage gating on big targets like that to prevent one shot kills. Takes what should be an epic fight with everyone fighting tooth and nail down to something incredibly dull.

Edited by Ceryk
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2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

And you missed the point.

You're being unrealistic. When something is trivial, there is no meta, like current star map. When something is actually challenging, certain strategies rise above others for being more consistent, or easier, or faster, etc. That's the meta and it is absolutely unavoidable if you want content to carry any challenge. 

However, you can absolutely choose to ignore the Meta all you want. I've soloed Eidolons with Inaros just fine. Was it more challenging with less margin for error? Yes. Was it impossible? No.

We choose for ourselves whether to follow a meta or not. Thinking otherwise is surrendering your free will and I for one refuse to do so.

Edited by Erytroxylin
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6 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

Absolutely missed the point. But not only that, the idea that everyone is in circumstances to avoid the Eidolon Meta is extremely unrealistic.

Good for you. That, however, requires the right company. Circumstances not everyone has. I have very few friends that play this game. Those I do have (and myself) have been playing the game for so long that we can't play the game all the time to avoid burn out and more often than not, when we aren't all taking breaks at the same time. So we have to rely on public groups. As to many other people who may be in similar circumstances, in small clans where a lot of time maybe they are the only one on who is in the mood for X content, etc.. Not everyone has the luxury of always having access to like minded people.

then get more god damned clan members... Of 300 some odd individuals, I've got about 8 that are willing to regularly throw what is effective to the side and take on hilariously impractical measures for completing challenging tasks. If you don't take the time to cultivate strong, healthy relationships with other people, they won't be willing to help you make the most of this content, and saying "good for you" is not a good starting point.

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I just want to fight a giant boss that I can hit with my sword and don't have to worry about shooting at small glowing weak spots, or constantly going into operator mode to take down some otherwise invincible shield.

 

Just let me hit it with my sword.  Just get me closer so I can hit them with sword.

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2 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

Unfortunately there will be meta against the orbs as players will ALWAYS find what works best and how to do it best; this becomes the meta. You cannot stop meta, only make it broad enough to fit more options.

Oh I don't refute that. There will always be people who feel that they absolutely have to have a Defense Target explicitly guarded because it's "the best way to do Defense". But there are choices there other than Frost and DE boosted the defenses on Defense Targets for those who don't need that sort of thing. It's the really narrow Metas that I take issue with, like the way Eidolon hunting has turned out.

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So, how can this problem be solved? I don't think it's actually within DE's power to do so. Not unless they make the orbs an absolute joke. That's simply the nature of challenging content in any reasonably popular multiplayer game. "The Meta" Isn't something DE controls the existence of. It's created and enforced by us, the players.

What kind of fight would you propose that you think wouldn't eventually devolve into a somewhat strict meta for player setups?

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9 minutes ago, Slamminslug said:

then get more god damned clan members... Of 300 some odd individuals, I've got about 8 that are willing to regularly throw what is effective to the side and take on hilariously impractical measures for completing challenging tasks. If you don't take the time to cultivate strong, healthy relationships with other people, they won't be willing to help you make the most of this content, and saying "good for you" is not a good starting point.

Your circumstances are not everyone's. None of us have the time or patience to properly lead a 300 member clan. We also all take long breaks that would get us kicked out of other clans who would be going through their lists and purging them to make room for more active players. We have an intentionally small clan for specific reasons.

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Meta will always exist. The key is not to make it required. Eidolon meta exists but it isn't required. The meta as eidolons go is there to do absurd things like 4x3 caps. Heck these days I hear the lfg messages demanding 100+ caps before theyll take anyone. So now there's a meta on experience.

For my part Im quite happy with my 1 forma trin prime paired with my 5 forma cc/d rivened rubico. Its versatile enough im sure ill be bringing it to orbs too unless it calls for octavia my more favorite frame.

Edited by BallisticSalsa
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5 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

Your circumstances are not everyone's. None of us have the time or patience to properly lead a 300 member clan. We also all take long breaks that would get us kicked out of other clans who would be going through their lists and purging them to make room for more active players. We have an intentionally small clan for specific reasons.

valid, though there are clans out there which maintain players who have been offline in excess of 2 years. It's all depending on the temperament of the leaders. I can understand wanting to keep a small close knit group. My clan started as 6 people I know personally, two of whom no longer play regularly. whether it be production costs, scores in events, elimination of drama etc, etc, there are very good reasons for small clans. if you're ever looking for someone to play off-meta with, recruitment chat is, regrettably, the worst place to inquire. recruitment is the haven of meta. quick response times, quick games, quick rewards. three of the people I play semi-frequently with were found here on the forums. just send out a post asking if anyone is game for trying to fry an eidolon with only nukors and neg-str rhinos (Hard). random S#&$. 

