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Can We Stop Catering to New Players?


Boondokz
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Don't get me wrong I understand that DE wants new players to be able to experience everything and not get discouraged, but will it ever stop coming at the expense of the fun for veterans? With the release of Fortuna I thought I had finally found my new love in the form of base raiding. Enemies hit luck trucks and ramped up to high levels extremely fast. It became intense and therefor fun. How many toroids could you farm up before your team became overwhelmed and then have to sprint to the exit, mount up, and dash away. This was an amazing prospect. Instead DE nerfs the damage that the enemies do, lower the ramp speed (may be observer bias there), and decrease spawn rates. No longer is it an intense battle where you have to play smart if you want your rewards. Instead it has become yet another boring farm session. If you want the intense gameplay you have to wait an extremely long time.

 

So some might argue that Arbitration already fills this roll. To that I would have to disagree. It is the same old experience we have always had except slower as rewards take twice as long. Bring the same old set up you always would and then just wait 40 wave, 40 minutes, ext. and you will get a slight boost in challenge. It may be because the new enemies added out on Orb Vallis just havent been 100% figured out yet that supplied some of the uniqueness, but nerfing them so they are simple as any old enemy seems like veterans are being neglected. I was so happy that there was some "end game content" now it is a walk in the park, where the only reason to leave is something glitches and you are afraid of the WF Crash.

 

I hope when the spider tanks are released the challenge is restored to some extent, and it IS NOT just another operator gimmick. I still love Warframe, only I wish that everything wasn't tuned to be super casual. I expect to get some hate for this post in all honesty, but understand this is partially a knee jerk response to how much I loved base raiding compared to now.

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I agree. The challenge ,  the damage , it's ramp up speed was something that offered me great fun after a LONG LONG TIME in warframe. And it feels like they've already nerfed all of it. I'm no longer dying or getting downed. It's literally starting to feel more and more of a POE reskin due to this. The same feeling of slogging through the bounties has step in ever since the challenge left the scene. I don't feel like even going to fortuna anymore... The arbitrations are good for endo but fun ? hell no. They're the same maps we have jumped around hundreds of hours in. Fortuna bounties were such a welcome delight after that. Yet DE has been nerfing them to cater to the new players. We get it DE. New players have increased due to the update but that shouldn't mean you should only completely cater to them when the daily players are the ones who are looking forward to this update the most. These changes only bring challenge to the new players and take it away from everyone else.

 

Edited by Arc2199
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The mrs and I went into a tier 5 bounty pre-nerf for a look at how they were.. she, a barely modded mag, me, a general build loki.. you know, casual stroll. We got smashed, over and over. It was great. We hated it, but it was fresh and unexpected. Cut 2 days later after nerf, we're yawning. lol

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Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Plus if you compare the same level enemy on Plains to a same level enemy on Vallis.....the corpus guys are hitting much harder and have much more skills. So in that point....a nerf was totally justified.

If you want more challenge, take the highest bounty....don't even have to finish it....do what you want, the enemies will scale all over Vallis to that bounty. And start raiding bases.....after a high enough alert level, good luck.

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On 2018-11-14 at 10:08 AM, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Plus if you compare the same level enemy on Plains to a same level enemy on Vallis.....the corpus guys are hitting much harder and have much more skills. So in that point....a nerf was totally justified.

If you want more challenge, take the highest bounty....don't even have to finish it....do what you want, the enemies will scale all over Vallis to that bounty. And start raiding bases.....after a high enough alert level, good luck. 

This difficulty even on the highest bounty is pathetic now and I dont want to end up ONLY playing the highest hier bounty just to get a bit of challenge. The "But but 2nd planet" excuse is cheap. Aren't POE bounties at a way higher level than the starting earth missions anyway?  Fortuna is the latest mainline content drop for ALL the players. Not MR1s and MR2s who don't even know how to mod. Why should it be focused on them? for them and them only?

The ramp up time is also slow now. Fortuna has become a yawn.

