Addressing Garuda compaints

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Yep it's me again.  Leave now if you don't think my opinion is invalid due to not having her yet (console player.)  I'm more than aware of what her abilities are capable of.  If you come in here writing my opinion off based on lack of personal experience with the frame your post will be ignored.  Also i'm choosing to post this in general discussion as i'm not making suggestions on how to improve her kit.  Merely addressing the critisism her kit has gotten.  But if a mod feels it should be put in the feedback then they can move it.  Either way lets get into these complaints:

 

"Her dread mirror is bad because it's instant kill threshhold is non usable, the mirror only protects you from one way, and the blood ball is too clunky."

The instant kill threshold is not a main point of the thing.  It's a mere bonus to the kit.  And you can make frequent use of it if you're doing melee combat or have procced slash on the enemies from her 4.  The mirror being only one way is meant to give you breathing room while you heal up with blood altar or if you're charging into enemies with melee.  Volt's shield is also only one direction.  And while you "can" cast it multiple times to protect yourself at all angles this is rarely needed.  Volt in solo uses his shield for temp breathing room in a corner or in a smartly positioned place.  And while the blood ball does restrict movement some what and requires a little setup to nuke high content enemies the fact that you can nuke enemies like this is good.  Saryn who is widely regarded as  stronk frame has similar setup.  Just better range (since things spread.)

 

"You need 200% strength to force slash procs."

Considering you basically have a nuke that works at any level the investment should be hefty.  You don't need much range and you don't really need any efficiency for her kit.  So it's not like you're being squeezed for mod points.  It's also a team wide buff because it procs slash for all incoming sources of damage.  That's insanely strong.

 

"She requires too much setup and the content she'd be amazing at isn't practical content."

First.  Sorties.  Second Nidus is also very niche.  Requires a lot of setup.  Yet no one complains about him or call his kit bad.  In star chart content her 4 and 1 are nukes on her own and due to her range on her 1 and 3 she can zip around as a melee frame with a bit of support due to blood alter.  She might be a bit generic in that context.  But honestly why are we emphasizing roles here when most of the frames are capable of carrying even sortie level missions at this point.

 

"Blood alter does bad healing."

No.  Blood alter does situationally good healing.  As it heals based on your missing health %  And it's stackable with up to 3 other alters over lapping.  Sure it's not going to save you from insane burst damage at higher levels.  But typically no healing is good at that unless you have some kind of damage reduction going on.

"her 4 is meh because it's not and I quote doing anything besides slash procs."

Probably the most insane thing i've heard.  You have the ability to force slash procs in a wide AOE that lets you nuke any leveled enemy with any ability or weapon.  This benefits your allies as well.  And you don't need LoS.  You can literally aim it at a wall and if enemies are walking in that area they WILL get hit.

 

"her 3 is pointless because we have so many ways to get energy."

Ah.  Okay.  So.  No.  Not everyone has the resources/plays with energy pads.  Arcanes are expensive to get and hard to obtain.  Zenerick requires you to leave your frame periodically.  Even if we ignore all of that are you REALLY going to give up free energy just because there are other ways to obtain it?  No.  People stack energy gain benefits and have for some time because we ALWAYS need energy.  You'll need the energy too if you plan on playing her as a melee frame.  Which people seem to mostly be sleeping on.

 

"her passive is boring/useless as nothing encourages you to stay weak for the benefit."

There is your answer.  Right there.  DE does not expect you to play with low health.  If they wanted her kit to play that way She'd have gotten some damage reduction some how rather than a shield.  Sacrificing health gives you energy.  Energy is needed to give you health and to use her other abilities to debuff/sustain.  The damage buff is a cherry on top.  Like you used your 2 twice behind your mirror so you'd have enough energy to make that pesky nox a healing beacon for you and your allies.  But before you do that you chuck your blood ball at a group and kill them.  Or maybe you seriously wound the nox before blood altering him.  It's an after thought.  And having your own melee weapon is unique.  Passives should not play a massive role in kit performance.  Inaro's passive is hella good.  But do you use it often?  Not really.  But it's still nice to have.

 

So what am I getting at here?  It's a classic problem with new frames/reworks.  Parts of the community see how the new thing should be played and DE sees it differently.  Am I saying I wouldn't like a frame that plays around low health?  No.  I'm just saying that's not garuda.  Though they probably could enable that in some fashion with syndicate mods later on.  (but i'd much rather they just make a frame entirely based around that.)  She's a blood mage.  Mages can nuke rooms.  Garuda can nuke rooms.  blood mages use blood magic for benefits and debuffs.  Garuda can heal herself and allies along with debuffing enemies with slash for her and her team.  Blood mages often use a risk/reward factor like their life source for their abilities.  Garuda hurts herself to gain energy which fuels her abilities.

