"Sky Archwing sprinting now more closely resembles normal Archwing. "

[TylerFreeman]

uhhh...

https://imgur.com/Rh7ihRq

Is this...Intended? I feel WAY more slower than it was previously.

Edited November 12, 2018 by TylerFreeman

[DiabolusUrsus]

IMO that is a change for the better. The previous speed felt way too fast relative to the size of the map, and especially relative to the size of enemies.

Now I just have my fingers crossed for better airbrakes, and for Archwing powers to scale better against ground targets.

They could definitely use less ambiguous patch notes, though.

[TylerFreeman]

7 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO that is a change for the better. The previous speed felt way too fast relative to the size of the map, and especially relative to the size of enemies.

Now I just have my fingers crossed for better airbrakes, and for Archwing powers to scale better against ground targets.

They could definitely use less ambiguous patch notes, though.

Ah well...Still got my itzal teleport at least

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, TylerFreeman said:

Ah well...Still got my itzal teleport at least

Speaking of which... I think anti-missile powers really ought to be free considering how common missiles are in the open world maps.

[Mach25]

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO that is a change for the better. The previous speed felt way too fast relative to the size of the map, and especially relative to the size of enemies.

Gotta disagree there - I really don't see why archwings should be slow for covering a huge map in a reasonable manner. What's your line of reasoning for favoring the change? Perhaps I'm missing something?

6 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Speaking of which... I think anti-missile powers really ought to be free considering how common missiles are in the open world maps.

Nope, they should charge you 1 plat per four missiles janked and that's provided they are dumb rockets. Smart missiles are premium - they'll cost you 1 plat per 2 missiles, Tenno, all in  the name of profit. Praise the Void! And if you use my coupon "VOID", I will generously give you an additional flare for every 100 flare purchases - isn't that magnanimous of me? Praise the Void!

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Mach25

[SpycrabSurprise]

I'm very upset about the loss of the cruise control-like mode when you "sprinted". Also doing rolls was kind of fun...

[Gnohme]

Hmm... yeah when I said I wanted more reasons to not use Archwing, this isn't exactly what I meant.

[DiabolusUrsus]

22 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Gotta disagree there - I have really dont see why archwings should be slow for covering a huge map in a reasonable manner. What's your line of reasoning for favoring the change? Perhaps I'm missing something?

  Reveal hidden contents

IMO it's a balancing act between convenience and immersion; having unrestricted flight that reduces entire worldspaces to a few moments of sprinting in any direction directly contributes to the feeling of a smaller map.

When you first stepped onto the Plains, they felt rather big and expansive, right? Now how big do they feel after you've grown accustomed to zipping around on an Archwing?

As a different example, how big did Skyrim feel when you first escaped Riverwood? After you bought your first horse? Rode your first dragon?

There is a reason why checkpoint-based fast-travel is a tried-and-true alternative, and I think Warframe would be especially suited to its immersive use via teleporter/rail technology. Archwing was simply too fast for the scale of the maps in its previous iteration, and needed to be slowed. Hek, it might still be too fast; I've only seen OP's .gif.

In exchange, though, I would like to see Archwings become a more noteworthy combat presence, as implied by their original design.

[Beas7ie]

36 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Gotta disagree there - I have really dont see why archwings should be slow for covering a huge map in a reasonable manner. What's your line of reasoning for favoring the change? Perhaps I'm missing something?

Nope, they should charge you 1 plat per four missiles janked and that's provided they are dumb rockets. Smart missiles are premium - they'll cost you 1 plat per 2 missiles, Tenno, all in  the name of profit. Praise the Void! And if you use my coupon "VOID", I will generously give you an additional flare for every 100 flare purchases - isn't that magnanimous of me? Praise the Void!

  Reveal hidden contents

Archwings are obviously nerfed to further "encourage" the use of the kiddie hoverboards with no weapons or real abilities over the fancy space jetpacks that can well fly, let you use your guns, and have their own unique special abilities.

[Mach25]

2 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO it's a balancing act between convenience and immersion; having unrestricted flight that reduces entire worldspaces to a few moments of sprinting in any direction directly contributes to the feeling of a smaller map.

When you first stepped onto the Plains, they felt rather big and expansive, right? Now how big do they feel after you've grown accustomed to zipping around on an Archwing?

As a different example, how big did Skyrim feel when you first escaped Riverwood? After you bought your first horse? Rode your first dragon?

There is a reason why checkpoint-based fast-travel is a tried-and-true alternative, and I think Warframe would be especially suited to its immersive use via teleporter/rail technology. Archwing was simply too fast for the scale of the maps in its previous iteration, and needed to be slowed. Hek, it might still be too fast; I've only seen OP's .gif.