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28 minutes ago, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Plus if you compare the same level enemy on Plains to a same level enemy on Vallis.....the corpus guys are hitting much harder and have much more skills. So in that point....a nerf was totally justified.

If you want more challenge, take the highest bounty....don't even have to finish it....do what you want, the enemies will scale all over Vallis to that bounty. And start raiding bases.....after a high enough alert level, good luck.

Even doing as you say is pointless. They cut the enemies damage in half. So it is pointlessly easy now. The fact that it is on Venus shouldnt matter, in fact new players shouldnt be there to begin with. What will they gain?

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Again......and even if FOR YOU it is a dumb exuse that it is a location on one of the BEGINNER planets, it still IS!

Nothing less, nothing more.

You want a challange? This game has soooo many game modes where you can have or create a challenge.

There is a saying in our country. Help yourself, and only than, god will help you out too. (I'm not religious but it's a good one)

I see from where you are coming from and you all mighty old veterans want to have some special snowflake care from DE, but as I said.....go and pick the highest difficulty, and make yourself some modifiers. Like not using specific mods or weapons or damage types. Ect. So easy man so easy.

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I don't completely disagree with the sentiment, but to all the people crying about no challenge in PvE..... I mean if you want challenge, what do you do anything to make it challenging? I imagine most of you got yourself a set of good weapons with best mods (some with rivens) with nuke frames and then proceed to cry about how easy it is.

Here are 3 easy options that will help you add some challenge Fortuna (without making this content inaccessible to people who just reach the planet):

  • Take a low armor frame, get 4 stars alert and go down into an enemy base (keep any weapons you like).
    Deal with quick CC chains, Nullifiers and impossible to avoid (at small closed spaces) accuracy.
  • Mod your main weapon up to 30 energy consumption (if your main mods are forma'ed, do it up to 20). It is close to impossible to kill some of the kill top tier bounty enemies (not even the toughest ones) with most weapons without a potato (in some cases forma) installed. They regenerated shields faster than weapons deal damage. 
  • Do not use AoE nukes (both weapons and abilities). Even if you kill enemies instantly, if you kill them 1 at a time, it gets hard (especially if you're trying to farm Toroids).

If you choose to play easiest builds, please don't cry about lack of challenge.

 

 

Edited by Jitsuryoku
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On 2018-11-14 at 10:08 AM, Nihil501 said:

Your point would make sense OP if Fortuna wouldn't be found literally on the 2nd starting planet in the game.

Plus if you compare the same level enemy on Plains to a same level enemy on Vallis.....the corpus guys are hitting much harder and have much more skills. So in that point....a nerf was totally justified.

If you want more challenge, take the highest bounty....don't even have to finish it....do what you want, the enemies will scale all over Vallis to that bounty. And start raiding bases.....after a high enough alert level, good luck.

2nd planet or not, the highest bounty shouldn't be a cakewalk nevertheless. I shouldn't have to stay in the mission for hours upon hours just for the enemies to start to become stronger and stronger.

It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? And I personally do believe that difficulty makes something more fun, one of the side effects to nerfing the enemies is that more people with bad loadouts can simply walk right through the mission with ease. No effort needed or anything.

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These changes weren't made JUST to cater to new players. To quote DE "especially noticed with lower level players." Part of the problem here is these "veterans" no longer have any idea what its like to be a lower level player. The reason I started posting about Terra enemies was because they were inconsistent with the rest of the game.

I'm not a low level player by any stretch, but I'm not a meta warrior either. I play most all of the frames. Making these Corpus proxies deal more damage is fine, and they still do more than their standard counterparts, but there were certain enemy types that were WAY overpowered. Notice how they didn't nerf all of the units. The difficult of the Vallis actually comes in the new mechanics and enemy types. They employ weapons that we've never had to contend with before. If you think these base damage nerfs ruined the game for you I don't think I can understand where you're coming from.

