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MASSIVE QoL Change for the Entire Game


Tamurlane_Aloia
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TL;DR - Implement the red, bold, underlined sentence fragment in Warframe to make the world a better place.

Atlas' Landslide is a combo-oriented, repeat-cast, small-AoE DPS ability that incentivizes the player to be constantly using it, as it grants invulnerability while casting and is pretty effective as a DPS ability, all things considered. Nidus' Virulence is a stack-building, repeat-cast, line AoE DPS ability with a relatively long ramp up to its full effectiveness, as Nidus can build up to 100 stacks, that players are basically required to use to reach Nidus' full potential as a Warframe since most of his abilities are built around Virulence. The Akbolto Prime is a crit-focused, high magazine size, semi-auto secondary weapon that has a base fire rate of 7 rounds per second.

What do these two abilities and this weapon all have in common? Arthritis. Bone marrow grinding. Finger cramping. Arthritis. Warframe is a horde-shooting power fantasy at its heart and that is reflected in the gameplay and "meta," especially in modes like sanctuary onslaught and fissure missions. There are A LOT of enemies that need to be killed, which, in the case of non full auto or massive AoE weapons and abilities, means the player has A LOT of clicking to do before the job is done. Such as when you extract from an hour-long survival fissure as Atlas with 1500 ability casts and a nagging pain in your left ring finger. Or when you go into a sortie three mission with augmented enemy armor and your crit focused semi-auto secondary with minimal armor stripping capability in hand and come out with a lot of headshot kills and a broken mouse that needs to be replaced because its 2 million click lifespan was used up in 8 minutes. Or when you drop into a forty minute arbitration mission to get those sweet sweet rotation C rewards as Nidus and you come out 6,000 endo richer but feeling 60 years older because you have ARTHRITIS from a video game.

So now comes the solution to this perpetual pandemic of pained players. And the solution is already implemented in the game in a weapon called the Battacor. The Battacor is listed as an Auto Burst primary weapon. What this means is if you hold the trigger on this burst fire weapon, it will automagically keep firing burst shots at the maximum fire rate you have modded the weapon at until you release the trigger. Take that concept and apply it to all semi-auto, burst, non charged shot firing weapons and all spam intensive, non channeling or duration timer based, repeat cast abilities and you have THE answer. Repeated shooting and casting at the max speed of the current mod setup as long as the player is holding the activation button for that weapon or ability.

Some peripherals and maybe extensions of this functionality that could be included is an option in the settings to turn this effect on or off for abilities and weapons separately, the option to make this effect into a toggle so for some really long periods of spamming you don't have the problem of the old sprint system where you are cramping a finger by holding a button to keep up an effect, and maybe consider giving melee the same functionality since berserker and primed fury on sparring weapons and the like can make it impossible to do the basic combos because you cannot click fast enough to keep up with the maximum possible attack speed. That last one is a bit tenuous though since melee 3.0 is not out yet and could change that system drastically, also it kinda kills all the hold and pause combos (not that those are hugely popular or easy to carry out under normal circumstances anyway).

This change is purely beneficial to the player since it is the horde gaming equivalent of a cure for cancer, and it does not make the player any more powerful since it does not increase the possible output of the player's weapons or abilities, it just keeps them from needing to have macro capable hardware or the willingness to sacrifice a finger for the cause of maximum efficiency. The only possible exploit I could imagine resulting from this is being able to cheat the AFK timer in a larger variety of ways than is already available in plenty. 

Some smaller details that would be appreciated if this was implemented for abilities, only play the "this ability cannot be cast" sound when the ability cannot be cast due to energy reasons since if you are holding or toggling an ability in this fashion the conditions for the ability to be used may not always be met due to surrounding circumstances but the ability might be in immediate use the next moment. The best example I can think of this is Atlas' Landslide which requires a target in range and energy. If you are holding or toggling this ability and jumping from one group to the next, hearing the "this ability cannot be used" sound and effect repeated in the between stages would be annoying. Personally, I think this entire implementation for abilities would need to be considered on a case by case basis since there is such a variety of abilities and casting styles that it might be difficult to make hard and fast rules for what can be repeated and what cannot. But I do think that certain abilities, like the two listed above, are in DESPERATE need of this kind of utility.

Well I managed to type this in under two hours I think, so early lunch for Konzu! If you made it this far without taking the tl;dr route out or even made it to this post at all, I congratulate you for your persistence and interest, and thank you for your consideration.

Swazdo-lah killer!

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Turning all weapons and abilities to full auto is not a quality of life increase.  Since it makes actual single shots more difficult, it will waste ammo, and since it would also affect abilities, it would waste energy.  It's a quality of life decrease.