In exchange, though, I would like to see Archwings become a more noteworthy combat presence, as implied by their original design.

Very interesting take on it - I definitely see your point there, most certainly has given me a new way to look at it. Thanks for sharing.

[Darkuhn]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Beas7ie:

Archwings are obviously nerfed to further "encourage" the use of the kiddie hoverboards with no weapons or real abilities over the fancy space jetpacks that can well fly, let you use your guns, and have their own unique special abilities.

This was my idea exactly after reading the patchnotes... 😕

[Justin_Case001]

Please revert these sky archwing changes.  I honestly can't believe you did this.  Being able to fly upside down and do loops and barrel rolls was one of the most fun aspects of free roam missions for me.  Quite frankly, I am devastated by this change.  It was so much fun before.  Now it's total meh.  This is hands down the worst decision you've ever made, DE.  But you've always been great about listening to your players, and you've proven yourselves many times by doing the right thing.  I trust you to make the right decision again.  Please fix this.

On 2018-11-12 at 4:08 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

IMO it's a balancing act between convenience and immersion; having unrestricted flight that reduces entire worldspaces to a few moments of sprinting in any direction directly contributes to the feeling of a smaller map.

When you first stepped onto the Plains, they felt rather big and expansive, right? Now how big do they feel after you've grown accustomed to zipping around on an Archwing?

As a different example, how big did Skyrim feel when you first escaped Riverwood? After you bought your first horse? Rode your first dragon?

There is a reason why checkpoint-based fast-travel is a tried-and-true alternative, and I think Warframe would be especially suited to its immersive use via teleporter/rail technology. Archwing was simply too fast for the scale of the maps in its previous iteration, and needed to be slowed. Hek, it might still be too fast; I've only seen OP's .gif.

In exchange, though, I would like to see Archwings become a more noteworthy combat presence, as implied by their original design.

Hmm.  Well, I'd prefer all of the 24.0.4 changes to be reverted, but if they wanna slow it down?  Fine.  I don't really care that much.  Just give me the rolling and looping back.  That's the most fun aspect of AW--feeling like you're in a fighter jet.  Being anchored to the 2-D ground plane in terms of screen orientation just makes it so much more boring and lame.

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Hmm.  Well, I'd prefer all of the 24.0.4 changes to be reverted, but if they wanna slow it down?  Fine.  I don't really care that much.  Just give me the rolling and looping back.  That's the most fun aspect of AW--feeling like you're in a fighter jet.  Being anchored to the 2-D ground plane in terms of screen orientation just makes it so much more boring and lame.

Agreed. I don't understand why it isn't handled the same way conventional AW, where players can toggle between the simplified and true-3D control schemes through the options menu.

It should stand to reason that players who prefer the 2D anchor in space will prefer it in-atmosphere, and vice-versa.

[Mach25]

4 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Please revert these sky archwing changes.  I honestly can't believe you did this.  Being able to fly upside down and do loops and barrel rolls was one of the most fun aspects of free roam missions for me.  Quite frankly, I am devastated by this change.  It was so much fun before.  Now it's total meh.  This is hands down the worst decision you've ever made, DE.  But you've always been great about listening to your players, and you've proven yourselves many times by doing the right thing.  I trust you to make the right decision again.  Please fix this.

Hmm.  Well, I'd prefer all of the 24.0.4 changes to be reverted, but if they wanna slow it down?  Fine.  I don't really care that much.  Just give me the rolling and looping back.  That's the most fun aspect of AW--feeling like you're in a fighter jet.  Being anchored to the 2-D ground plane in terms of screen orientation just makes it so much more boring and lame.

[Brosef42]

On 2018-11-12 at 3:09 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

Speaking of which... I think anti-missile powers really ought to be free considering how common missiles are in the open world maps.

 

You're complaint about missiles, which makes no sense if you are happy about the speed and maneuverability nerf. Which is how I avoided missiles. I don't think I have ever been hit by one. Do you just stand still in the archwing when missiles are coming?

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

You're complaint about missiles, which makes no sense if you are happy about the speed and maneuverability nerf. Which is how I avoided missiles. I don't think I have ever been hit by one. Do you just stand still in the archwing when missiles are coming?

You're making a lot of assumptions here, with some impressive leaps in logic.

1. I think the speed nerf is a good thing for immersion + sense of scale, as previously explained.

2. BECAUSE speed is otherwise the only reliable defense against the common threat of missiles, player missile defense would need to be buffed to compensate.