Garuda 100% fits her theme and does it mechanically very well.  Plus due to the behavior of her 1 and 3 and the absurd ranges they both have she actually is a fairly decent melee frame.  I'm not saying Garuda is perfect.  Like a base 6 meters on blood alter really is bad.  But people are just wanting something out of her that's not her.  And finding any complaint they can find to try and justify their feelings.  I get it guys.  I HATE Revenant and everything he stands for.  But i'm not going to try and downplay any of his strengths.  He's just not what I wanted.  And that's fine.  Garuda is the best frame they've designed both mechanically and thematically (right down to her sounds and animations/general looks of her) since probably Nidus.  And I always go to the bat for Khora.

 

[Kyoresh]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"her 3 is pointless because we have so many ways to get energy."

 

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"her passive is boring/useless as nothing encourages you to stay weak for the benefit."

these 2 are true tho. The rest of her kit needs some buffing, bit is fine otherwise

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

9 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

 

these 2 are true tho. The rest of her kit needs some buffing, bit is fine otherwise

As i've said energy is energy regardless of where you get it.  You can say that you wish her 3 did a bit more for you.  But specifically saying it's a bad ability because we can get energy else where is just a low effort complaint.  I would say her passive like basically any other passive in the game is niche in use.  There are really maybe 1-3 actually bad passives in the game currently.  Just because you can't realistically take advantage of her bonus damage consistently doesn't make it bad.  Embers passive is weird and niche unless you proc it yourself.  either way it's still a strong passive.  Same applies to Garuda.

[DeMonkey]

35 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You don't need much range

I disagree, I think range is one of the most important stats for her.

You can get incredible leaps with her #1/#2, mines at 70m currently, allowing you to melee anything and everything.

The 'splosion from her #1 has scaling damage anyway, so building for range over power is better for that.

Bigger radius on her heal, allowing you greater freedom of movement and allowing you to heal allies more effectively.

Edited November 12, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Kyoresh]

17 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You can get incredible leaps with her #1/#2, mines at 70m currently, allowing you to melee anything and everything.

but do you really need that?

I mean mine is at 45 and already feels overkill.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

but do you really need that?

Edited November 12, 2018 by DeMonkey

[seprent]

32 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I disagree, I think range is one of the most important stats for her.

You can get incredible leaps with her #1/#2, mines at 70m currently, allowing you to melee anything and everything.

The 'splosion from her #1 has scaling damage anyway, so building for range over power is better for that.

Bigger radius on her heal, allowing you greater freedom of movement and allowing you to heal allies more effectively.

i feel bad for the corpus that just sees you leaping at them or their friend from 230 (rounded up) feet away 

[Kyoresh]

14 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

k den.

 

I wont bother you anymore. Let me just leave, while you jump across the Orb Vallis ^^

Edited November 13, 2018 by Kyoresh

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

35 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I disagree, I think range is one of the most important stats for her.

You can get incredible leaps with her #1/#2, mines at 70m currently, allowing you to melee anything and everything.

The 'splosion from her #1 has scaling damage anyway, so building for range over power is better for that.

Bigger radius on her heal, allowing you greater freedom of movement and allowing you to heal allies more effectively.

If you're going for a melee based build then yes range is much more important.  I was speaking about the build that needs 200% strength specifically.

[DrBorris]

I mean, she's fine right? No need to be better, mediocrity is the standard all Warframes should meet, nothing more.

[SinergyX]

Meh I just put her on the shelf with my other 'I only got it for mastery' frames, its fun to play around a few times but that's about it. 

Her weapon and 1, meh I got Valkyr with augment. Her 2 is a strong CC (but Khora's I like more), the healing is okish.

3 is usefull against infested that do massive energy drain. Her 4 is just nice to see a bunch of slash procs, for the damage (specialy not elite onslaught) u don't use it.

There are worse frames out there :P

Edited November 13, 2018 by SinergyX

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

15 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I mean, she's fine right? No need to be better, mediocrity is the standard all Warframes should meet, nothing more.

As I said.  She isn't perfect.  Nor was I implying that she can't be buffed in some fashion.  Merely pointing out that a majority of the complaints are personal preference based on what they want the frame to do.  Also if being able to drop a scaling nuke that benefits your entire team is mediocrity then I really don't want to be associated with the majority anymore.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 minutes ago, SinergyX said:

Meh I just put her on the shelf with my other 'I only got it for mastery' frames, its fun to play around a few times but that's about it. 

Her weapon and 1, meh I got Valkyr with augment. Her 2 is a strong CC (but Khora's I like more), the healing is okish.

3 is usefull against infested that do massive energy drain. Her 4 is just nice to see a bunch of slash procs, for the damage (specialy not elite onslaught) u don't use it.

There are worse frames out there 😛

True.  if you were going for a melee frame a hyper focused eternal war build is probably better.

I mean I don't see how she can be considered bad.  Unless you're the kinda person that cares for min maxing (in other words using the best things out there) that is.  (also you is not directed at you just speaking in the general sense.

[DeMonkey]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If you're going for a melee based build then yes range is much more important.  I was speaking about the build that needs 200% strength specifically.

