Nerf my guns but don't nerf the enemies!

[Royzen]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

"Sorry to burst your bubble (fedora smile) but ENDGAME for ME is level 300+ enemies". Yeah, that pretty much tells me you enjoy sitting for 3 hours in a survival mission just to call yourself the king of challenge and drop it around in the forums as in a weird flex to validate your weird points.

That doesn't even make any sense whatsoever. Seriously, what is the correlation between making enemies in the vallis deal the damage they used to deal initially as "telling all new players they don't matter"? õ_o

Yes, which is why I chose Bounty lvl 5 instead of bounties lvl 1 or 2, which are meant for newer players. Problem is that now Bounty lvl 5 enemies are using toy guns instead of Plasmors and Opticors, capiche?

Interessting you rewriting what I have written and put stuff in it that wasn't there. I never said I did survival and I will not need 3 hours to get there, that would be very slow and not very efficient.
You didn't even read what you have written earlier, that we all can see now.

And no where it is written down or ever said, that bounties lvl 1 and 2 are only for new player, the game as complett is for everyone, even bounties 5 are for people with mr 3, if they can do it.

But as we can read more and more, you are not really interessted in a civilicated communication, so maybe we should stop here befor it gets out of hand.

[Miser_able]

7 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

The plains were on the first planet. Your point is...

And the plains used to harder, till de lowered their damage. 

Your point is...

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Royzen:

Well the interessting part is, he claims that they shall nerf his weapons, but would not like to nerf his own guns.

yup but since he didnt say anything about that in the first post i guessed it might be just a reference to the recent Rivennerfs, which are ok for him in that case.

[Nitro747]

10 minutes ago, Royzen said:

Interessting you rewriting what I have written and put stuff in it that wasn't there. I never said I did survival and I will not need 3 hours to get there, that would be very slow and not very efficient.
You didn't even read what you have written earlier, that we all can see now.

And no where it is written down or ever said, that bounties lvl 1 and 2 are only for new player, the game as complett is for everyone, even bounties 5 are for people with mr 3, if they can do it.

But as we can read more and more, you are not really interessted in a civilicated communication, so maybe we should stop here befor it gets out of hand.

It gets a bit hard when I'm having to read such terrible writing and I'm don't mean harm but the last couple of posts are very hard to take any sense out of it.

And it looks like you are not making any sense on purpose. Bounties lvl 1 and 2 are geared towards newer players. The enemies are weaker and the rewards reflect that; plus, they are more suited to newer players. A lvl 5 bounty is in no way for MR3 people unless they want to run around not knowing what to do and get killed every 5 seconds. You are taking an out of ordinary preposition and trying to turn it into norm and use it as some jebaited argument of "see, new players can also make the hardest missions" while you complain that I'm asking for the enemies to deal damage equal to what it was at launch.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Nitro747

[Nitro747]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

yup but since he didnt say anything about that in the first post i guessed it might be just a reference to the recent Rivennerfs, which are ok for him in that case.

And yes, it is an (obvious) reference to riven nerfs.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Nitro747

[DreisterDino]

Gerade eben schrieb Nitro747:

And yes, it is an (obvious) reference to riven nerfs.

not tooo obvious as it seems^^

[Royzen]

Gerade eben schrieb DreisterDino:

yup but since he didnt say anything about that in the first post i guessed it might be just a reference to the recent Rivennerfs, which are ok for him in that case.

yeah, I understood it to the "nerf" if we can call it that way. where they did this

• Lowered Terra Plasmor Crewman base damage from 30 to 25.
• Lowered Terra Raptor SX base damage from 30 to 25 and base area damage from 75 to 40.
• Lowered Terra Embattor MOA bounce mine damage from 150 to 75.
• Lowered Terra Sniper Crewman base damage from 60 to 45.
• Lowered Terra Overtaker base damage from 120 to 60 and area damage from 50 to 25.
• Lowered Terra Jailer area damage from 50 to 20.

[Royzen]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

And yes, it is an (obvious) reference to riven nerfs.