 

Its kind of unfortunate that we have to develop these stipulations to mix things up. It would be neat if both starchart missions and bounties on the plains and vallis had optional "custom nightmare" modes, where you could add modifiers such as shotgun only, no shields, half energy pickups, etc. similar to the weekly mutations in Starcraft 2 Co-op mode. what would really throw it over the top would be the ability to add multiple modifiers for greater rewards, perhaps another 5% affinity/resources/credits per modifier placed?

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hace 45 minutos, Ceryk dijo:

That is one of my biggest annoyances with the Eidolon Meta. We need damage gating on big targets like that to prevent one shot kills. Takes what should be an epic fight with everyone fighting tooth and nail down to something incredibly dull.

yeah but the problem is not the bosses, its the players, we have too much damage, like ridiculous amounts of damage, hell, you can deal millions of damage with a good riven, and even with normal mods, some weapons like lanka are just bs strong, for something to be enjoyable theres a need for balance between players and enemies, and such balance is obviously not there when fighing eidolons, we are at a point where you either one shot an eidolon limb, or you take all night to take one, no balance at all

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The real issue at the end of all this is; Rewards. regardless of how or what it is, if people want the reward they will migrate to the fastest way of getting it. Be it 1 shot builds, speedrunning rift builds [to simply bypass all spy stuff], or whatever else works given the situation.

Its hard to stop people doing this because at the end of the day its the reward most care about not the method they get it. As its then just seen as content gating.

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2 minutes ago, TinFoilMkIV said:

So, how can this problem be solved? I don't think it's actually within DE's power to do so. Not unless they make the orbs an absolute joke. That's simply the nature of challenging content in any reasonably popular multiplayer game. "The Meta" Isn't something DE controls the existence of. It's created and enforced by us, the players.

What kind of fight would you propose that you think wouldn't eventually devolve into a somewhat strict meta for player setups?

Oh, it's entirely within their power and they've eliminated Meta before. The Eidolon meta could be severely reduced or eliminated fairly simply. However, in that case I think the backlash would be pretty severe and they just don't feel like dealing with it and are choosing to leave the obvious exploits in place intentionally.

My suggestions on a general level are to eliminate one shot limb kills, either via damage gating or diminishing returns on large damage attacks, and preventing Warframes from completely making a fairly major design mechanic of a fight irrelevant. On a specific level, it would really be more of a case by case basis depending on the fight's phases and enemy's attacks.

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hace 41 minutos, TinFoilMkIV dijo:

So, how can this problem be solved? I don't think it's actually within DE's power to do so. Not unless they make the orbs an absolute joke. That's simply the nature of challenging content in any reasonably popular multiplayer game. "The Meta" Isn't something DE controls the existence of. It's created and enforced by us, the players.

What kind of fight would you propose that you think wouldn't eventually devolve into a somewhat strict meta for player setups?

how about nerfing player damage to the ground?, nerfing all of those OP rivens (making for example, riven disposition more substancial), and lets say getting ridd of those red crits with x9 multipliers?

just imagine playing without those things that give ridiculous amounts of damage and you get a nice fun battle

Edited by Toppien
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6 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

Oh, it's entirely within their power and they've eliminated Meta before. The Eidolon meta could be severely reduced or eliminated fairly simply. However, in that case I think the backlash would be pretty severe and they just don't feel like dealing with it and are choosing to leave the obvious exploits in place intentionally.

My suggestions on a general level are to eliminate one shot limb kills, either via damage gating or diminishing returns on large damage attacks, and preventing Warframes from completely making a fairly major design mechanic of a fight irrelevant. On a specific level, it would really be more of a case by case basis depending on the fight's phases and enemy's attacks.

DE can destroy parts and aspects of a Meta, primarily by making changing the stats and resistances of stuff, but they cannot outright kill the existence of a Meta. They could kill what's currently the meta, but I have no doubt that new replacements would be found in short order.

I understand your complaint against one shot breaking the limb, but that honestly won't change much. With all the ways we can stack damage amplification, it's just going to be replaced with the highest RoF weapon that hits the damage cap efficiently, and limbs are liable to disintegrate as fast as the damage cap allows. This is an artificial restriction of player capabilities, and I general disapprove of such things, though again, I think I get where you're coming from. I'm not in favor of things that say "Well, normally you could do this, but we're going to ignore half your abilities and numbers and make you wait... this long before you're allowed to win. Because I say so."

It sounds to me like you're less against the existence of a strong meta, and more the shape it's taken. I think that's mostly down to how Warframe has been designed, and I don't see that being fixable without major changes to the systems and tools DE gives us as players.

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