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Boondokz

Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

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1 minute ago, Arc2199 said:

This isn't even a vets thing anymore.The enemies in fortuna have just become too easy. Too easier for anyone and everywhere who isn't a new player.

I'm relatively casual and got stomped by level 40 enemies in the first base outside of Fortuna with all four alert levels. MR13, was using Garuda because I'm loving her right now. Certainly not new and certainly not a vet. I'll have to experiment more, but I'm sure it's at a place where I can find challenge relatively easily.

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3 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

I'm relatively casual and got stomped by level 40 enemies in the first base outside of Fortuna with all four alert levels. MR13, was using Garuda because I'm loving her right now. Certainly not new and certainly not a vet. I'll have to experiment more, but I'm sure it's at a place where I can find challenge relatively easily. 

I'm in the same place as you , definitely not a vet nor a newcomer but the I don't like the change one bit. I loved having to try my best to avoid letting the alert level get too high. Even my fully developed and modded frames struggled at high alert. Now... not so much. Things going max alert doesn't feel as tense anymore.

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just because you have a good riven doesn't mean enemies are easy garbage, i am mastery 23, don't have any rivens and don't really want to, and alert 4 enemies with their level 100 giving me a cc fest with complete spell immunity.

they are not challenging, they are annoying

please don't try to balance the game around completely random garbage mechanic which are rivens

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    And I still see people saying that we have to wait for other planets to get open world or just stay in these for hours to have some short of challenge...


    Why would we have to wait for difficulty when Orb Vallis could just bring it as we enter? We just need the higher bounties to be hard. If you don't feel like playing them, it's alright. Just choose the easy ones.


    There're 5 bounties already, and all those 5 have the same dificulty for mid-end players. All are the same grinding missions. Why not making bounties for every kind of player instead of spoiling the fun for a part of the comunuty just because the other won't play it?
It would be way better for DE and the comunity of Warframe if we just fought to get what we want, instead of getting rid of what other players do.

 

 

    PD: We also need real drops, and actual and diverse events. Eidolon 2.0 Orb Vallis has nothing that would make most people play for more than a few weeks. People will just go for their Moas, Pistols and Krydrive, then they will leave (as has happened, and is happening, to Cetus).

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I took a look at your profile ingame OP. I'm sorry, you can't say Orb Vallis is a damn snorefest when several of your more used frames, including Ember, Saryn, and Mesa, have an absurd amount more kills than any of your other owned and played frames. Your most used melee weapon is also the Atterax! The game isn't supposed to be designed around press-4-to-win noobery, so of course you're going to think Orb Vallis isn't catering to you, when you can nuke everything miles away by mindlessly pressing one button, while everyone gets to sit around and let the game play itself.

Don't think I didn't check your profile either @Arc2199, you're currently using Mesa (as of writing this), and Saryn has a huge deal more kills than anything else that you own. Orb Vallis wasn't, and shouldn't be, made for people like you.

You two are your own worst enemies.

Have you considered trying other frames in Orb Vallis before making this complaint? I took Nekros Prime there earlier to try and grind hard for those toroids, and I can say that if you don't stay on top of summoning and maintaining shadows (assuming you're using Shield of Shadows), enemies are going to deny you any kind of foothold without you having to die first.

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The Temple of profit and high bounty's was super good before the nerf, I was having so much fun that I doesn't even botter by the grind. I died a few time but it was fun and challenging. But now I stated to hate Fortuna. If they only just nerf the enemy on the quest, this would be ok, but no. It's seem like DE is trying to get away people that's been playing the game for a while and who want a little difficulty. 

I was so happy, that I even buy a prime access, but now I regret it.

 

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I think the only significant change was so Overtakers only do 2x of everything else's damage instead of like 4x?  The numbers weren't really changed much if the patch notes weren't concealing anything.

And with that 'everything else' still doing many times the DPS of the equivalent starmap version, at least in Simulacrum testing.

I feel like its bad design to begin with if one mob type is so strong that nerfing that mob by 50% nerfs the total incoming damage by 50%.  Which seems to be what happened with all the people complaining about them being too weak now.

Though, I admit I have no way of telling if there are secret stealth nerfs.  I couldn't practically tell the difference between a level 10 and a level 100 before the nerf without specifically testing it in the simulacrum already so I wouldn't notice if something unlisted got weaker.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

Nerfing the difficulty so that people can half ass their way through does not make good players. The player shouldn't need to intentionally limit themselves and hold back just to create a challenge. The opposite is far more rewarding and fun.