Melee based is the only valid build. 

I mean, the 62% bleed chance with my #4 is more than enough. You don't need 100% imo when you're firing so many shots and so many abilities are going off, each with a 62% chance, I don't see any value in it...

35 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

k den.

 

I wont bother you anymore. Let me just leave, while you jump across the Orb Vallis ^^

No leaving allowed.

Edited November 13, 2018 by DeMonkey

[(PSN)robotwars7]

just want to remind everyone that Garuda will probably be changed before she hits console.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

54 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Melee based is the only valid build. 

I mean, the 62% bleed chance with my #4 is more than enough. You don't need 100% imo when you're firing so many shots and so many abilities are going off, each with a 62% chance, I don't see any value in it...

No leaving allowed.

I wouldn't doubt it.  But you know people.  Gobba push the limit.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

just want to remind everyone that Garuda will probably be changed before she hits console.

Probably. But I don't see any major ability changes function wise happening.

[Redfeather75]

The good thing about her 4 is that it means people don't have to rely on hunter munitions so much.

[seprent]

23 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

The good thing about her 4 is that it means people don't have to rely on hunter munitions so much.

slash procs stack buddy 

so why not both everything is a blood donation machine to garuda or anyone with a hunter munition gun like my critgnis wraith who would have known fire is so sharp

[Nocontents]

25 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

The good thing about her 4 is that it means people don't have to rely on hunter munitions so much.

Eh, unless you're doing endurance run I don't think hunter munition is very helpful to your dps.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

59 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

The good thing about her 4 is that it means people don't have to rely on hunter munitions so much.

I didn't realize people still used hunter munitions regularly.  Thought the hype of that died down awhile ago.

[MudShadow]

 

What Garuda brings to the table just isn't anything that special compared to what's in the game already. Her kit is nothing to write home about.

Dread mirror. Well ASH has teleport already. Fatal teleport is a better offensive skill than Dread Mirror.

The shield, would be good if it wasn't for the fact that her 1 nuke is pretty much trash. Volt's shield is better.

Blood Alter and Bloodletting. Nothing special.

Her ULT, good but it's not going to save the rest of her kit.Also the fact that it's not spam able with the press of a button and has a long casting animation kills her fluidity somewhat.

[(PSN)Krikenemp]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The mirror being only one way is meant to give you breathing room while you heal up with blood altar or if you're charging into enemies

How does a 2D wall give you breathing room if you're "charging into enemies" and getting surround? Volt isn't designed mostly for melee combat even if he is good at it. He also doesn't regularly reduce himself to 2% HP when he does go melee.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The damage buff is a cherry on top.

A cherry that you're encouraged to not eat. See, I don't understand this mentality. Why would it not be better to replace that with something that is meant to be used? What is the argument for giving abilities useless effects that are designed to be pointless? Why would you ever be okay with that? What's even worse is that it's not only this ability affected, but also her entire passive becomes utterly useless if you're not intended to want to stay at low health.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Am I saying I wouldn't like a frame that plays around low health?  No.  I'm just saying that's not garuda.

Then why give her not only a passive solely based on playing with low health, and an ability with half its purpose being the same? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Passives should not play a massive role in kit performance.  Inaro's passive is hella good.  But do you use it often?  Not really.  But it's still nice to have.

They should play some role. There's a big difference between Iaros' passive being "nice to have" and Garuda's being entirely pointless because literally all it does is incentivize something you're apparently never supposed to do.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I didn't realize people still used hunter munitions regularly.  Thought the hype of that died down awhile ago.

It's legitimately powerful on some weapons. Why would people stop using useful things just because time has passed?

[dEjAvU5566]

Her passive is somewhat contradict to the skill set and underwhelming. 

Nature talent skill 1 should be default cast speed, it's slow and clunky, sometimes doesn't even strike down enemy.

Charge 1 scale with level so I'm fine with it. (In otherword, no use in low level for such time consumeing damage building)

Also 4 charge time should faster, its only cone shape, not 360 degree, what's the need to charge so long.

 

[stormy505]

she doesn't "feel" weak but... i can't find a reason to use her over any other frames....

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

5 hours ago, MudShadow said:

 

What Garuda brings to the table just isn't anything that special compared to what's in the game already. Her kit is nothing to write home about.

Dread mirror. Well ASH has teleport already. Fatal teleport is a better offensive skill than Dread Mirror.

The shield, would be good if it wasn't for the fact that her 1 nuke is pretty much trash. Volt's shield is better.

Blood Alter and Bloodletting. Nothing special.

Her ULT, good but it's not going to save the rest of her kit.Also the fact that it's not spam able with the press of a button and has a long casting animation kills her fluidity somewhat.

How many frames are we at now?  How many can you truly call unique?  It's VERY easy to draw comparisons between kits.  Sure she doesn't bring anything mechanically new but looking at her gameplay she doesn't seem to play anything like any frame I currently own.  Imo that's what matters most.