Fortuna Enemy Nerf?

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Minute schrieb peterc3:

LOL.

No extra rewards? People would throw an absolute fit. If the Void is dead, Fortuna would also be dead to them because they weren't having their ego stroked and pelted by shinies.

There we go again.

I say i just want to chose the difficulty to have that gameplay experience, and the answer is
"naaaah, you are saying you dont want extra rewards, but in fact you want extra rewards"

 

What kind of discussion is this?

 

Why no just try it? i am 100% sure that there are lots of people that would do that, and DE can just gather all the data to see how much people are playing it.

If it is only 1 person (me) i will find that out pretty fast because i have to solo all the time, and DE will see that aswell and boom, there is the proof that we are all just entitled brats that want to feel better then other players, have exclusive things that only they can have and what else all guys presume about us.

 

And also, that isnt even much work to include, thats maybe like what, 1 hour of work for 1 person to add another bounty where absolutly everything is the same and the devs only have to raise the enemy lvl by a certain number.

 

If it gets played, everybody can be happy, if not you have the absolute proof for your theory.

Look at the bright side: if that gets implemented, its the ultimate killer for this annoying discussion.

You dont have to deal with stupid people like me in the forum anymore that ask for a challenge,

or if it fails you can simply say "here is the proof no one wants challenge, only rewards, fortuna difficult bountys have been only played by 7 people.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

Its basically the same as saying, just do endless runs...yes it is somehow possible to get to a point of challenge, you can play for hours to get to a point where its challenging

51 minutes ago, Birkenhoff said:

Sme people out there want to be challenged by a game. Downgrading yourself is unsatisfying since you want to beat the game without rising the dificulty artificially.

Subjective definition of challange aside, compared to all other Corpus enemies in the game, Fortuna variants were and still are more dangerous. Those Corpus have more health, hit harder, have more special abilities and come in bigger variance. This alone is enough to create a new experience.
Yes, those new Corpus units were nerfed, however there is a simple reason behind it. Those are lvl 40 enemies, their overall performance should be somehow copareable to all the other enemies in the game in the same lvl range.

The real reason so many people are unsatisfied is, that we power creeped the presented challange long time ago and the game has to play catch up. Those Corpus on steroids showed a glimpse of what the game could be with proper executed scaling. However, while fully geared player might experience joy, the actual target audience would be overwhelmed by Fortuna (I am not talking about new players, just like PoE, Fortuna is not for new players; I am talking about players, who played a decent ammount of time, completed the Star Chart and feel confident to fight lvl 40 enemies). If the overall scaling would define lvl 40-50 as dangerous territory for seasoned players, I would stay mute. This is not the case.

Also, gimping yourself to create an illusion of difficulty would compromise good game design, however, Warframe has no difficulty satting and caters to a broad spectrum of players, thus it is arguable to say - your loadout is your difficulty setting (until DE works on a reasonable scaling, I would welcome such changes).

[zetheros1]

Hey Digital Extremes, I understand the nerf for Fortuna since you want lower level players to get in, but this shouldn't be a across-the-level nerf. Fortuna was the first content where I had to stop and think for awhile, instead of nuking everything in a 100m radius.

Actually, I STILL nuke everything across a 100m radius. There's a lot of cool new enemies, but it doesn't matter when they've all disintegrated before I even see their pupils.

Edited November 14, 2018 by zetheros1

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 10 heures, (PS4)kfrancis902 a dit :

Well thats an unbiased assessment of RIo lol

It's true tho. Minf the guy is fun occasionally but he is a drama queen and likes clickbait way too much tbh. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

Subjective definition of challange aside, compared to all other Corpus enemies in the game, Fortuna variants were and still are more dangerous. Those Corpus have more health, hit harder, have more special abilities and come in bigger variance.

You are probably right, and combine that with the high dmgpotential they had, thats what was fun for us.

I understand everything else you say.

You know, i can even understand that DE wants low lvl players to be able to play everything in this OpenWorld, its their "selling point" since a long time.

People will join the game just for this probably, and DE wants them to stay.

I understand all this and its ok for me.

 

Thats why i made my recent suggestion which doesnt work against this at all:

Zitat

I would be happy if they let me chose before starting bountys that i want the "completly overpowered Corpus that shred each Frame to pieces in a heartbeat"  that we had before the hotfix. Then i get matched with only people that have chosen the same option. Everyone who doesnt like it can chose the new enemies that we have now post-hotfix. No bonus rewards, just a choice for players to what enemies they want to fight.

 

The new players can enjoy it, the people that like the prepatch gameplay can also enjoy it.