 

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

 that I'm asking for the enemies to deal damage equal to what it was at launch.

so what is it now?

[Lost_Cartographer]

Enemies were scaling way too hard in the Vallis.  Level 20-30 was feeling spongy (and they're Corpus!) and several units were capable of near if not totally one-shotting my Mag Prime equipped with shield and health mods.  Level 60 Bombards on PoE aren't nearly as tough as Overtakers (whom have homing projectiles) and combas (whom shut down powers) are at level 40.  It was ridiculous.  And those spawn almost exclusively at alert level 4.

So yeah, if you want enemies to be lethal and take a few hits, use a sub-optimal weapon/mod setup.  Think that's the wrong way to do it, then you must be the type to complain about games like DOOM being too easy when you set the difficulty to "I'm Too Young to Die!"  Some of Warframe's challenge is found in playing in a non-meta, non-min-maxing way.  If you're just shutting everything down with CC and one-shotting level 100's with an explosive weapon that deals absurd levels of damage, then I'm sorry, but there can be no challenge for you because you've basically stripped any attempt at it from your own game play.  It's your fault if you abuse shut-down&delete builds, and nothing short of what some call "cheese/cheap" enemy defenses (like nullifiers) can fix that.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Littleman88

[Royzen]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Littleman88:

Enemies were scaling way too hard in the Vallis.  Level 20-30 was feeling spongy (and they're Corpus!) and several units were capable of near if not totally one-shotting my Mag Prime equipped with shield and health mods.  Level 60 Bombards on PoE aren't nearly as tough as Overtakers (whom have homing projectiles) and combas (whom shut down powers) are at level 40.  It was ridiculous.  And those spawn almost exclusively at alert level 4.

So yeah, if you want enemies to be lethal and take a few hits, use a sub-optimal weapon/mod setup.  Think that's the wrong way to do it, then you must be the type to complain about games like DOOM being too easy when you set the difficulty to "I'm Too Young to Die!"  Some of Warframe's challenge is found in playing in a non-meta, non-min-maxing way.  If you're just shutting everything down with CC and one-shotting level 100's with an explosive weapon that deals absurd levels of damage, then I'm sorry, but there can be no challenge for you because you've basically stripped any attempt at it from your own game play.  It's your fault if you abuse shut-down&delete builds, and nothing short of what some call "cheese/cheap" enemy defenses (like nullifiers) can fix that.

 

This, I second

[Nitro747]

5 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

 It's your fault if you abuse shut-down&delete builds, and nothing short of what some call "cheese/cheap" enemy defenses (like nullifiers) can fix that.

 

And how do you know I use only cheese builds, specially in the Vallis? 🤔

They dealt more damage than the usual Corpus units? Yes, but some Corpus units were always known for shredding through us faster than any Bombard.
They were spongy? No. They have relatively the same amount of health and shields than their usual Corpus counterparts, you probably felt it that way because of falloff.
Did all of this justify their overall damage output by FIFTY PER CENT? Absolutely no. If it was 15%, 20% on a nerf it would be enough, but cutting their overall dps by half was just too much.

[Lost_Cartographer]

6 minutes ago, Nitro747 said:

And how do you know I use only cheese builds, specially in the Vallis? 🤔

They dealt more damage than the usual Corpus units? Yes, but some Corpus units were always known for shredding through us faster than any Bombard.
They were spongy? No. They have relatively the same amount of health and shields than their usual Corpus counterparts, you probably felt it that way because of falloff.
Did all of this justify their overall damage output by FIFTY PER CENT? Absolutely no. If it was 15%, 20% on a nerf it would be enough, but cutting their overall dps by half was just too much.

No, it wasn't.  Not when an overtaker can easily chunk through 1300 shielding in nearly two hits at levels 20-30 while rapid firing off homing plasma.  And there are multiples of them.  They're the one's that took the biggest hit for a reason.  And they ARE spongy.  Maybe try level 4 alerts, and use something that is more middling that would still perform well even on level 40 Grineer.