Orb Vallis Enemy Changes:
Orb Vallis mission and Vox Solaris quest data showed that certain Terra enemy types were not on par with other Corpus enemies, causing an unintentional difficulty spike, especially noticed with lower level players. The following Terra enemies have received damage reductions to improve the balance between Orb Vallis enemies:

  • Lowered Terra Plasmor Crewman base damage from 30 to 25.
  • Lowered Terra Raptor SX base damage from 30 to 25 and base area damage from 75 to 40.
  • Lowered Terra Embattor MOA bounce mine damage from 150 to 75.
  • Lowered Terra Sniper Crewman base damage from 60 to 45.
  • Lowered Terra Overtaker base damage from 120 to 60 and area damage from 50 to 25.
  • Lowered Terra Jailer area damage from 50 to 20.

I just blows my mind that someone can spend so much time playing the game in order to become powerful and once they have that power complain that everything is too easy while using new players as a scapegoat. Whatever the actually issue is for veterans I don't think they are doing a good job of explaining it. Either that or they just refuse to recognize the unavoidable level of cognitive dissonance they're experiencing and there actually isn't any real problem with the game.

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There should be content that requires some genuine effort and for you to come back when you're stronger if you can't do it now. Engage your brain and come up with better mod and loadout combinations. Then try again.

Nerfing the difficulty so that people can half ass their way through does not make good players. The player shouldn't need to intentionally limit themselves and hold back just to create a challenge. The opposite is far more rewarding and fun.

 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

There should be content that requires some genuine effort and for you to come back when you're stronger if you can't do it now. Engage your brain and come up with better mod and loadout combinations. Then try again.

Nerfing the difficulty so that people can half ass their way through does not make good players. The player shouldn't need to intentionally limit themselves and hold back just to create a challenge. The opposite is far more rewarding and fun.

 

See there's the thing though, new players are limited to their loadout and what mods they have, along with credits and endo. This nerf was to keep the enemies in line with their level and with the rest of the game, and, apparently, someone posted about being able to raise the enemies to level 125 in Fortuna (I don't know how, but someone did). And you're looking at an open world that is levels 10-30, by no means is it supposed to be difficult in any phrase of the word, but that's why DE also gave us the alert system so that you can get swarmed by enemies and it creates that challenge, even if you'll say it's just fake difficulty.

But having a difficulty that's too high for Venus is insane enough as it is, being that Venus is one of the starter planets (and I believe the easiest to get to in terms of junctions), it's a pinnacle for new players (along with Earth). Just take a look at where the two open world locations are, Earth and Venus, both low level areas. The reason DE caters to new players is because it brings in new people into the game, increasing their player count, but also it might bring in some people that would spend more money on the game than others.

You can't have a game that doesn't cater to new players in some shape or form because then if someone wants to start up and play for the first time, everyone's at end-game and the new players won't know what the heck to do and it becomes a very niche game among the hardcore players that started in the beginning. Imagine DE reshaped the game so that it catered to veterans? The sense of progression is almost non-existent because all of the levels scale well past level 80+, how are new players supposed to contend with that kind of content, having just started? There has to be some form of progression, and while I see what everyone is saying about the game not being difficult, and "Why should we cater to new players?!" it's because DE is thinking about the longevity of the game, and you guys just did get arbitrations not that long ago, even though apparently you're done with that already.

It's a balancing act for DE. They have to cater to new players or it becomes niche and the community will only really be the hardcore players.

Edited by TacitParasite11
Content with that kind of content....ooops
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16 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

There should be content that requires some genuine effort and for you to come back when you're stronger if you can't do it now. Engage your brain and come up with better mod and loadout combinations. Then try again.

Nerfing the difficulty so that people can half ass their way through does not make good players. The player shouldn't need to intentionally limit themselves and hold back just to create a challenge. The opposite is far more rewarding and fun.

 

Agreed. And if the concern is... "Well players won't be able to farm for the resource at this location because it's too difficult". I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to fix that. You could change the location of the drop or you could add another base in Orb Vallis that's meant specifically for this challenging experience. I'm sure something can be done. But it was definitely fun/exciting before the nerf.  