Nobody loses, everybody can play what he likes to play the most.

Of all the people arguing against higher difficulty in this topic, nobody has an answer to why this should be implemented.

It would be worth a try. Would it be a disaster if people actually would be playing it?

Spoiler

Why no just try it? i am 100% sure that there are lots of people that would do that, and DE can just gather all the data to see how much people are playing it.

If it is only 1 person (me) i will find that out pretty fast because i have to solo all the time, and DE will see that aswell and boom, there is the proof that we are all just entitled brats that want to feel better then other players, have exclusive things that only they can have and what else all guys presume about us.

 

And also, that isnt even much work to include, thats maybe like what, 1 hour of work for 1 person to add another bounty where absolutly everything is the same and the devs only have to raise the enemy lvl by a certain number.

 

If it gets played, everybody can be happy, if not you have the absolute proof for your theory.

Look at the bright side: if that gets implemented, its the ultimate killer for this annoying discussion.

You dont have to deal with stupid people like me in the forum anymore that ask for a challenge,

or if it fails you can simply say "here is the proof no one wants challenge, only rewards, fortuna difficult bountys have been only played by 7 people.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by DreisterDino

[O2D3nTe]

Can we stop with the whole "Veteran are egocentric A****** who want to inflate their epen", and "rEmoVe aLLs z m0ds on y fR4m l0l" things ?

No, people asking for some form of higher difficulty aren't elitist A******. They simply progressed further in the game than others and simply ask for a bit of content. No one wants to remove the low level Fortuna or PoE bounties or change all planets to be level 50 minimum. People simply want either higher level bounties available or a system to reach high level enemies without sitting in a mission for 1 hour before it gets fun. Fortuna doesn't have to be either a newbie haven or a hardcore place for people with 6 forma weapons. It can be both and offer a bit of everything to everyone. That's why bounties have levels in the first place, it's simply lacking in the higher difficulty tier.

And no, removing mods from you frame or weapon are not a realistic option. That goes against everything you do in the game. We're literally farming better mods, forma, etc and optimizing builds is fun for many of us. The whole point is to make better frames and weapons and test those against more difficult challenge. That's what games have been doing for decades. Or are you saying we should dissolve all our primed and corrupted mods, and only stick to rare unleveled mods to play the game ? If the game is meant to be played that way then remove all mods/levels/forma from the game and simply let people pick from the different frame and weapon without any modification. We're talking about an entire different game then.

It's not a veteran vs the rest of the player base. We're all playing the same game, we're all at a different step in our progress, but we're all bound to become veterans at some point. The game should offer content for everyone, from the guy who installed the game yesterday to the ones who've been playing since beta.

People like Littleman88 are living on another planet. I don't know where your hatred for "veterans" is coming from, but chill dude, no one is taking away the low level bounties and planet in the game.

[zetheros1]

I don't think this is a "lifeofrio drama" thing in any case; people have complained about how easy the game is for a long time now. A youtuber making a post about it is just necro'ing an old issue, not causing drama.

[Falconer777]

The problem with the orientation of the gameplay exclusively on beginners is that beginners very quickly become veterans. For some reason this moment is often overlooked in discussions on the forum. People discuss novices and veterans as if they were static groups. But they are dynamic. And this dynamic in Warframe is very fast. And today's newcomer, will very soon become deadly bored to kill the entire map with one glance.
 

[Sziklamester]

The Kingpin system could be the solution for the content hardiness for those players whom wish to fight against harder enemies and not wait until they reach those levels. That feature is still in progress hopefully but actually they shelved for Fortuna. The Kingpin system let the players most specially the clan lords to determine what levels and missions with what enemies your clan wish to fight. It is purely a sandbox addition but you can get rewarded and test your gear in real situations not test like simularcon. 

I am that person whom plays the game for fun and not for hurry. I like the decent skill needs and the godlike approach too.

[DerGreif2]

All I want is a nice experience. Not to hard but also not so weak that it dosent matter if I get hit by 4 opticore shots and still be almost at 100%.

[Apacks_Ghosts]

3 hours ago, Littleman88 said:

And while Vallis damage was nerfed, the enemy CC is still very much there.  Adjusting One's own health/damage around the enemy is the most direct form of difficulty control we have.  Use it.

No I shouldn't be forced to weaken my self we want something challenging to use our mind to fight with our high level gear not nerf ourselves this point of that we should have to nerf ourselves is so stupid 

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, O2D3nTe said:

Can we stop with the whole "Veteran are egocentric A****** who want to inflate their epen", and "rEmoVe aLLs z m0ds on y fR4m l0l" things ?

