My concern once Orbs can be fought

[Ceryk]

11 minutes ago, Toppien said:

yeah but the problem is not the bosses, its the players, we have too much damage, like ridiculous amounts of damage, hell, you can deal millions of damage with a good riven, and even with normal mods, some weapons like lanka are just bs strong, for something to be enjoyable theres a need for balance between players and enemies, and such balance is obviously not there when fighing eidolons, we are at a point where you either one shot an eidolon limb, or you take all night to take one, no balance at all

I'd say this was more 50/50. DE has admitted that they gave us way too much power early on with weapons and part of it is certainly on the players because of that. With the Eidolons, I can believe that DE did not anticipate it. But now they know it's an issue, so they should be taking steps to correct their mistakes. Short of Damage 3.0 actually getting done and the game being rebalanced, these bosses really need damage gating or something like that. We know they have been working on damage gating off and on for awhile for Warframes to prevent one shot kills or shield breaks, so it's not like it would be a new idea for them.

[Slamminslug]

problem is you have to leave the quickfire, rapid acquisition there for the bulk of players who just want instant gratification. the ADDITION of mechanisms that allow you to modify your encounter are the best option imo, that way we, who want a greater challenge, and more entertaining combat can get it, and those who don't wont cry like baby when their handouts are taken away.

[TinFoilMkIV]

3 minutes ago, Toppien said:

how about nerfing player damage to the ground?, nerfing all of those OP rivens (making for example, riven disposition more substancial), and lets say getting ridd of those red crits with x9 multipliers?

just imagine playing without those things that give ridiculous amounts of damage and you get a nice fun battle

Stuff like that would certainly help, but that won't fix all of it. Considering players have found ways to make a mining laser, read weapon that does such low damage the game doesn't bother to display it, capable of melting level 100+ enemies. Weapons that have crazy damage output even without any outside assistance certainly don't help, but they are nowhere near the whole problem. I'm actually all for reigning in a lot of our ridiculous multipliers, such as high end crit stats and such. I don't see it happening anytime soon though. There are too many people who are in love with that aspect of the game, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to take it away at this point in things.

The devs have kind of designed themselves into a corner in that regard. They've given us great toys that are fun to play with, but they are also capable of utterly breaking the game when someone really tries.

[Elenortirie]

2 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

I'd say this was more 50/50. DE has admitted that they gave us way too much power early on with weapons and part of it is certainly on the players because of that. With the Eidolons, I can believe that DE did not anticipate it. But now they know it's an issue, so they should be taking steps to correct their mistakes. Short of Damage 3.0 actually getting done and the game being rebalanced, these bosses really need damage gating or something like that. We know they have been working on damage gating off and on for awhile for Warframes to prevent one shot kills or shield breaks, so it's not like it would be a new idea for them.

funny fact in here is that whole synovia mechanic on eidolons IS already in itself a damage gating mechanism - bosses before eidolons either had to resort to invulnerability phases, or "vulnerable only when you hit here" weakspots to not be outright one-shotted.

the way eidolons work against that is that you have multiple separate targets, and killing each one resets the shields that are only vulnerable to specific kind of weaponry.

 

The issue in there tho is that pressure for meta is there because: A) time window to hunt for eidolons isfarily limited - only atnight in plains B) no time gating on rewards you get from a fight - imagine how much less pressure you'd have for capturing as many eidolons as possible per night if only first capture awarded you the thing you hunt them for? or imagine how much less of pressure to kill them as eficiently as possible if you could just hop in for a hunt at any point in your day and enjoy the fight for as long as you want instead of being gated by 40minutes timer after which you need to wait over hour to be able to try again.

Fighting occurence of overly-optimised meta is imo a fools errand - what would be approachable avenue tho is to analyse reasons "why" overly optimised meta formed and adress incentives for that to form. 