Hell, here's a golden standard - try it with the Braton Prime.  When man-sized Corpus are tanking that thing and mulching effectively 2000 health before they even hit level 30, then yeah, DE's stats are going to show maybe some units are a bit too tough, and hitting a bit too hard.

 

But then we also have to define spongy - spongy to me is taking in the realm of 3+ seconds to drop with a rapid fire weapon.  And they quickly scale fair a bit beyond that in the Vallis, more so than the Grineer on the plains, whom feel softer.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Littleman88

[Betsill]

10 hours ago, Tengarnos said:

You know you can nerf your weapons by yourself? Just use unmodded weapons with low dmg crit etc and you have your challenge. They nerfed it since it seems a majority of players said it was way to high and well thats how democracity works. Plus Orb Vallies isnt even this high of level, so insteat demanding this to be more difficulty, why not demanding that they do it with ESO and Arbitrations? Give them a dmg buff there. But this will also be most likely not liked by the majority.

The problem with self nerfing is that

1. You have to not use the gear that you have accumulated over time. Why Get new gear and mods if you can't use them if you wanna "have fun"

2. The drop rates for loot is tuned around the average time it takes for the community to get. So by gimping yourself you might be having more fun, but you will be screwing yourself out of loot, since the drop tables were not designed for you to take that long.

I don't agree that Vallis should have been left as it was though. I did like the "challenge" and it was really refreshing to actually be worried about dying for the first time since I started playing this game back in 2013. However, the "difficulty" was just plain unfair and some of it was broken abilities or enemies that randomly ignored your def abilities. I really wish DE would make the game more challenging in a balanced and fun way. It really is a much funner and more satisfying game when I can't just one shot everything and ignore enemy dmg. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Betsill

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

The bottom line is that scaling was a bit much almost right off the bat.  At the risk of sounding logical (a forum taboo), I'll say it: While it might seem to be an excessive nerf to some, the facts are that the content was intended to be enjoyable to everyone.  Not just for newbies, not just for vets, everyone.  In a game where you have so much control over how difficult or easy your own experience is, why interfere with someone else's? 

As was mentioned earlier, PoE enemies were also adjusted due to similar issues.  Feedback was given, and DE responded.  Those are the facts.

Edited November 13, 2018 by (XB1)Thy Divinity

[Nitro747]

21 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

No, it wasn't.  Not when an overtaker can easily chunk through 1300 shielding in nearly two hits at levels 20-30 while rapid firing off homing plasma.

I mean, shields are wack in this game, they don't take into consideration any sort of dmg reduction and is something people be complaining about for a while.

[MasterChief_Prime]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Nitro747:

Orb Vallis was basically the only really challenging place where I could have some actual fun not just because enemies were immovable hyper armored one-shot killing machines but because they are mobile, varied and dealt decent amounts of damage. Now it almost looks like they are hitting us with toy guns instead of a god damned Opticor or Plasmor. Warframe is already easy enough, ESO and Arbitrations only provided artificial difficulty by adding a timer or invincibility drones, why can't a place like the Vallis be as challenging as it was during the launch?

"Oh, but newer players were complaining and..."

So they squad up? They grind to get better stuff and learn how to deal with difficult enemies? Do lower level missions? We all have 5 free revives + having an ally reviving us is infinite, dying in this game isn't that much of a big deal anyways.

Buff them again!