A) The game's goal is not to 'make good players'. We're not in it to min-max and super-strategise immaculate builds to cheese our ways through high level content. 

B) Why are veterans exempt from putting in the effort to make the game enjoyable, but casual players -have to- engage in maximising in order to fully enjoy the game?

C) Challenge =/= fun. It is subjective. YOU might find challenge fun, but others may not. I absolutely abhor challenge-oriented game design, particularly in flavourful RPG-esque gameplay, because challenge and creativity are direct opposites of one another. As challenge goes up, playstyle diversity goes down, and I've seen games die due to devs misunderstanding of this fact.

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31 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

A) The game's goal is not to 'make good players'. We're not in it to min-max and super-strategise immaculate builds to cheese our ways through high level content. 

B) Why are veterans exempt from putting in the effort to make the game enjoyable, but casual players -have to- engage in maximising in order to fully enjoy the game?

C) Challenge =/= fun. It is subjective. YOU might find challenge fun, but others may not. I absolutely abhor challenge-oriented game design, particularly in flavourful RPG-esque gameplay, because challenge and creativity are direct opposites of one another. As challenge goes up, playstyle diversity goes down, and I've seen games die due to devs misunderstanding of this fact.

A) You don't need to min-max. Bringing the right setup for the job is not min-maxing, it's just being smart. Example: You're facing an enemy with a massive shield, you can try to take it down directly with Magnetic/Impact or bypass it with Gas/Slash or whatever else works. If you're trying to take it down with puncture (bad against shields) just because you want to you can't then complain that it's too hard because you chose to make it hard.

B) Veterans want to put in effort and are happy when the content allows them to (see pre-patch enemies). Nerfing content takes away the requirement for effort. Based on the various complaint threads, the people who keep getting "insta-killed" keep saying that their tank frame dies in seconds. Yet in those very same threads the people who don't have a problem keep saying that all you have to do is move around. In other words everything has been so easy that many players have gotten used to being sedentary tanks and forgotten what it means to be a space ninja.

C) Fair enough, I agree except for that last sentence. Games also die when they've been casualized to the point of boring monotony.

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DE will stop catering to new players when the other players don't bite off their head for doing something that doesn't challenge the top 10% of players.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

A) You don't need to min-max. Bringing the right setup for the job is not min-maxing, it's just being smart. Example: You're facing an enemy with a massive shield, you can try to take it down directly with Magnetic/Impact or bypass it with Gas/Slash or whatever else works. If you're trying to take it down with puncture (bad against shields) just because you want to you can't then complain that it's too hard because you chose to make it hard.

B) Veterans want to put in effort and are happy when the content allows them to (see pre-patch enemies). Nerfing content takes away the requirement for effort. Based on the various complaint threads, the people who keep getting "insta-killed" keep saying that their tank frame dies in seconds. Yet in those very same threads the people who don't have a problem keep saying that all you have to do is move around. In other words everything has been so easy that many players have gotten used to being sedentary tanks and forgotten what it means to be a space ninja.

C) Fair enough, I agree except for that last sentence. Games also die when they've been casualized to the point of boring monotony.

A) Maintaining three different builds because every faction requires a different elemental pack is pretty min-maxy. Especially since elemental builds also have status effects with different gameplay, which could end up getting sacrificed in exchange for viability. 

B) You're immediately leaping to the conclusion that the people who were complaining about getting insta-killed were standing still, and putting no effort in their survival. Not everyone is experiencing the game the same way. Variations in builds can make for a huge difference in gameplay difficulty. As said before, veterans are able to put in sub-optimal builds and build the challenge for themselves. Try doing Orb Vallis with only bows and see how you fare once the nullifier bubbles start popping up everywhere. 

There has been no argument as to why it should be the casual players who need to change -their- playstyle to suit the 'veterans' needs, and not the other way around.

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Enemy damage is really a small part of what's needed to present challenge to Veteran players.

The argument is similar to lvl 400 MoT Vs lvl 400 Tycho. The only difference is enemies have a x4 damage multiplier. This doesn't make the enemies more difficult, it simply removes play options. This is why we needed Damage 3.0 so badly. We need a proper foundation to build content on top. As an example my 60k eHP Nekros doesn't care either way with that nerf while my 8k eHP Nyx might if I screw up. Lets throw a Healer Specter in the mix and Trinity, now we're over 1 million eHP.

The eHP gap alone is so massive at this point enemy damage output is impossible to find a good median and much of what creates difficulty is that ratio between damage output and damage intake. It's a very small window in Warframe that I've really only seen around lvl 300-400 Solo and pretty much never happens in groups.