[Toppien]

hace 9 minutos, TinFoilMkIV dijo:

Stuff like that would certainly help, but that won't fix all of it. Considering players have found ways to make a mining laser, read weapon that does such low damage the game doesn't bother to display it, capable of melting level 100+ enemies. Weapons that have crazy damage output even without any outside assistance certainly don't help, but they are nowhere near the whole problem. I'm actually all for reigning in a lot of our ridiculous multipliers, such as high end crit stats and such. I don't see it happening anytime soon though. There are too many people who are in love with that aspect of the game, and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to take it away at this point in things.

The devs have kind of designed themselves into a corner in that regard. They've given us great toys that are fun to play with, but they are also capable of utterly breaking the game when someone really tries.

yeah, i can see players screaming to the 4 winds, if they take away their damage multipliers, the other solution, is making all weapons more powerfull, except the ones that are already OP, while also making all enemies bullet sponges, with less resistances, just look at how world of warcraft manages health and damage values, if small quantities dont work, make all numbers across the board bigger, the problem here is that a really small bunch of weapons are dealling too much damage, leaving all the other options garbage that are not worth it for end game content

Edited November 12, 2018 by Toppien

[Dabnician]

14 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

these bosses really need damage gating or something like that.

They are just going to add a damage cap so every will shift over to low damage high rate of fire weapons.

[Spectre-8]

3 hours ago, Ceryk said:

The only real concern I have ever had with Fortuna has been the Orbs. Adding more endgame content is much needed, but I am very worried it's going to turn into yet another boring Meta Mess. DE has been pretty good about removing the worst of the really bad Meta garbage from the main body of the game and there is no long any need for any specifically required from for any mission type between adding more options or changing what started the nonsense to begin with. But thus far, they haven't been able to do that with any of the big content. Trials were boring because of the required Meta play style, so no one played them. Eidolons have better incentive to engage, but the Meta has made what should be an exciting and epic battle dull and more tedious than anything else because you have to play prescribed frames/schools in a prescribed way with a very prescribed build using prescribed weapons. I certainly understand people wanting to win and all of that, but it gets to the point where you either play the enforced Meta or you don't get to do the content at all. And I am really concerned we will end up seeing that happen again with Orbs since it has happened every time they have released a major piece of endgame content.

Create your own squad and play by your own rules , easy .

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Il y a 1 heure, TinFoilMkIV a dit :

So, how can this problem be solved? I don't think it's actually within DE's power to do so. Not unless they make the orbs an absolute joke. That's simply the nature of challenging content in any reasonably popular multiplayer game. "The Meta" Isn't something DE controls the existence of. It's created and enforced by us, the players.

What kind of fight would you propose that you think wouldn't eventually devolve into a somewhat strict meta for player setups?

While I'm sure my idea is flawed, I'm thinking of something like making the meta an "Objective" rather than just letting players spam abilities left and right in order to kill said boss.

• You want to deal massive damage on the boss? Complete an event that allows you to gain some specific buffs to take down said boss.
  It can be literally anything : Status enabling/boosting rounds, extra raw damage, critical overload you make your pick depending on your weapon.
  Makes every type of weapon viable be it for their raw damage, status effects or critical stacking.
  Hell, give explosive or EMP rounds to clear/CC the mobs if you want.
  
  There's so much to work on with our damage settings. We have about 10 different status effect and none can be used on the eidolon except radiation to give you an extra 75% damage adding up after you've scratched away his armor with shattered impact.
  Some status sounds like they'd be powerful, but there's plenty of work around. Slowly Stacking them to full effect mostly.

 

• You want to make everyone invulnerable when the boss unleashes death upon you? Cue the "Impending doom" notification and tell all players involved to complete a task before said doom. And then unleash a wave that nullifies powers, kill operators and warframes alike if said event is not completed in time.
  
  Don't force a specific invulnerability warframe just because it makes the fight go faster.
  Entering void mode to avoid the eidolon's death pulse is so cheap and lame, there's little to do during that time, it's just "Here you pressed a button on your keyboard, you can't die now for the next 10-20 seconds"

 

• Wanna heal the thing that's specifically necessary to hold the boss in a certain position?
  Player-input, bring it towards a healing area on the map.
  