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22 minutes ago, TacitParasite11 said:

See there's the thing though, new players are limited to their loadout and what mods they have, along with credits and endo. This nerf was to keep the enemies in line with their level and with the rest of the game, and, apparently, someone posted about being able to raise the enemies to level 125 in Fortuna (I don't know how, but someone did). And you're looking at an open world that is levels 10-30, by no means is it supposed to be difficult in any phrase of the word, but that's why DE also gave us the alert system so that you can get swarmed by enemies and it creates that challenge, even if you'll say it's just fake difficulty.

But having a difficulty that's too high for Venus is insane enough as it is, being that Venus is one of the starter planets (and I believe the easiest to get to in terms of junctions), it's a pinnacle for new players (along with Earth). Just take a look at where the two open world locations are, Earth and Venus, both low level areas. The reason DE caters to new players is because it brings in new people into the game, increasing their player count, but also it might bring in some people that would spend more money on the game than others.

You can't have a game that doesn't cater to new players in some shape or form because then if someone wants to start up and play for the first time, everyone's at end-game and the new players won't know what the heck to do and it becomes a very niche game among the hardcore players that started in the beginning. Imagine DE reshaped the game so that it catered to veterans? The sense of progression is almost non-existent because all of the levels scale well past level 80+, how are new players supposed to contend with that kind of content, having just started? There has to be some form of progression, and while I see what everyone is saying about the game not being difficult, and "Why should we cater to new players?!" it's because DE is thinking about the longevity of the game, and you guys just did get arbitrations not that long ago, even though apparently you're done with that already.

It's a balancing act for DE. They have to cater to new players or it becomes niche and the community will only really be the hardcore players.

But in the same breathe, If we're being completely honest... Putting these new open-world areas in the beginning of the game is ONLY so newer players can experience it also, which is completely fair and understandable. Not saying they shouldn't be.

But at the same time, these new open-world areas were not made ONLY for new players, they came about because something needed to be done to shake up the game and make it different because obviously things were starting to getting very stale for existing players/long term players. So when DE makes new content this big and takes away parts that are actually fun for existing/long term players it's not a good thing. Are there plenty of other challenging things we can do in the game? Yes, of course. But this is the newest content for the game and we all want to enjoy it. 

To be honest though, i don't see it being too difficult for DE to make some sort of way to activate something in the world that makes the entire map or a certain area in Orb Vallis a bit harder for those who want a tougher challenge.. Sort of how Nukes work in Fallout 76 (Not sure if anyone knows what im talking about). But im personally not mad about the nerf, i completely understand it. I just hope they add something in Orb Vallis that creates that same challenge cause it was really fun. Besides the big boi spiders. 

Edited by MacAaroni
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23 minutes ago, MacAaroni said:

But in the same breathe, If we're being completely honest... Putting these new open-world areas in the beginning of the game is ONLY so newer players can experience it also, which is completely fair and understandable. Not saying they shouldn't be.

But at the same time, these new open-world areas were not made ONLY for new players, they came about because something needed to be done to shake up the game and make it different because obviously things were starting to getting very stale for existing players/long term players. So when DE makes new content this big and takes away parts that are actually fun for existing/long term players it's not a good thing. Are there plenty of other challenging things we can do in the game? Yes, of course. But this is the newest content for the game and we all want to enjoy it. 

To be honest though, i don't see it being too difficult for DE to make some sort of way to activate something in the world that makes the entire map or a certain area in Orb Vallis a bit harder for those who want a tougher challenge.. Sort of how Nukes work in Fallout 76 (Not sure if anyone knows what im talking about). But im personally not mad about the nerf, i completely understand it. I just hope they add something in Orb Vallis that creates that same challenge cause it was really fun. Besides the big boi spiders. 