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It's about RoI 

Notice how both of the open worlds where launched on starter planets? 

It's because they want the maximum possible slice of the player base to experience them. DE could have just left them 100% newbie and locked them to the planets default level range but they didn't. They included established players as best they could, what they didn't do is crank it up to Sortie+ levels. 

So as far as open worlds go, they're probably going to keep working their way out to keep them as accessible to as large a portion of the player base as is possible. 

 

Now if you're looking for content aimed more at high level players with some spatterings for lower level players, The New War is probably going to be what plants crave. 

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DE needs to draw in new players or the game dies.  Mr25 players are not throwing very much money into the game any more - they have everything and they have ways of making plat in game.

DE is a company and wants to make profit.  So they should.  It’s the mr5 players who are spending real money here.  They’ve decided they like the game enough to stick around and need lots of things like slots and have no way of farming the plat in game yet. 

Please remember there’s a business model here.  And veterans are not the priority.  Deal with it.

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2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

A) Maintaining three different builds because every faction requires a different elemental pack is pretty min-maxy. Especially since elemental builds also have status effects with different gameplay, which could end up getting sacrificed in exchange for viability. 

B) You're immediately leaping to the conclusion that the people who were complaining about getting insta-killed were standing still, and putting no effort in their survival. Not everyone is experiencing the game the same way. Variations in builds can make for a huge difference in gameplay difficulty. As said before, veterans are able to put in sub-optimal builds and build the challenge for themselves. Try doing Orb Vallis with only bows and see how you fare once the nullifier bubbles start popping up everywhere. 

There has been no argument as to why it should be the casual players who need to change -their- playstyle to suit the 'veterans' needs, and not the other way around.

If you could bring the same weapon build to every encounter and have the outcome be the exact same, at some point is that not boring monotonous gameplay? We have the freedom to make various effective builds because that spices up the encounter. Not all of them are going to work all of the time and that's fine.

In the complaint threads I was only observing the common solution presented by those who claim they weren't having a problem and that was better mobility. There could have been a variety of factors as to why the others were dying but who knows. Sure you can bring a bow to fight a bunch of nullifiers but that doesn't seem like a good idea and if things get too difficult, you can't complain because you made it that way. That's like using puncture to take down shields. In this case a bow would probably still be good for heavy targets so the smart move would be to accompany it with something that can clear the nullifier bubbles.

When the vast majority of the game is made easy, are casuals players not satisfied? At some point every veteran was a casual player that simply played enough to gather a wide variety of builds until they were ready for something beyond the star chart which is what PoE and Fortuna should be (and chronologically speaking, they are).

Fortuna is merely a small slice of what Warframe has to offer. Personally I feel it's deceptive marketing on DE's part to advertise PoE and Fortuna the way they do because these places do nothing for new players but that's business so I can't blame them. They login, see the cool stuff, don't get that far and leave instead of working their way up through the star chart to get the full experience however this is more the fault of the early game not giving proper guidance..

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We could just get bounties with higher lvls or something similar, while keeping these ones. If what we have is good for new players, that's nice, but it doesn't mean DE should forget about the rest.

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I don't get how it's catering to new players when Vallis enemies are still egregiously harder than things of ostensibly the same level.

That just doesn't make sense. 35 should be 35. Vallis 35 should not be sortie-grade.

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Il y a 8 heures, Slimspadey101 a dit :

 these "veterans" no longer have any idea what its like to be a lower level player.

I have started a new account and realized that you only need to see a pair of videos on youtube to know which weapons to craft od how to do a basic build to blow up all the start chart in 2-3 weeks.
The first day on fortuna I went to Temple of profit after complete the lv 50 bounty and just realized that scaling was incredible fast, in less than 15 mins I was facing lv 100+ enemies which had a variety of attacks and a decent ammount of damage and I felt like I finally had something instresting to do besides killing the hydrolyst alone, now thanks to this nerf Orb Valis has turned into a Tony Hawk game mode for warframe.

You know why are veterans so disgusted with the difficulty of the game? because we don´t have a mission or something that needs all the gear we have gather after months or even years grinding, we don´t have a challenge for our current level, we are literally like Saitama, bored of kiling every foe with 1 punch and wondering if some day we are going to get a figth with someone with our same level and Fortuna its like his dream figthing the subterraneans. I don´t really care about new players, I just want something to do in this game and i think warframe have already enougth content for new players but nothing for the end.

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The damage didn't need to be lowered overall. Some units yes like the hitscan ones. Everyone else was fine. Plus the bugs of some of the outdoor turrets shooting through walls and downing you in one hit like the snipers.