  Don't force a healer into the team if you wouldn't originally need it for yourself.

You could say some of those are akin to "invulnerability" phases, but instead of just making the boss cheaply invulnerable for the sake of time-gating the fight, you actually make it so that there's a required player-input with a worthy "reward" for breaking him out of it.
(I was writing something here, but had an emergency to go through, text got a bit long so forget about that line.)

Quite naturally, the boss requires a source of distraction, chaos and basic enemies to the fight making it harder for you to have total control unless you take your eyes away from the boss or delegate someone for that task.

The whole point I'm trying to make is basically : Don't let a single weapon type or a single warframe power balance out the entire fight.
We have a large amount of weapons and warframes, it's simply sad to see them blocked out away from the fight because all of their abilities are inclined towards the actual game instead of the few Solo-buffing picks.

Mind you, I'm sure there's gonna be some sort of meta, there will always be, however making all warframes and all weapons a valid pick is what I strive for.
The current Radiation Sniper/Lure Heal/Operator Focus meta is just 100times above any other choice for the eidolon and that's what's disheartening.
There's no variety, everything's prevented.

Edited November 12, 2018 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[DrBorris]

Since when is encouraging a group to have a support healer and a DPS character a "mess". Like, that is every class based game... ever. If every Warframe could do every piece of content equally well, we would have thirty sum odd Warframes with the same effective abilities.

 

And even then, you can do a 3x3 with just a Trinity or Oberon, I believe there is a 3x3 solo video somewhere. Maybe even a Limbo if you are on point. The rest of the party is up in the air, they can literally be any frame they want.

It is horse poo that the meta is "necessary", you can not only get by, but be extremely successful with a massive array of different Warframes. Don't take those people in recruit chat who say you NEED something fool you into thinking that you actually need it, I have seen some crazy comps on public Tridolon hunts and only rarely had an issue (issues generally caused by lack of skill/understanding, not by equipment).

 

And a meta in trials? Lol, you have got to be kidding me. The only Trial "meta" was bring maybe one CC frame, EV Trin, and a Warframe with a high energy pool (for LoR at least, JV was anything goes).

That's it, two Warframes out of eight. What a toxic meta... The "toxic" part of trials was the learning part, be that bad teachers or oblivious students.

 

If people are telling you otherwise, they're the oblivious ones. Some people get caught up in "oh, its the best" and forget that the second option below is only a margin of error worse.

Edited November 12, 2018 by DrBorris

[Erytroxylin]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

There's no variety, everything's prevented

It's not though. People choose to do it that way because it's fast, easy, and they are gunning for those shards/arcanes. The lack of variety is on the players, not DE.

There are multiple ways to solve each issue on Eidolons.

For example just consider the mag death wave and the lures. Arcanes can give you immunity to the mag proc. You can chug pizzas. You can use Zen dash. You can pop abilities that make you immune to things(too many options to list them all). You can run out of range. 

For the Lures, you can heal then with Trinity, Oberon, Limbo, Vazarin Focus tree. You can get many extra lures sitting off to the side on stay till you need them. You can protect them with Unairus damage reduction void mode. You can shield bubble them. 

Anyway, there are many ways to solve the problems. Some are easier, or faster, or more consistent than others but they are all viable and can get the job done.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Erytroxylin

[Zourin]

Nobody loves invulnerable bosses. Nobody likes sitting around waiting for that one fraction of a second they become vulnerable to one instance of damage before going back to watching Netflix for five more minutes. Particularly those who happen to like weapons that need to fire more than one bullet to accomplish anything.

 

If it can't be Grakata'd, Clem doesn't like it.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a 44 minutes, Erytroxylin a dit :

It's not though. People choose to do it that way because it's fast, easy, and they are gunning for those shards/arcanes. The lack of variety is on the players, not DE.

There are multiple ways to solve each issue on Eidolons.