I'm sure that will happen as long as the counter argument isn't just a standard substandard "Everyone else just needs to git gud" 

There are a lot of decent Veteran players who are legitimately decent people but you're never going to see people stop with the whole elitist egotistical angle as long as the vocal vets keep demanding harder content. Which in itself isn't a problem, the problem comes from the fact that those vocal vets are totally willing to throw everyone else in the game under the bus as long as they get what they want. And what they want is super hardcore enemies and more importantly to them (if you've read any of the generic Warframe needs challenge threads) the super hardcore rewards to go along with them.

There are only two rewards that they actually want

1. More power creep, which is ironic because that negates the challenge they claim to want.
2. Exclusive cosmetics, the only point of which is to rub in everyone's face how awesome they are.

And hate to break it to everyone but Warframe is a game where we as players have direct control of the difficulty/challenge. There is functionally no mechanical difference between DE cranking up the enemy numbers and us as players cranking down our damage output. The only argument that keeps coming up vs that is "I don't wanna" and "I shouldn't haveta".  

Soooooooo...... yeah, until any of that changes you're going to keep getting those arguments cause they're relevant. 

 

[zetheros1]

Removing mods from my weapons and frames is so fundamentally stupid, it's like walking up to a Grineer and saying, "hey, wanna roleplay tenno vs grineer? I'll go easy on you."

[zetheros1]

9 minutes ago, Oreades said:

And hate to break it to everyone but Warframe is a game where we as players have direct control of the difficulty/challenge. There is functionally no mechanical difference between DE cranking up the enemy numbers and us as players cranking down our damage output. The only argument that keeps coming up vs that is "I don't wanna" and "I shouldn't haveta".  

Soooooooo...... yeah, until any of that changes you're going to keep getting those arguments cause they're relevant. 

 

I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. Farming, building, modding Warframes and weapons - then using them to their maximum potential is what gives a sense of pride and satisfaction.

This is a fundamental part of many games. Basically every game. Diablo, WoW, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Mass Effect. You kill things, you get stronger to kill stronger things.

If you want to go play some stupid battle royale or COD with no character progression, go right ahead.

[Nitro747]

2 hours ago, O2D3nTe said:

Can we stop with the whole "Veteran are egocentric A****** who want to inflate their epen", and "rEmoVe aLLs z m0ds on y fR4m l0l" things ?

No, people asking for some form of higher difficulty aren't elitist A******. They simply progressed further in the game than others and simply ask for a bit of content. No one wants to remove the low level Fortuna or PoE bounties or change all planets to be level 50 minimum. People simply want either higher level bounties available or a system to reach high level enemies without sitting in a mission for 1 hour before it gets fun. Fortuna doesn't have to be either a newbie haven or a hardcore place for people with 6 forma weapons. It can be both and offer a bit of everything to everyone. That's why bounties have levels in the first place, it's simply lacking in the higher difficulty tier.

And no, removing mods from you frame or weapon are not a realistic option. That goes against everything you do in the game. We're literally farming better mods, forma, etc and optimizing builds is fun for many of us. The whole point is to make better frames and weapons and test those against more difficult challenge. That's what games have been doing for decades. Or are you saying we should dissolve all our primed and corrupted mods, and only stick to rare unleveled mods to play the game ? If the game is meant to be played that way then remove all mods/levels/forma from the game and simply let people pick from the different frame and weapon without any modification. We're talking about an entire different game then.

It's not a veteran vs the rest of the player base. We're all playing the same game, we're all at a different step in our progress, but we're all bound to become veterans at some point. The game should offer content for everyone, from the guy who installed the game yesterday to the ones who've been playing since beta.

People like Littleman88 are living on another planet. I don't know where your hatred for "veterans" is coming from, but chill dude, no one is taking away the low level bounties and planet in the game.

It's the sort of people who think DE are gods among men and that no one should criticize any decision they take; who say that EVERY decision they took was good and had a good intention behind it.

And when veterans ask for challenge they just go and say "hur, saw off your arm and play the game using your left foot and right arm". They completely ignore when people complain about core aspects of the game being criticized.

Its like that gang who would always drop dozens of comments in posts asking for vacuum for pets saying "bu-but I use only an unmodded helminth charger and I'm fine" and they keep going on and on about how fine they themselves are without univac.

[Nitro747]

33 minutes ago, Oreades said:

And hate to break it to everyone but Warframe is a game where we as players have direct control of the difficulty/challenge. There is functionally no mechanical difference between DE cranking up the enemy numbers and us as players cranking down our damage output. The only argument that keeps coming up vs that is "I don't wanna" and "I shouldn't haveta".  