Ok , so as first my grammar is horrible so i apologies 

So as first it was funny that u say u like it for exactly the reason it got nerfed , even vetereans got one-shotted , and in odrder to do those halfway decently i had to mod in more shields , more life , and an adaptation (which u only can obtain via arbitrations , which u cant do if u havent done evry mission in the system , which is impossible for newer players that start to explore this open world to obtain )  so without those mods , i couldnt even revive a teammate without being killed in almost an instant (well you could use the operator and voidwalk or whatever its called to get em up at that point , but i dunno at which MR requirement the mission had to unlock the operator so i stand to the basics)  ,  also i was using weapons that arent a damn opticor which was MR 14 or an arca plasmor which is MR 10 just to see how newer players feel , and i didnt do that well like u gotta think about that , newer players will go to fortuna because its new and they want to explore this masterpiece , but are almost unable to do anything there because in order to survive or kill the enemys they need weapons that require a way higher MR or Mods they cant obtain yet , and pls dont say "they just gotta buy it " since players shouldnt be forced to buy platinum or weapons , u can obtain anything with enought time and effort on your own without paying anything thats what i always loved about warframe  but th point im trying to make is , for newer players it was almost impossible if you (A MR 25 player) says they were one-shot machines where even you had your troubles just think about how new players feel , if a new players go there and get they ass kicked they probably stop playing , and if u cant get newer or hold new/newer players which are hella important for this game to stay alive for the next 17 years or something i hope , u only can lose players that stop playing , and i highly doubt DE wants a dying playerbase so that just a minor percent like lemme say 7% of players like you are happy actually as i started to read this post i didnt wanted to log in but i just had to respond since it was so ridicoulus i couldnt hold it back , again sorry for my grammar , and if u attack my grammar now it only shows how little to no arguments you have ,  like the great ben shapiro once said : "Facts dont care about your feelings"  , Master Chief out o7

[White_Matter]

If you want challenge, go to Profit temple at the hardest bounty. You'll get high level enemy spawns, including lvl 100+ jackal and raptor like drones and those arachnids. 

 

[Riger82]

I would agree with higher tier bounties. But I support the damage nerf, too. My nidus, who face tanks in level 100 sorties and laughs, was being absolutely murdered by level 50 mobs. Their damage was nuts, lol.

[Spectre-8]

12 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

Orb Vallis was basically the only really challenging place where I could have some actual fun not just because enemies were immovable hyper armored one-shot killing machines but because they are mobile, varied and dealt decent amounts of damage. Now it almost looks like they are hitting us with toy guns instead of a god damned Opticor or Plasmor. Warframe is already easy enough, ESO and Arbitrations only provided artificial difficulty by adding a timer or invincibility drones, why can't a place like the Vallis be as challenging as it was during the launch?

"Oh, but newer players were complaining and..."

So they squad up? They grind to get better stuff and learn how to deal with difficult enemies? Do lower level missions? We all have 5 free revives + having an ally reviving us is infinite, dying in this game isn't that much of a big deal anyways.

Buff them again!

Remove the mods from your guns and nerf them yourself  🤣

[Nitro747]

28 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

Remove the mods from your guns and nerf them yourself  🤣

Comedy gold right here, I've never seen anyone making this joke of an "argument" before.

If push comes to shove and all this community can say about added challenge is "unmod your weapons" then I'll just say that if you can't take Fortuna open world because it's "too hard", simple: just don't play it. Play tier 1 bounty. If you keep dying even with a full squad with infinite revives, then go back to the tutorial, instead of crybabying constantly for nerfs and providing non-arguments in the forums for people who actually care about the game.

[Erytroxylin]

Oh they patched it? I guess that's why it felt like I could afk and not die even on squishy frames lol

[MasterChief_Prime]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Nitro747:

Comedy gold right here, I've never seen anyone making this joke of an "argument" before.

If push comes to shove and all this community can say about added challenge is "unmod your weapons" then I'll just say that if you can't take Fortuna open world because it's "too hard", simple: just don't play it. Play tier 1 bounty. If you keep dying even with a full squad with infinite revives, then go back to the tutorial, instead of crybabying constantly for nerfs and providing non-arguments in the forums for people who actually care about the game.