For example just consider the mag death wave and the lures. Arcanes can give you immunity to the mag proc. You can chug pizzas. You can use Zen dash. You can pop abilities that make you immune to things(too many options to list them all). You can run out of range. 

For the Lures, you can heal then with Trinity, Oberon, Limbo, Vazarin Focus tree. You can get many extra lures sitting off to the side on stay till you need them. You can protect them with Unairus damage reduction void mode. You can shield bubble them. 

Anyway, there are many ways to solve the problems. Some are easier, or faster, or more consistent than others but they are all viable and can get the job done.

Except the problem isn't exactly what you've described.
There's a lot of far-fetched specific alternatives that we can nitpick for each phase, but most of them still don't fix the issue that is : The eidolon fight excludes a lot of content from warframe and renders it rather useless.

Status chance is completely removed.
Elemental damage is hidden under "Radiation is king"
Most weapons that aren't snipers take an absurd amount of time to destroy a limb unless triple buffed by teammates ( That's not a work-around, that's just ridiculous )
Warframes that are Crowd-control oriented are useless.
Warframes that are dps oriented lose, at most 80% of their kit and are left as that "I have a damage reduction ability".
Melee is redundant.

It's not that "I can't" do it, but rather that most of my abilities to play the game are hindered by the most basic immunity.
I "Could" bring... Lets say Banshee, into the fight, waste a thousand energy and health pads until I somehow manage to clear the night.
I "could" run the entire cycle with a godly-300level killer status shotgun, but what I'm trying to push across is that ; both would be utterly useless.
There's no ability nor damage output for both of these because all of their efficiency is negated by an immunity that could easily be worked differently.

When you go into a mission, regardless of what it is, your weapon and warframe will have an effect on the enemy you're fighting regardless of the build you've decided to go for.
When you enter an eidolon fight however, you acknowledge that only a small portion of what you own is gonna work.

[BallisticSalsa]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Except the problem isn't exactly what you've described.
There's a lot of far-fetched specific alternatives that we can nitpick for each phase, but most of them still don't fix the issue that is : The eidolon fight excludes a lot of content from warframe and renders it rather useless.

That's most higher level content you just described to a greater or lesser degree.

There are times when you go into a sortie 3 or arbitration with an adequate frame and play walking simulator 2018 because the Frost, Equinox and Rhino just plain do better than well meaning Mirage.

And truthfully those limitations breed creativity. This whole conversation has convinced me to go kill a terry with an Umbra and a broken war.

[(PSN)Double991]

They had damage caps on Hemocytes to drag out the fight and people hated it. Slowing down the fight won't necessarily make the fight more epic but it will make it more grindy.

The best way to have fun is to make fun and some frames will always be better than others at specific tasks, Eidolons being one of them. That's part of what makes each frame unique.

[Lordmotav]

I was capping terries with a level 0 mote amp, with a level 18 Cernos on my level 23 Gara frame. It took us a while at first, but we still did it. Then we did it again except with a different random and he did all the work himself.

The Eidolons weren't hard enough to be impossible for people who weren't 100% prepared and easy enough to players who were to grind them easily since, you were supposed to grind the crap out of em. I imagine the Orbs won't be much different. New mechanic and all maybe but not out of reach of too many people.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Lordmotav

[(PSN)Zero_029]

5 hours ago, Ceryk said:

but it gets to the point where you either play the enforced Meta or you don't get to do the content at all.

Not true. DE has bent over backwards to ensure that content is doable for all playstyles.

Eidolons for example can be Solo'd. Yea, they are not as easy to take down as they are in a group but they can be Solo'd & easily Duo'd.

Meta Frames are not required. The Meta does make them easier I admit.

As for Focus, Weapons, & etc. All the Meta does is speed up the repetition of said content. It's not required at all.

I've never used the Meta for anything in this game tbh.

[trst]

Not sure if someone else mentioned it already but the reason the Eidolon meta exists is because of their time constraint.

People would have still meta farmed them without the nighttime requirement but far more people would feel less "forced" into doing so, mostly because they don't have all day to wait for night cycles.