If repeatedly pressing a button isn't your thing, use an actual full auto weapon, or a beam weapon.

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8 hours ago, Phatose said:

Turning all weapons and abilities to full auto is not a quality of life increase.  Since it makes actual single shots more difficult, it will waste ammo, and since it would also affect abilities, it would waste energy.  It's a quality of life decrease.

If repeatedly pressing a button isn't your thing, use an actual full auto weapon, or a beam weapon.

I did not say turn everything into full-auto. I said make the specified types of weapons and abiliities have the option to be shot and cast at their currently modded maximum fire rate and casting speed while their activation trigger is being held. That is a massive difference from what you are saying. You can still use them as single shot weapons or abilities. Even when you hold the button down, they will not shoot or cast any faster than they would if you were click-spamming, if you were click-spamming fast enough to meet the maximum fire rate or casting speed.

Edit: I thought of a good analogy for what I mean that I think you can easily understand. If you want to type a lot of a single character in some text chat or document, you can spam it by pressing the button over and over again like so

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

or you can use the utility of holding the button down to get the same effect at the same speed (if you were pressing fast enough before)

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I hope this helps you understand the intent. I use all kinds of weapons and frames, I just want to be able to enjoy some at their full potential without having to be spammy.

Edited by Tamurlane_Aloia
Analogy
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8 hours ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

I want a toggle melee for controllers or make it use the weapon fire button when equipped, the new sentient slayer sword is so awesome but I only used it a couple times because of the stress it puts on my controller. Same goes for Excaliburs exalted blade

I totally get it from the console side too since I used to play console myself. Some of these QoL changes would be even more beneficial to console than to PC, and I would hope if these changes were implemented, they would translate in some way to console as well.

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2 hours ago, Tamurlane_Aloia said:

I did not say turn everything into full-auto. I said make the specified types of weapons and abiliities have the option to be shot and cast at their currently modded maximum fire rate and casting speed while their activation trigger is being held. That is a massive difference from what you are saying. You can still use them as single shot weapons or abilities. Even when you hold the button down, they will not shoot or cast any faster than they would if you were click-spamming, if you were click-spamming fast enough to meet the maximum fire rate or casting speed.

Edit: I thought of a good analogy for what I mean that I think you can easily understand. If you want to type a lot of a single character in some text chat or document, you can spam it by pressing the button over and over again like so

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

or you can use the utility of holding the button down to get the same effect at the same speed (if you were pressing fast enough before)

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

I hope this helps you understand the intent. I use all kinds of weapons and frames, I just want to be able to enjoy some at their full potential without having to be spammy.

That isn't a difference.  Hold down trigger, fire rapidly continuously as long as the trigger is held down is what you are describing.  That is exactly what you are describing.

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10 minutes ago, Phatose said:

That isn't a difference.  Hold down trigger, fire rapidly continuously as long as the trigger is held down is what you are describing.  That is exactly what you are describing.

Not exactly. Consider a weapon like the Vectis Prime. If my change was implemented, it would not suddenly become a rapid-fire machine gun with two bullets in the magazine. It would fire once with all the same recoil as a single shot, then fire again with that same recoil at a fire rate of 2.67 rounds per second as specified in its description unless it has been moded for greater fire rate. Click once, fire once. Hold trigger, fire at the maximum fire rate of the weapon as currently modded. This change is not meant to benefit weapons like the Vectis Prime, but it serves as a good example to dispel your idea that I want all weapons "rapid firing continuously." If this change went through unannounced, nobody would even know it was active unless they held down the trigger on a semi-auto or burst weapon. When Mesa first came out, a lot of people thought her regulators required you to press for each shot fired. It was not until those people held the button that her ability to automatically fire was discovered. This is the same concept. It just makes certain types of weapons and abilities less of a spamming chore to play.

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1 hour ago, Tamurlane_Aloia said:

Not exactly. Consider a weapon like the Vectis Prime. If my change was implemented, it would not suddenly become a rapid-fire machine gun with two bullets in the magazine. It would fire once with all the same recoil as a single shot, then fire again with that same recoil at a fire rate of 2.67 rounds per second as specified in its description unless it has been moded for greater fire rate. Click once, fire once. Hold trigger, fire at the maximum fire rate of the weapon as currently modded. This change is not meant to benefit weapons like the Vectis Prime, but it serves as a good example to dispel your idea that I want all weapons "rapid firing continuously." If this change went through unannounced, nobody would even know it was active unless they held down the trigger on a semi-auto or burst weapon. When Mesa first came out, a lot of people thought her regulators required you to press for each shot fired. It was not until those people held the button that her ability to automatically fire was discovered. This is the same concept. It just makes certain types of weapons and abilities less of a spamming chore to play.