Look , its your problem mate , you want the entire open world to change just for you , instead of unmodding your weapons and playing with low mr weapons and not using your operator ,or rivens /primed   mods  or arbitration mods or anything that makes ya invulnerable most of the time like rhino or a limbo (who just stands in the rift doing nothing to add anything to the party while taking no dmg or something while in the rift and making a forum post about how the second open world isnt hard enough for his MR25 liking and how all those new players are just "crybabys" even tho they arent remotely near to the collections of mods and frames he owns ) or a setinel with revive or primed revive and sacrifice do the highest bounty and maybe its hard or you find your face straight in the dirt , then imagine how low MR people felt before ,  and wth is this "people who actually care about the game "  if you would really care for the game you wouldnt talk like this , like evryone except you is "good at the game and loves the challenge " and totally not some stubborn person who wants evrything to change for his liking ,  Maybe veterans like you think its a challenge , new players think its almost impossible like my previous reply to this thread how it works with new players , And all you do to someone who tells you how to keep "this challenge" you pretend to like so much  without your mods and stuff u obtained over all this time all do is complain do it, Unmod your stuff take low MR , theres your challenge but like a stubborn lil kid that wont accept that an entire open world wont change just cause u want to  just *@##$ around that solution , and it wont change the fact that that is the only solution for your problem 

[Brorelia]

13 hours ago, Tengarnos said:

You know you can nerf your weapons by yourself? Just use unmodded weapons with low dmg crit etc and you have your challenge. They nerfed it since it seems a majority of players said it was way to high and well thats how democracity works. Plus Orb Vallies isnt even this high of level, so insteat demanding this to be more difficulty, why not demanding that they do it with ESO and Arbitrations? Give them a dmg buff there. But this will also be most likely not liked by the majority.

Well by that logic why not delete serration, hornet strike and pressure point?

[Nitro747]

19 minutes ago, MasterChief_Prime said:

Look , its your problem mate , you want the entire open world to change just for you , instead of unmodding your weapons and playing with low mr weapons and not using your operator ,or rivens /primed   mods  or arbitration mods or anything that makes ya invulnerable most of the time like rhino or a limbo

It's not my problem when they nerf for everybody the damage. I don't think you can understand some simple concepts or judging by your awful grammar,  but no one is talking on how fast WE kill Fortuna enemies but rather how much damage the enemies deal to us, players. Get this downright stupid argument of "JuSt DoN'T uSe SerRaTIoN" outta here because I'm sure you are repeating it like a robot just because other people keep repeating it.

Again: if you can't go into a content and simply survive through it, even with 3 other players out there being able to revive you, its simple: go play the rest of the content, get better and then return to Fortuna, instead of asking to get everything handed to you and asking a nerf to enemie's capacities. What next? Will you ask DE to turn off enemy AI? Deal negative damage?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Nitro747

[DiceyDelphic]

Feel free to critique away, but here's a thought:

I feel like the nerfs should have been only applied to the starting quest and the first 2 maybe 3 bounty level missions, focusing more on level lowering and/ or a much less drastic nerf. Newer players shouldn't be punished for trying to get in I agree with, however the stakes which the planet is under suggest there should be at least something truly formidable.

From my personal experience a year ago, when I was a lil nooby noob, I remember the first time I got my butt handed back multiple times on a silver platter on earth while doing a Excavation mission realizing I was in some deep water. For once, the enemy was actually fighting back with a force to respect. While it was aggravating at first, it gave me a goal in the future while playing this game: "how do I get stronger?" Or perhaps "How should I fight this?" The time spent complaining was instead used to learn how the game works. I don't need to explain my story most people who've played this I imagine have done it or are in progress of doing so. That being said, here are a few reasons why the difficulty should not be robbed entirely from older players, as well as solutions to the problem:

1. The Nef Anyo in charge:
   • I know new players do not understand who Nef Anyo is, but I feel insulted that someone blessed by the void (considering who Else is blessed by the void, no not Captain Vor- look in the mirror kiddo) suddenly becomes a push over. It is hard to kill his forces,  gee I wonder why. Giant spiders fall out of the sky at hyper sonic speeds I mean woah now, you can't just kill that in a few shots, that ain't right (though the spiders seeing you while cloaked is a bit triggering lol).
   • The level scaling I do agree could use a tweak when your detection meter or whatever stars go up; perhaps it increases in scale faster depending on the difficulty of the mission or region (if it hasn't before). Perhaps the scaling, for example, goes up at most 2 level increases per star for the first 2 bounty types, but for each 10 level increase staring maybe at 30, enemies increase a level up further each star. An example being level 50 you get 4 levels up per threat rating. This is considering a lesser version of these nerfs or no nerfs at all bear in mind.
     • An alternative solution then would be to increase the difficulty of the bounties after the first 2, reasonably scaling higher to fit all more appropriately
2. The Corpus have some weak defense objectives:
   • If anything, I've noticed enemies are decimating objectives much faster than ever (so I've noticed at times at least, even using Gara's 90% damage reduction on target); even on star one ratings. A quick fix would be to scale the health values of these objectives to match the initial enemy spawns from the highest star rating respectively depending on the mission. Of course maybe the enemies are just using already "op" weapons, but raising the health of these objectives over nerfing the planet sounds more reasonable.
3. I don't play farm simulators for a reason, let me play how I want to play too:
   • Listen here all you nuggets saying to just remove my mods for a real challenge: go play the first 3 bounty mission difficulties and have fun. I don't want to ruin your fun but I'm not gonna ruin my fun either just because I like to have fun actually fighting with a real threat. Ticker's got your back if you need debt stuff to rank up now; you can have fun without feeling burdened to do impossible missions. Personally, I find it insulting that the gear I got after a year of playing to be once again too good for the average mission.  Arbitration exists sure. Sorties exist....for 3 missions per day ok then. I could waste an hour in survival doing the same trivial thing. Here we are though: It's an tiny colony of workers oppressed by some armada we barely have even scratched the surface of...or at least we are now. All we've had to face were a bunch of robot sandbag bosses that keep getting rebuilt (Screw Europa though lowkey), a confused Salad V, Saucy Sargent, and Grofit man himself. Grofit is dead though he doesn't count now. Nef Anyo never was even a boss to fight indirectly from my memory, correct me if I'm wrong. If this man runs enemies on the Index hard and steady, You better expect Fortuna to be in for one hell of a ride. Just ask Legs how easy this update should be. (no solutions here this is just my bias opinion)

Bottom line if you didn't read anything above:

1. This is Nef Anyo's troops, some guy you access on Neptune with some beefy bois. Nerf the starting mission level caps for the Introduction quest and first 2-3 bounties to cater to the new people, but leave the hard missions alone. You can always ask Ticker for help if you need Familial/ Advanced debts
2. If anything, the health pools of objectives I feel should be updated. Make them match the initial max difficulty threat meter of the bounty or region you're in. I've watched enough health pools be decimated by no star enemies, it's bad enough  dealing with 6 excavators like geez. Nerf the excavator population why don't you first.
3.  It's been almost a year for me at least and I can safely say: most fights are boring. Why should I remove my mods from my gear and forma my stuff again just to have a challenge? If you're a new player, my heart goes out to you, but a lot of people can't enjoy the game if the game the stays the same old difficulty- once again becoming just a lawn mower simulator with Corpus head trimmings.

If you're going to nerf Fortuna, nerf it with a little more dignity. I'm starting to feel bad for some of the enemies like 50% damage nerf? It went from destroyer of worlds to kiddie Kit Kat biter. Most of the enemies are now doing less damage, so I guess you can exist in peace 5 seconds longer, considering if you're dying constantly already. I love this game with a passion, and I'd hate to see the whole PLANET get nerfed just because  it's too hard in the beginning. That being said, I still feel that the enemies were little too Hard to deal with pre-nerf; so a difficulty tweak for the bounty missions and a lighter nerf would be fine in my book. If you have any better ideas on how to balance the nerf, instead of bickering what's right and what's wrong, feel free to positively bring the conversation to a more productive direction that pleases both parties? If you have opposing views, feel free to throw shade in but with some valid points too. After all, this is just my perspective. (also if any points were recycled from earlier my bad, I skimmed a little too fast after seeing heads butt in a nonproductive manor too long)

Edited November 14, 2018 by DiceyDelphic