So long as the Orbs aren't arbitrarily time gated in a similar fashion then the meta issue should be far less extreme.

[wtflag]

There is no way there isn't going to be meta guns or meta frames for any kind of content. 

People who believe otherwise are basically flat earthers- clinging to an impossibility in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Sorry to be so harsh but even the newest newbie understands that frames have different abilities and some of those abilities are better in certain missions.

You can choose not to use the most optimal frame or the meta frame. You just will not be as effective as the meta frame. And that is fine. The game doesn't require 100% from you to beat, 90% or 80% or 70% is fine as well. 20% or 10% is fine as well, it just takes longer and your teammates have to pick up what you are supposed to do.

Edited November 13, 2018 by wtflag

[OniDax]

My concern is that the Orb Mothers will require Operator gameplay. Meta or no meta, I can't stand Operator gameplay and can't stand fighting Eidolons because of it. I want to be able to fight the Orb Mothers completely using my Warframe or completely using my Operator.

[Marvelous_A]

6 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

I just want to fight a giant boss that I can hit with my sword and don't have to worry about shooting at small glowing weak spots, or constantly going into operator mode to take down some otherwise invincible shield.

 

Just let me hit it with my sword.  Just get me closer so I can hit them with sword.

-Umbra the ultimate sentient slayer

-Has absolutely no way to harm the eidolons coz melee don't do sh1t on them

Edited November 13, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[Erytroxylin]

6 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Except the problem isn't exactly what you've described.
There's a lot of far-fetched specific alternatives that we can nitpick for each phase, but most of them still don't fix the issue that is : The eidolon fight excludes a lot of content from warframe and renders it rather useless.

Status chance is completely removed.
Elemental damage is hidden under "Radiation is king"
Most weapons that aren't snipers take an absurd amount of time to destroy a limb unless triple buffed by teammates ( That's not a work-around, that's just ridiculous )
Warframes that are Crowd-control oriented are useless.
Warframes that are dps oriented lose, at most 80% of their kit and are left as that "I have a damage reduction ability".
Melee is redundant.

It's not that "I can't" do it, but rather that most of my abilities to play the game are hindered by the most basic immunity.
I "Could" bring... Lets say Banshee, into the fight, waste a thousand energy and health pads until I somehow manage to clear the night.
I "could" run the entire cycle with a godly-300level killer status shotgun, but what I'm trying to push across is that ; both would be utterly useless.
There's no ability nor damage output for both of these because all of their efficiency is negated by an immunity that could easily be worked differently.

When you go into a mission, regardless of what it is, your weapon and warframe will have an effect on the enemy you're fighting regardless of the build you've decided to go for.
When you enter an eidolon fight however, you acknowledge that only a small portion of what you own is gonna work.

I mean, you're right that a lot of mechanics are removed from play. At the same time, that's what it takes to make bosses non-trivial because our abilities in game are just that strong. I honestly think the Eidolon fights went way beyond any of the other boss combat encounters, in existence before them, when it comes to making an interesting fight. I think that perspective on where DE came from is important to the overall discussion. I do think DE has plenty of room to improve yet, and I have high hopes for the Spidos on Orb Vallis. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that DE is getting better at this over time. Since the spiders aren't in yet, it means they are still likely working on them. What kind of ideas do you have that they could do for those fights to do better?

[Eisdschungel]

The Problem is we cant have a hard fight AND no meta. The harder a boss is, the more important it is to use the most efficient way to tackle the fight and the more relevant the Meta will be. The eidolons being time gated to night only make this Problem worse.

I read damage gating as fix a few times. But what will that change save from making slow firing hard hitting weapons less usable (Lanka is not op, outside eidolons its hardly seen at all)?  Just take a look at plague star and the hemocyte.  Is there Really a difference between oneshotting a synovia with a sniper + Chroma and burning through a Head with Titania in about 2 seconds?

[DreisterDino]

There will be always 1 Frame and 1 weapon that is best at doing something, and that will become the Meta.

That is the nature of a Game where you have so many different abilities, its really that simple and cant be avoided.