I said nothing about firing speed, as firing speed isn't actually relevant.  A weapon that fires once per second, heck, once per minute as long as you hold down the trigger is by definition, full auto.  Firing speed has nothing to do with it at all - full auto  means "Keeps firing as long as you hold down the trigger".   If for example, you were to equip the braton - a full auto weapon - and then only press the button, never hold it, it fires one shot at a time.  Hold down the trigger, it fires at it's maximum fire rate constantly.   Because that's what full auto means.

Edited by Phatose
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5 minutes ago, Phatose said:

I said nothing about firing speed, as firing speed isn't actually relevant.  A weapon that fires once per second as long as you hold down the trigger is by definition, full auto.  Firing speed has nothing to do with it at all - full auto  means "Keeps firing as long as you hold down the trigger". 

You said "fire rapidly" which directly correlates to fire rate, so I addressed that misconception of what the change entailed.

I agree that fire rate does not matter when considering what is full auto and what is not. Yes, this change would make weapons behave like a full auto weapon in the sense that they "keep firing as long as you hold down the trigger." What I would like you to think of though is how that translates into the game. The difference between a weapon labeled auto and a weapon labeled semi-auto, both having the same fire rate and both being fired at their maximum fire rate, is how many times the player clicked to get that output. That is it.

If a random person saw gameplay of an Akbolto Prime and an Akstiletto Prime side by side they would say they are both fully automatic weapons with the same fire rate. Or, if a Warframe player saw that same scenario, they would know that the player firing the Akbolto has to click 7 times a second to match the single hold click of the Akstiletto user. All this change does is make the user input less demanding. Nothing on the in-game side is changed, at all. Same guns, same fire rates, same capabilities, just with the optional input of "holding to fire continuously". Below I have outlined some implementations that would help retain the weapon's identity as semi-auto while still alleviating the need on the player's end to click for every shot on high fire rate semi-auto or burst weapons.

I can sort of understand the concern that semi-auto or burst fire weapons with a high enough fire rate, and I mean a really, absurdly high fire rate, might accidentally fire a second shot immediately after the first if the player spends too long on a single click or DE programs this interaction too sensitively, but that is such an unlikely and incredibly niche scenario as to be negligible imo. I think this can even be worked around on DE's end by allowing a couple ms delay before auto firing subsequent shots..

Basically, all you are trying to defend is the requirement on the part of the player to click for every shot on weapons that have the "semi-auto" tag and to press the ability activation on each cast for every ability that rewards continuous recasting. And I respect that as a choice for the player to make. Not only could you still click for every shot if DE included this change with the few ms delay before auto shooting, I even stated in my original post that this should include an option in the settings to turn this effect on or off. So if you want to click for every shot, press 1 for every atlas punch, and play the game how you believe it should be played, you would have that ability with or without this setting being active. Nobody who has this effect active or inactive will be more or less powerful than the other so you would not be missing out in that regard, which is why this change is strictly a QoL change for those who want it.

I will not be discussing this any further with you unless you bring up a new argument that convinces me this change would be a negative addition to the game because I am pretty sure I have fully addressed all your concerns up to this point.

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So with the proposed option to hold the trigger instead of spamming it, would the Dual Toxocist (headshot passive aside) with its 1.00 fire rate or lex at 1.08 still be considered a "full-auto"? In my opinion it would still be a muzzle loader on the fire rate regardless of the held trigger, no where near what I would think of as even semi-auto. Also the frames pull the triggers not us, the controller/mouse just sends the command for them to shoot at the set fire rate, so I guess more accurately they're manual-trigger (semi) and hold-trigger (auto) then? Not sure, but its all arbitrary wording honestly.

A dual action Colt Peacemaker can act full-auto by fanning the hammer but tell people at a range you got a revolver machine gun your sure to get some laughs at you, not with you.

I agree with the arthritis (did a macro on the elite controller because I cant Lightning Lary Akbolto, not at 14.00, either you got a mean girlfriend that tortures you or a mean muscle twitch), but if I can toggle melee channel, spam and burn up energy then Im not sure how this would be detrimental or harmful to gameplay.

A full-auto at 1.00/sec is a hysterical classification, find a real pistol with that "full-auto" speed and you may have found the worst firearm in the world.

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On 2018-11-13 at 6:41 AM, Phatose said:

Turning all weapons and abilities to full auto is not a quality of life increase.  Since it makes actual single shots more difficult, it will waste ammo, and since it would also affect abilities, it would waste energy.  It's a quality of life decrease.