In other words, LESS speed + MORE direct combat viability. Make sense now?

[Brosef42]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You're making a lot of assumptions here, with some impressive leaps in logic.

1. I think the speed nerf is a good thing for immersion + sense of scale, as previously explained.

2. BECAUSE speed is otherwise the only reliable defense against the common threat of missiles, player missile defense would need to be buffed to compensate.

In other words, LESS speed + MORE direct combat viability. Make sense now?

I do not agree that speed is an immersion break. How is going fast in the air different from an otherwise fast paced game. 

No. Why would you want to take a missile directly on. This game is about fast paced action. Most frames aren't super tanky. Why would your archwing off all things be. dodging and evading doesn't seem like a lot to ask of players. Instead of spamming skills to stay safe.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by Brosef42

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

I do not agree that speed is an immersion break. How is going fast in the air different from an otherwise fast paced game.

I described it in detail just a few posts prior. Go read that first.

I said I wanted Archwings to have more direct combat viability, as well.

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

No. Why would you want to take a missile directly on.

When did I say I wanted to take missiles on directly? Countering missiles without needing to fly completely out of range is part of that.

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

This game is about fast paced action.

So what? Archwing would still qualify as fast-paced at HALF its previous speed.

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

Most frames aren't super tanky.

What does Warframe durability have to do with Archwing durability? The stats are completely different.

Also, why are we even talking about tanking? Who said anything about tanking?

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

Why would your archwing off all things be.

This is apples and oranges.

More importantly, not all Archwings are the same. It seems appropriate for Itzal to evade missiles with speed, but why does that apply to Odonata or Amesha, let alone Elytron?

Odonata has friggin flares! If we're not gonna let the flares counter missiles effectively, why does the ability exist at all?

2 hours ago, Brosef42 said:

dodging and evading doesn't seem like a lot to ask of players. Instead of spamming skills to stay safe.  

Why are dodging and evading off the table? Speed did not let you dodge missiles, only out-run them.

When you are busy outrunning a missile, you can't fight. Considering how fast missiles are spammed, I think having a reliable missile-counter is critical if Archwings are to play a bigger role  in combat.

As it is, Archwings are really only useful for travel and not really worth using in fights. I want them to be worth using in fights.

[Brosef42]

35 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

As it is, Archwings are really only useful for travel and not really worth using in fights. I want them to be worth using in fights.

I disagree with you that archwing should be used in fights and I do not think this change helped you either. For one you said that archwings move to fast. The change only effected the boost and the controls. Most people I've seen only shoot while not using their boost, because the boost is intended for greatly increasing your speed and to avoid damage. Also the archwing right now is used to engage battles. not to be used in battles. Which makes sense  because it is mostly used for transportation like you said. Just like most games. You do not stay on your mount once engaged.  Right now the boost does little to nothing which ruins its transportation use and that doesnt increase your survivability. It makes the archwing even more likely to be destroyed. Removing maneuverability with the new controls also doesn't help.

As far as your point that the speed made the world feel smaller. That's honestly just an opinion. I hated how slow the horse was in skyrim and only used it when i couldn't way point. When it come to fortuna's new map, I still felt the map was huge even if I was buzzing around it at a 100miles an hour. Also your idea for a way point system confused me because you said going to fast was immersion breaking. Yet teleporting from one side to the map to other instantly isn't. How? Also just because bethesda does it. Doesn't make it a good idea. Especially after looking at their recent game. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Brosef42

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

I disagree with you. I do not think this change helped you either. For one you said that archwings move to fast. The change only effected the boost and the controls.

I mean, the boost was the main problem IMO.

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

Most people I've seen shoot while not using their boost, because the boost is intended for greatly increasing your speed and to avoid damage.

Well, yeah, which is why I mentioned how missiles were spammed way too much. The constant stream of missiles means you rarely have time to stop boosting and fight.

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

Also the archwing right now is used to engage battles. not to be used in battles. Which makes sense  because it is mostly used for transportation.

Gee, it's almost like I just said essentially the same thing while mentioning that I wanted it to be different.

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

Just like most games.

Other games have Archwings?! 0_0

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

You do not stay on your mount once engaged.

Most mounts also don't come equipped with homing missiles and bunker-busters. Thank goodness Warframe isn't a carbon-copy of every other game on the market, eh?

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

Right now the boost does little to nothing. That doesnt increase your survivability and makes the archwing even more likely to be destroyed. Removing maneuverability with the new controls also doesn't help.

How silly I've been; suggesting buffs to Archwing defense powers to compensate for the mobility nerf!