Soooooooo...... yeah, until any of that changes you're going to keep getting those arguments cause they're relevant. 

 

Its hard to describe in words how idiotic this "you can crank up the challenge by using unmodde weapons" sort of argument is. It simply goes against any logic within videogames. There is a whole world of difference between DE making enemies harder and players having to nerf themselves to have a "challenge". It's like asking a professional UFC fighter to go fight the kindergarten, having him complaining "but those are just kids" and your brilliant idea to ballance things out is telling him "oh, you can just saw off your arms and legs, I'm sure you'll have a nice challenge".

[SirDoor]

I say buff the enemies again, there's no reason for them to be debuffed.

[zetheros1]

I think the best solution is to have the introductory Fortuna quests scale to the player's mastery rank. That removes the 'shock' factor of lower level players getting gibbed on exiting the gate, and once the player is able to queue for bounties, they can choose what level of difficulty the they feel most comfortable in.

Edited November 14, 2018 by zetheros1

[O2D3nTe]

7 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I'm sure that will happen as long as the counter argument isn't just a standard substandard "Everyone else just needs to git gud" 

There are a lot of decent Veteran players who are legitimately decent people but you're never going to see people stop with the whole elitist egotistical angle as long as the vocal vets keep demanding harder content. Which in itself isn't a problem, the problem comes from the fact that those vocal vets are totally willing to throw everyone else in the game under the bus as long as they get what they want. And what they want is super hardcore enemies and more importantly to them (if you've read any of the generic Warframe needs challenge threads) the super hardcore rewards to go along with them. 

There are only two rewards that they actually want

1. More power creep, which is ironic because that negates the challenge they claim to want. 
2. Exclusive cosmetics, the only point of which is to rub in everyone's face how awesome they are.

And hate to break it to everyone but Warframe is a game where we as players have direct control of the difficulty/challenge. There is functionally no mechanical difference between DE cranking up the enemy numbers and us as players cranking down our damage output. The only argument that keeps coming up vs that is "I don't wanna" and "I shouldn't haveta".   

Soooooooo...... yeah, until any of that changes you're going to keep getting those arguments cause they're relevant. 

 

Asking for higher level content does not mean getting rid of anything that currently exist. So who is thrown in front of the bus if a new game mode shows up with high levels enemies ? The game currently have a lot of casual content, and no really challenging end game content. Obviously it leads to a situation where people are asking for the latter, since we already have an abundance of the former.

I'm also not sure who is supposed to be a veteran. I have logged around 160 days if I remember correctly, 450h according to in game stats. Only a handful of frames/weapons are completely forma'ed with primed mods. I haven't been playing Warframe that long compared to others, but I still reached the point where I can cheese the entire content with a few frames. If veteran refers to people who get at least a few fully modded frames and weapons and can cheese the entire game, then there is a whole lot of us veterans, and more people will join with time. The end game question doesn't only concern MR26 founders, it's an important question for all of us. For example, the frame you like the most is most likely the one you're going to invest the most. Once you fully mod that frame, you're exactly in that end game situation, your frame will be too strong for anything the game throw at you. Do you stop playing it ? that's your favorite frame after all.

Regarding rewards, I'm not saying DE should oblige and provide what some people are asking for, but people are asking those things for a reason:

- More power creep: That's the whole progression of the game, it's only logical for people to comes up with that. It's also how the majority of games are working.

- Exclusive cosmetics: That's a seriously messed up way of looking at it. Again, the majority of games offer exclusive cosmetics, there's no evil master plan, it's not about rubbing anything in anyone's face. It's a reward that feel worth working toward while avoiding the entire power creep situation. And honestly can you tell ? When I see other people's frame I can't tell what they're wearing, and even if I do, then what ? I've never seen an Excalibur prime, but if I do, I'll just be "ho nice", I won't go bat S#&$ crazy "this #*!%er is trying to show off and think he's better than us".

Could DE comes up with better rewards ? Maybe. Should we listen to players when it comes to rewards ? Most likely not, we all like shinny new toys. But at the end of the day, those requests are not coming from evil veterans who want to show those noobs than they're better than them, it's only players who could not come up with better ideas, and are using what all other games out there are doing as a reference.

And once again, the whole "downgrade your own loadout" thing is not a solution. Collecting mods, ranking them up, forma'ing frame and weapon, applying catalysts/reactors are all important aspect of the game and a huge part of the progression. It's counter-intuitive to ask people to not do it (aka not play some part of the game) because it's too strong.