If repeatedly pressing a button isn't your thing, use an actual full auto weapon, or a beam weapon.

For those of us with muscle issues it is a massive quality of life addition. Due to physical ailments most semi auto weapons are simply unusable for me and I have to be careful about which frames I pick too. Adding this as an accessibility option would be great for us. 

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On 2018-11-14 at 8:22 AM, (XB1)huhsaywhat said:

So with the proposed option to hold the trigger instead of spamming it, would the Dual Toxocist (headshot passive aside) with its 1.00 fire rate or lex at 1.08 still be considered a "full-auto"? In my opinion it would still be a muzzle loader on the fire rate regardless of the held trigger, no where near what I would think of as even semi-auto. Also the frames pull the triggers not us, the controller/mouse just sends the command for them to shoot at the set fire rate, so I guess more accurately they're manual-trigger (semi) and hold-trigger (auto) then? Not sure, but its all arbitrary wording honestly.

A dual action Colt Peacemaker can act full-auto by fanning the hammer but tell people at a range you got a revolver machine gun your sure to get some laughs at you, not with you.

I agree with the arthritis (did a macro on the elite controller because I cant Lightning Lary Akbolto, not at 14.00, either you got a mean girlfriend that tortures you or a mean muscle twitch), but if I can toggle melee channel, spam and burn up energy then Im not sure how this would be detrimental or harmful to gameplay.

A full-auto at 1.00/sec is a hysterical classification, find a real pistol with that "full-auto" speed and you may have found the worst firearm in the world.

Well, the idea of this change is not to change what the weapons are designated as in-game, just how the player interacts with them. For example, the Lex would still have its trigger pulled for each shot inside of the game, but you would have the option on your end to hold to continue firing at the maximum currently modded fire rate or click for each shot.

If you define the meaning of the tags "semi-auto," "burst," "full-auto," etc, as how you interact with them, aka single click for semi and burst, hold for full auto, then yes, this change makes weapons of all those categories "fully automatic."

If you define them as what the weapons are in-game, aka the Lex is a high powered pistol, the Grakata is an automatic machine gun (or whatever it is, I'm not a gun dude), then this option does not change their tags at all. I prefer to approach this proposed option with this line of reasoning since this is a video game and our input should not be the determining factor of what something is or is not in the game. Because at that point lines get way too blurred with macros, custom keyboards, mouses, controllers, etc changing what the player's input is without having a difference on the in-game side of things. 

I hope this clears the idea that I am proposing changing anything as far as in-game weapon descriptors go, as this change is meant to be purely QoL without gameplay relevance beyond making some weapons and abilities easier to interface with.

As far as melee is concerned, in its current iteration, channeling, combos, and exalted melees could benefit from these changes as well. But since melee is getting changed soon, possibly removing channeling completely, I don't want to put too much emphasis on that since melee 3.0 might remove a lot of the spammy nature of melee from all weapons and exalted weapons which would hopefully negate the need for this option in that regard.

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22 hours ago, Drasiel said:

For those of us with muscle issues it is a massive quality of life addition. Due to physical ailments most semi auto weapons are simply unusable for me and I have to be careful about which frames I pick too. Adding this as an accessibility option would be great for us. 

I did not even think of this from that perspective, thank you for mentioning that. I may have joked about spammy weps/abilities causing me and others "arthritis," but I can definitely see how people under actual pre-existing conditions could be benefitted even more by this change.

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Oh I would certainly love this!

Due to some medication I have to take daily, I have started to develop some fibromyalgia-like symptoms (and yes, that side-effect is still preferred over the pain over NOT taking this medicine). If we could get this "full-auto" effect, that'd help me from a whole bunch of finger/hand/arm/shoulder-pain and fatigue. I mean, my case isn't even particularly severe, and it's still quite disheartening for me. So I can't really imagine the troubles "spammy stuff" can cause for those with severe issues, but I can kinda relate to how great and relieving this feature must potentially be for them!

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12 hours ago, Tamurlane_Aloia said:

I prefer to approach this proposed option with this line of reasoning since this is a video game and our input should not be the determining factor of what something is or is not in the game.

This summed up my point perfectly.

After posting I experimented in the simulacrum with 27 of my 33 secondaries, modded only for fire rate with mods anyone could have early to mid game, no corrupt or rivens.

In the process I figured out my finger joints pop like bubble wrap spamming Akbolto and then it showed me why I would use this feature if it was available, my finger got stiff and felt laggy. I want my old joints back 😭

If dogs come from eggs and cats come from scanned genes then this feature should fit in well, if the game doesn't use any common sense why should we use any with the terminology if the function remains the same? I like this idea and my hands would be thankful without a doubt.

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