Also, please don't pretend that the ability to roll and bank was key to evading damage. With equal speed, the classic AW controls are just as effective at evading. However, I do agree that the controls should be kept as an option, like they are in normal Archwing missions.

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

As far as your point that the speed made the world feel smaller. That's honestly just an opinion.

So what? It's a valid opinion and I supported my points. Pretty much everything you've said has been your opinion. Fancy that; people can have different opinions!

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

I hated how slow the horse was in skyrim and only used it when i couldn't way point.  I still felt the map was huge even if I was buzzing around it at a 100miles an hour. Also your idea for a way point system confused me because you said going to fast was immersion breaking. Yet teleporting from one side to the map to other instantly isn't. How???

Because teleporter technology would fit the lore and game universe.

Teleporting around the map is not immersion-breaking the way free-flight is, because it is instant and does not increase altitude. Flying continuously over the landscape and seeing it from a high vantage point is what emphasizes how small the map is. Teleporting at ground level does not give the player a reference for time relative to distance, and as such does not break the illusion of map size.

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

 Also just because bethesda doesn't make it a good idea. Espeically after looking at their recent game. 

Fast-travel is not unique to Bethesda. ._.

[DaigojiGai]

Every post made by DiabolusUrsus in this thread is art, and contains the most concise and logical arguments made about this topic.
Diabolus is right.
This thread may be closed.

[Altagraive]

I want fun and fast archwing back.

[Brosef42]

I never said you couldn't have your opinion. I was merely expressing mine and why I thought yours was wrong. This a forum. A place for discussion. If I didn't want you to have the right to voice your opinion would mean I wouldn't have a right to voice mine. Also can you please quit splitting every sentence I say. It makes your post unnecessary long and it takes away from the hole point. It's like you try to take every point out of context. 

[DaigojiGai]

15 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

I never said you couldn't have your opinion. I was merely expressing mine and why I thought yours was wrong. This a forum. A place for discussion. If I didn't want you to have the right to voice your opinion would mean I wouldn't have a right to voice mine. Also can you please quit splitting every sentence I say. It makes your post unnecessary long and it takes away from the hole point. It's like you try to take every point out of context. 

None of my business, so I shouldn't even reply, but - him taking the time to dissect your counter argument, line by line, was not only a courteous investment of some of his time for ease of reading, but also to finely address each one of your points. Frankly, you did totally misunderstand some of his easier to grasp arguments originally, which did somewhat warrant a bulleted style of addressing your points or seeming confusion [in short - many game devs battle with speed as it can shrink down the perception of map size; nerfing speed for immersion does remove some of the defenses speed and agility provided for archwings, so coming up with other solutions is a nice balance.]
Don't see him taking anything out of context, but going slowly to bring you up to speed with some of his easier to grasp arguments you yourself admitted seemed contradictory, but aren't.

Also, unnecessary long posts? That is an issue? Come on man, in this day and age? Are we back to the era before high speed internet, higher resolutions and the arrival of the mouse wheel? 

Cheers.

Love, peace and hugs.

Edited November 15, 2018 by DaigojiGai

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 minutes ago, Brosef42 said:

I never said you couldn't have your opinion. I was merely expressing mine and why I thought yours was wrong. This a forum. A place for discussion. If I didn't want you to have the right to voice your opinion would mean I wouldn't have a right to voice mine. Also can you please quit splitting every sentence I say. It makes your post unnecessary long and it takes away from the hole point. It's like you try to take every point out of context. 

You started this discussion by suggesting that my opinion was somehow self-contradictory or illogical. I took the time to explain to you how and why you were wrong on that count. As @DaigojiGai pointed out below, I was using more isolated responses to your sentences because you appeared to be struggling with following my reasoning. If you take the time to consider what I said, I didn't take anything you wrote out of context and responded to it in kind.

6 minutes ago, DaigojiGai said:

None of my business, so I shouldn't even reply, but - him taking the time to dissect your counter argument, line by line, was not only a courteous investment of some of his time for easy of reading, but also to finely address each one of your points. Frankly, you did totally misunderstand some of his easier to grasp arguments originally, which did somewhat warrant a bulleted style of addressing your points or seeming confusion [in short - many game devs battle with speed as it can shrink down the perception of map size; nerfing speed for immersion does remove some of the defenses speed and agility provided for archwings, so coming up with other solutions is a nice balance.]
Don't see him taking anything out of context, but going slowly to bring you up to speed with some of his easier to grasp arguments you yourself admitted seemed contradictory, but aren't.

Cheers.

Love, peace and hugs.

Spoiler