 

Honestly I haven't seen that many of those bat S#&$ crazy veteran you're referring to, but I've seen a handful of people with your mindset. Hating on those veterans, or most likely your own made up image of them. To me your attitude is hurting the game more than theirs. DE already proved countless times that the game will never become a hardcore game catering to people with thousands of hours put into the game. It's accessible, most of the content is and will forever be. It would still benefit from a bit of higher level stuff for those who are into those things.

[Althaline]

People are still missing the point here. The enemies in Orb Vallis already were and remain far more difficult than equivalent level enemies elsewhere. That is the reason for the nerf, and the reason it will not be reverted. 'Challenge' has nothing to do with it. It's about general game consistency. The base stats were changed for the purpose of bringing these enemies into line with the entire rest of the game.

[(PSN)ArsArcanumPS]

14 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Their damage did not match other enemies of similar level. It's still the second planet. They could independently boost the final bounties enemy level but Rio likes drama for clicks.

I heavily disagree. The plains of Eidelon are on earth, and you dont see new players going there often, yeah? PoE is friendly to the people that consider themselves "pretty good" but not "great". Fortuna is the next big open-world area for warframe, not just another node or activity on the starchart. Also, it isn't supposed to scale with Venus level Enemies. I think that if someone doesn't like the difficulty of a game, they should either "git gud", or go back to easier content. Fortuna should be for the players that consider themselves very good at the game, and are capable of handling difficult enemies. Also, Rio does SOMETIMES make decent S#&$, like builds. occasionally >_>

Edited November 14, 2018 by (PS4)ArsArcanumPS

[(PSN)Zero_029]

14 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Their damage did not match other enemies of similar level. It's still the second planet. They could independently boost the final bounties enemy level but Rio likes drama for clicks.

This.

Rio is a piece of filth who jumps on every little change to stir up (censored) then tries to claim it's for the good of the game.

Just to point it out...

Rio doesn't even play Fortuna. He boycotts the open world gameplay areas & has blatantly said thathe dislikes DE developing it. He believes all Endgame should be similar to 2-6hr survival missions that fits his playstyle.

Yet...he's stirring the pot over Fortuna. Which I doubt he even bothered to step foot in.

But hey..."positive vibes" people. That's makes his drama acceptable.

Just remember to be happy.

*facepalms* Rio & AGGP grind my gears with the toxicity & two faced behavior*

I will say/ask this...though...

In PoE the further from town the harder the enemies (basic MMORPG 101).

Did Fortuna not follow this formula?

I know from what I watched on Mogamu that the enemies were using weapons that new players could never deal with.

Edited November 14, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[Nitro747]

14 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Their damage did not match other enemies of similar level. It's still the second planet. They could independently boost the final bounties enemy level but Rio likes drama for clicks.

And Rhino is still on the second planet. One of the tankiest frames. Your point is...?

[O2D3nTe]

2 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

People are still missing the point here. The enemies in Orb Vallis already were and remain far more difficult than equivalent level enemies elsewhere. That is the reason for the nerf, and the reason it will not be reverted. 'Challenge' has nothing to do with it. It's about general game consistency. The base stats were changed for the purpose of bringing these enemies into line with the entire rest of the game. 

Yes but it had the nice side effect of providing decent challenges in high level bounties after a while.

Now it created two groups: The first are those who liked it, and want to get that challenge back. In a context where people have been asking for challenging content for years, it feels like a big #*!% you from DE that gave us a toy and took it back immediately. The second are those who scream "evil veterans are hating on newbies" and think this whole thing is about screwing over newer player in some act of petty-ness.

There is a solution for everyone though. The current fixes were most likely necessary for lower level players, but it proved that some more challenging content was possible. They should add some elite bounties, or offer a working mechanism to let us rank up the difficulty to levels we saw pre-nerf. No one is losing anything.

[Spectre-8]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

This.

Rio is a piece of filth who jumps on every little change to stir up (censored) then tries to claim it's for the good of the game.

Just to point it out...

Rio doesn't even play Fortuna. He boycotts the open world gameplay areas & has blatantly said thathe dislikes DE developing it. He believes all Endgame should be similar to 2-6hr survival missions that fits his playstyle.

Yet...he's stirring the pot over Fortuna. Which I doubt he even bothered to step foot in.

But hey..."positive vibes" people. That's makes his drama acceptable.

Just remember to be happy.

*facepalms* Rio & AGGP grind my gears with the toxicity & two faced behavior*

Only their followers care anyways 🤣