Unless you make every Frame and every Weapon completly the same, this wont change, and i dont think its a bad thing tbh.

 

But you dont have to do it that way. There is a meta of frames for each mission type in the game.

Still, my clanmates and i are doing Sorties with completly randomized loadouts for over a month now (its fun btw^^),

and i think we failed only 1 mission or so (ande a few spys here and there^^). It might take longer, but Meta is not required.

Edit: Ah, and even if you fail once...whats the problem? You can try again ^^ We found it funny for the most part if we (nearly) failed something.

Because thats a rare thing in Warframe. Next step is doing Sorties without HUD now for us btw (preparing for 20 minutes rescue missions 😀)

Edited November 13, 2018 by DreisterDino

[Talinthis]

Well you gotta do damage to kill stuff so I really don't see how you can even think there wont be a meta for it

[hyperkayak]

I feel like we haven't even reached the source of the problem.
This one's quite tricky, it probably doesn't even fit in 1 sentence.

Still sticking to the eidolon hunts:
Having a meta at all is not it.
Different playstyles producing different takedown times is not it.

The problem is, imo, that all of the following are in effect simmultaneously:
-The meta is boring for some players.
-The meta is the most time-efficient for all players.
-Eidolons drop items that do not drop anywhere else.
-Eidolon parts are NEEDED, because they gate other content.
-Other Eidolon parts, Arcanes are dropped at random. They are also HUGELY useful and endgame.
-There is a time window for Eidolon hunting.
-Eidolons use cheap ability spam and "immune to everything" as their core mechanism.

You basically NEED to kill these things dozens of times. That becomes boring even without the meta.
But without diving into the meta, it also becomes SLOW.
ButT even with an optimal team, the Epic Boss Battle (tm) quickly devolves into a game of numbers, minmaxing, and soulless grind.
I agree there should be more ways to fight them. I'd like for there to be some void damage mods. I've been saying this since getting to talk to Onkko for the first time.
Like a gun mod that says something like "physical damage is converted into void damage. Statuses apply to sentients. Total damage is reduced by 60%" or something. And one for frames that says "your abilities now also deal damage to sentient plotshields and can apply statuses". And it would have a cost. Like have it be umbral. Or incompatible with umbral. Or something.

I'm sure all of you have seen the numbers, but here it is nonetheless: To get a max lvl Arcane Grace, one of the best arcanes in the game, you need 10 basic versions. It only drops from Hydrolyst capture. Hydrolyst capture is either super impossible, or fairly tedious, depending on how deep you are in the meta. It has a 5% chance to drop one. Quik mafs: To get a max level Arcane Grace, you'd need to capture a Hydrolyst TWO HUNDRED times. On average.
This is what I mean by soulless grind. And people are surprised that someone gets bored of it. No wonder people try to get it over with AQAP. Hell, if there could be more than 1 Hydrolyst in any given Plains instance, people would've already figured out how to get like 100 in one place and then nuke them. Because a reward you MAYBE get and a reward you have to sacrifice to unlock content (shards) are not true rewards. So now the fight isn't rewarding (AKA fun) and the drop isn't rewarding, What's left?
They should drop some token thingy. That you can take to Onkko and buy arcanes with. Here's the proof you killed this thing, now get the reward you want. Not randomly.
Having the current RNG on it just doesn't [[[[ respect the player's time ]]]].

But thankfully, some people are crazy, so I could BUY a maxed AG off of frame mart. Imagine the kind of person who has so many hydrolyst kills, that they can afford to SELL this thing? I love you random citizen.

I'd like to once bring a team on Nekroses and kill this thing with an army. That would be epic. The void-infused zombies would tear away at it and we'd snipe from further away.
But currently, this is impossible, as they would one-shot every summon, while producing no corpses to use. Plus the summons suck at aiming and wouldn't do any damage anyway.
Also, wtf DE! Stop adding new enemy types that we can't raise as minions (little eidolon heads, balloon spider, disco spider...)