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il y a une heure, DeltaPangaea a dit :

I don't get how it's catering to new players when Vallis enemies are still egregiously harder than things of ostensibly the same level.

That just doesn't make sense. 35 should be 35. Vallis 35 should not be sortie-grade.

Just get good, please. There was no difficulties at all. The only thing they should do is just make the enemy's on the quest a little easier not nerf Fortuna completely.

The enemy there just have other way to attack us and have some CC . I was having so fun, because I never playing to my full potential for a long time. The Temple and the high alert bounty's scaling so fast, but now they're just meh.

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I'll kick myself in the head for this, but I'll throw in my two cents.

It seems like a lot of the people with issues are the ones that know how to mod themselves out, or know where to look to mod themselves out. Even starting early on you can get your hands on some pretty good stuff if you know where and how to look for it. Valgaarv proves this issue with his post about how he started a new account recently and was still able to, with the aid of two YouTube videos, be able to destroy level 100 enemies in Fortuna. The thing is he knew to go look for that info, he knew where to look and he had experience with the game to probably be able to efficiently farm what he needed.

I don't personally have an issue with the nerf, aside from once in a while thinking it was BS that I was effectively one-shot by something or stagger/stun-locked literally to death I had no issue before or after this nerf. As a disclaimer I do play a lot of Saryn and similar frames. High damage, and if built right high survivability. And I think that's part of the issue. The game isn't tooled in any sense of the word for the sheer power most decently modded warframes/weapons have. Tigris Prime, Arca Plasmor, Lanka, Attarax, Hek etc. the list goes on. You can go onto any "top 10" video or any "beginner's guide to x" and find a list of ridiculous combos for ridiculous weapons and abilities that will literally melt or one-shot enemies that most people will never end up facing and do so tens of times over in a single shot.

I do think it'd be neat if they added something akin to sortie-level bountied. Basically just give us the current list of 5 "normal" bounties and then take that same list and make them "elite" bounties with slightly better rewards but give them sortie conditions and levels. If they did that I think it'd stop most of the complaining people seem to have. It'd also be a pretty quick solution to it. Just slap some sortie modifiers on the bounty and bump the level up. The same issue would arise of some frames/weapon combos being able to absolutely demolish anyway, but it'd be something I guess.

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9 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I took a look at your profile ingame OP. I'm sorry, you can't say Orb Vallis is a damn snorefest when several of your more used frames, including Ember, Saryn, and Mesa, have an absurd amount more kills than any of your other owned and played frames. Your most used melee weapon is also the Atterax! The game isn't supposed to be designed around press-4-to-win noobery, so of course you're going to think Orb Vallis isn't catering to you, when you can nuke everything miles away by mindlessly pressing one button, while everyone gets to sit around and let the game play itself.

Don't think I didn't check your profile either @Arc2199, you're currently using Mesa (as of writing this), and Saryn has a huge deal more kills than anything else that you own. Orb Vallis wasn't, and shouldn't be, made for people like you.

You two are your own worst enemies.

Have you considered trying other frames in Orb Vallis before making this complaint? I took Nekros Prime there earlier to try and grind hard for those toroids, and I can say that if you don't stay on top of summoning and maintaining shadows (assuming you're using Shield of Shadows), enemies are going to deny you any kind of foothold without you having to die first.

The frame that I have the most kills on is probably Saryn too...that doesn't mean I don't play other frames in Orb Vallis - Saryn is just my ESO frame. 

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6 hours ago, Valgaarv said:

...
You know why are veterans so disgusted with the difficulty of the game? because we don´t have a mission or something that needs all the gear we have gather after months or even years grinding, we don´t have a challenge for our current level....

This is the completely wrong attitude, veterans have all the power in their gear to make the game as easy or challenging as they desire.  This means we do have all the challenge we can possibly hope for with the gear, the game just isn't designed around using all that gear at the same time (though ROFL stomping stuff can be fun too now and again).

 

Look at it from DEs point of view.  If you look at steams percentage of achievements (given it is a percentage its likely similar across all ways to play) only 7.5% have reached mastery rank 10 (Seeker), 4.2% mastery rank 15 (Gold Hunter), 2.3% have reached mastery rank 20 (Silver Tiger).  Now if you remove the obvious hacked achievements of 1.2% (that apparently have gotten mastery rank 30), that leaves a very tiny percentage of players to spend essentially 6+ months of work for.

Now on top of that DE knows the veterans have the ability to make it however much fun/challenge they want it to be for themselves.

Would you then focus on stuff for that 2-6% of players?

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