Oh yeah, if they added something to make the content more difficult for veterans, that would be a good change (And I'm not really a veteran, nor a new player, kind of inbetween). I think it's just that having the open worlds on such a low level planet doesn't shy players away from it. And I was going to mention the Orb Mothers, but you did mention those. I think they're looking at a lot of the feedback tbh. I believe they said this is only a part of what they have planned for Fortuna.

I think it just comes down to that new players were struggling with the damage being almost double what they normally do (I know I did, but I tend to play squishy frames, like Banshee.) I just think this whole "Can we stop catering to new players" thread is kind of blown up and out of the water. There's reasons they have to cater to new players (like keeping them engaged and having fun, giving them a challenge without pushing them too far, etc.), but that doesn't mean they aren't thinking of long term players either. I mean, Eidolons were end-game, but once everyone found out how to combat those, it became a cakewalk for a lot of those players, so it's more about having interesting and difficult mechanics over just making a bullet sponge, so if DE makes the orb mothers have weird and difficult mechanics that could take a while to figure out, that would be interesting. (I mean more than just using the operator to blow up the shields and shooting sections of the body).

It's only been out for less than a week now, so who knows what DE has planned for the rest of the content being added. I think the biggest issue imo is the standing limit, but I would assume everyone that didn't want to farm Garuda for 2 weeks probably just bought the pack, but that's a whole other issue that's already got a thread. And the bases are almost unused in terms of content (outside of the caches, at least from what I've seen), so they might have something interesting planned for those. I think if they added a few numbers to the damage values of the enemies, it would be a nice inbetween, but nothing more than what a new player can handle.

Edited by TacitParasite11
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I barely see the difference before and after the nerf, didn't even know there was one until I read this thread. Whatever challenge you were looking for, it wasn't there.

Whatever their reason for "nerfing" this, it wasn't to make it easier per say, but to make it more accessible and streamline public bounties, you don't want to alienate playerbases and have half of them going solo to avoid public and the other getting a bad experience, especially for something as basic as bounties.

As for arbitration, what I read online and see in game is 180, besides interception, 2/4 always die after the 10 min mark, and don't get me started on defection and infested salvage, 3/4 quit before the first rotation ends, despite this yes its still simple and players still fail at that, which I don't mind, but makes anyone who wants to make sure to get to rotation C and beyond strictly solo or premade group just so they don't force quit the team, and despite that I still join public games because I don't want to treat warframe as a glorified single player. ( OTOH I would be "forced" to play more solo if the experience in public ever gets too bad, which I would hate, and which DE hopefully tries to avoid, see what I'm getting at? )

And again, talk of challenging content and no one mentions the void, where I constantly see the most deaths from start to finish ( however long that lasts ), but there's not much to do there so I can't blame people.

There's still plenty of ways to add challenges to the new area, like having "elite raids" into specific corpus bases, where you need to sabotage/spy/assault.. the bases are already built around that so we could see them in the future.

Edited by Licandrien
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Oh did they just nerfed the damage from those corpus in fortuna? I did not even realize it bcs even at the very beginning of the fortuna release their damage was not that impressive comparing to other endgame modes. Yeah DE should not nerf enemies and make this game even easier anymore, please.

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10 minutes ago, 1thurts said:

Oh did they just nerfed the damage from those corpus in fortuna? I did not even realize it bcs even at the very beginning of the fortuna release their damage was not that impressive comparing to other endgame modes. Yeah DE should not nerf enemies and make this game even easier anymore, please.

It was for good reason, lower level players were having some trouble. But at the same time they should definitely look into making a way for players to scale the difficulty even further than now for Orb Valiis or at least certain areas of it. 

Edited by MacAaroni
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28 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Why are people complaining about base levels and stats? Don't turn this isn't a casuals vs vets thing, turn it into a "Let's make everyone happy" situation. Leave everything how it is now at base, and make the alert levels more challenging for vets.

This isn't even a vets thing anymore.The enemies in fortuna have just become too easy. Too easier for anyone and everywhere who isn't a new player. And fortuna should be fun and challenging for everyone. Not just the new players.

Edited by Arc2199
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